Pitcher fatigue

dackle · 11-22-2014, 11:01 AM

Hi, I'm managing the Blue Jays in a 1986 replay, and finding that pitcher fatigue ratings are preventing me from getting enough work for Mark Eichhorn, who in real life pitched 157 innings in 69 relief appearances. I'm about 50 games into the replay and Eichhorn is on pace for 65 games and 110 innings. The problem is the other guys on the pitching staff are being overworked to absorb those 47 innings, and I'm losing 47 innings from a guy with a 1.72 ERA in real life.

I have tried letting him throw as many innings as possible when he is rested, or having him pitch 2 innings every other day. Either way he pitching a bit too often when he is not 100% rested, and he is still not getting enough innings.

When I have brought him in and just let him pitch until he is tired, he has only managed to pitch 3 innings twice in 20 games, whereas in real life he had 26 games of 3+ innings and 6 games of 4+ innings. Mark Eichhorn 1986 Pitching Gamelogs | Baseball-Reference.com

Any suggestions?

Honorable_Pawn · 11-22-2014, 11:33 AM

Put pitch counts on your starter and set his usage to "use more often".

RchW · 11-22-2014, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dackle

Hi, I'm managing the Blue Jays in a 1986 replay, and finding that pitcher fatigue ratings are preventing me from getting enough work for Mark Eichhorn, who in real life pitched 157 innings in 69 relief appearances. I'm about 50 games into the replay and Eichhorn is on pace for 65 games and 110 innings. The problem is the other guys on the pitching staff are being overworked to absorb those 47 innings, and I'm losing 47 innings from a guy with a 1.72 ERA in real life.

I have tried letting him throw as many innings as possible when he is rested, or having him pitch 2 innings every other day. Either way he pitching a bit too often when he is not 100% rested, and he is still not getting enough innings.

When I have brought him in and just let him pitch until he is tired, he has only managed to pitch 3 innings twice in 20 games, whereas in real life he had 26 games of 3+ innings and 6 games of 4+ innings. Mark Eichhorn 1986 Pitching Gamelogs | Baseball-Reference.com

Any suggestions?

Not so much a suggestion as information. You can't replicate game situations exactly as the 1986 season. Pitcher usage is very much dependent on game situations. If your SP pitches better or worse than he did in RL and if you lost the game before and used 4-5 MR vs a CG in 1986 the use of all pitchers on the roster will be different. This is repeated each game and each occurrence in each game that might call for Eichhorn. Do you have relief pitcher strategy settings that would sort of "force" usage the way you want? Even then the AI may not agree and may be justified in making a different strategic decision. It also may just get it wrong.

Is the roster identical and are all of the other pitchers exactly the same and having similar years as their RL counterparts? If not then Eichhorn's results will be different too.

Just some thoughts FWIW.

dackle · 11-22-2014, 12:29 PM

Well, I handle pitching by trying to distribute batters faced among my pitchers according to real-life proportions. If my pitchers faced a total of 6,090 batters in real life, Eichhorn faced 612 batters, and in OOTP the pitchers have faced 1,109 batters so far, then I would expect Eichhorn to have faced 612/6090 x 1109 = 111 batters so far. If he has only faced 95 batters, then I know he needs more work. Before each game I just sort my pitchers based on the amount of work they need, and then try and use the guys who need the most work.

The problem is that he always needs more work. I'm not too concerned with him pitching exactly 157 innings, but I know that regardless of how his playing time is measured, he is not pitching enough, and the reason I think is that OOTP's fatigue system is trying to limit him to a modern reliever's workload. Generally I don't have a problem with that, but it shouldn't be difficult to manage relievers with unusual playing time (eg Bob Stanley 1982: 48 games/0 starts/168.1 innings, or Mike Marshall 1974: 106 games/0 starts/208.1 innings).

What I'd really like to do is get Eichhorn a few five-inning starts here and there, but in relief he always seems to tire in his third inning of work, so I don't want to start him if he is only going to pitch 2 innings. Either that or I want him to pitch about 2 innings every other day (which would be 81 games, 162 innings), but when I've tried that he's frequently tired and I feel like I'm going to wreck his stats.

TomVeal · 11-22-2014, 01:07 PM

What's your setting for Pitcher Stamina (League Settings/Stats & AI)? If it's Low (the contemporary setting), that may explain your experience. Try Normal.

dackle · 11-22-2014, 01:45 PM

Thanks -- didn't know that option existed.

It is currently set on "normal". If I change the setting to "very high":

1. Will it let me use the pitchers (basically Eichhorn) the way I want to (ie to make their playing time closer to real life)?

2. I manage every Blue Jays game and the AI manages the rest of the league. Will the "very high" setting mess with the way the AI handles pitchers (ie everyone will start throwing complete games)?

Lukas Berger · 11-22-2014, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dackle

Thanks -- didn't know that option existed.

It is currently set on "normal". If I change the setting to "very high":

1. Will it let me use the pitchers (basically Eichhorn) the way I want to (ie to make their playing time closer to real life)?

2. I manage every Blue Jays game and the AI manages the rest of the league. Will the "very high" setting mess with the way the AI handles pitchers (ie everyone will start throwing complete games)?

I wouldn't change it to very high. That's for deadball era Cy Young type usage and it will affect the entire league.

Maybe just boost Eichorn's personal stamina in the editor.

TomVeal · 11-22-2014, 02:31 PM

Normal stamina should give reasonable results for the 1980's. "High" gets back to the 50's and 60's, "very high", as lukasberger says, to paleolithic baseball.

Editing Eichorn's own stamina sounds like the right solution. The game apparently credits him with less endurance than you believe is accurate.

dackle · 11-22-2014, 03:39 PM

Thanks, I think I'll just edit his stamina. It is currently set at "3", which seems a bit low given how many innings he pitched (including 2 weeks on the DL in real life).

Cryomaniac · 11-22-2014, 09:08 PM

IIRC OOTP intentionally under-rates relievers stamina to stop the AI using them as starters.

Tram2Whitaker · 11-22-2014, 11:27 PM

Just posing a question: How do you know that Eichorn wasn't throwing exhausted back in the day: I mean, how often did the Jays have their opponent so overmatched that he could have just tossed it over the plate? Or, how often did he just get lucky?

RchW · 11-23-2014, 12:07 AM

My impression of Eichhorn was that he didn't throw hard enough to be tired.

The Wolf · 11-23-2014, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rchw

my impression of eichhorn was that he didn't throw hard enough to be tired.

lol

The Wolf · 11-23-2014, 12:20 AM

For those who don't know the story:

Today in Jays History: Mark Eichhorn - Jays Journal - A Toronto Blue Jays Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and More

dackle · 11-23-2014, 12:26 PM

I guess the main issue was that a stamina of "3" wouldn't let him pitch more than a few innings per outing, whereas in real life more than a third of his appearances were 3 innings or longer.

John Cerutti was on the same team and faced almost the same number of hitters -- 616 for Cerutti vs 612 for Eichhorn. In my replay Cerutti always seems to be 100% rested and has faced 179 batters. Eichhorn is always tired and has faced 138 batters. I hate taking work away from Eichhorn (1.72 ERA) and giving it to Cerutti (4.15 ERA).

Cerutti's stamina is rated "15" because he started 20 games, but he was a pretty fragile pitcher, and could never really hold on to a steady spot in the rotation. He averaged 5.71 innings in his 20 starts (league average was 6.20), and 2.21 innings in 14 relief appearances, compared with 2.28 innings per relief appearance for Eichhorn.

I suppose it might help to have separate stamina ratings for starting and relieving. Cerutti would have below-average stamina as a starter, and he and Eichhorn would have the same stamina as relievers.

11-22-2014, 11:01 AM	#1
dackle Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 13	Pitcher fatigue Hi, I'm managing the Blue Jays in a 1986 replay, and finding that pitcher fatigue ratings are preventing me from getting enough work for Mark Eichhorn, who in real life pitched 157 innings in 69 relief appearances. I'm about 50 games into the replay and Eichhorn is on pace for 65 games and 110 innings. The problem is the other guys on the pitching staff are being overworked to absorb those 47 innings, and I'm losing 47 innings from a guy with a 1.72 ERA in real life. I have tried letting him throw as many innings as possible when he is rested, or having him pitch 2 innings every other day. Either way he pitching a bit too often when he is not 100% rested, and he is still not getting enough innings. When I have brought him in and just let him pitch until he is tired, he has only managed to pitch 3 innings twice in 20 games, whereas in real life he had 26 games of 3+ innings and 6 games of 4+ innings. Mark Eichhorn 1986 Pitching Gamelogs \| Baseball-Reference.com Any suggestions?

11-22-2014, 11:33 AM	#2
Honorable_Pawn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 6,407	Put pitch counts on your starter and set his usage to "use more often". __________________ PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam.

11-22-2014, 09:08 PM	#10
Cryomaniac Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hucknall, Notts, UK Posts: 4,902	IIRC OOTP intentionally under-rates relievers stamina to stop the AI using them as starters. __________________

11-22-2014, 11:27 PM	#11
Tram2Whitaker All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 619	Just posing a question: How do you know that Eichorn wasn't throwing exhausted back in the day: I mean, how often did the Jays have their opponent so overmatched that he could have just tossed it over the plate? Or, how often did he just get lucky? __________________ 404'd!

11-23-2014, 12:07 AM	#12
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	My impression of Eichhorn was that he didn't throw hard enough to be tired. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

11-22-2014, 12:29 PM	#4
dackle Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 13	Well, I handle pitching by trying to distribute batters faced among my pitchers according to real-life proportions. If my pitchers faced a total of 6,090 batters in real life, Eichhorn faced 612 batters, and in OOTP the pitchers have faced 1,109 batters so far, then I would expect Eichhorn to have faced 612/6090 x 1109 = 111 batters so far. If he has only faced 95 batters, then I know he needs more work. Before each game I just sort my pitchers based on the amount of work they need, and then try and use the guys who need the most work. The problem is that he always needs more work. I'm not too concerned with him pitching exactly 157 innings, but I know that regardless of how his playing time is measured, he is not pitching enough, and the reason I think is that OOTP's fatigue system is trying to limit him to a modern reliever's workload. Generally I don't have a problem with that, but it shouldn't be difficult to manage relievers with unusual playing time (eg Bob Stanley 1982: 48 games/0 starts/168.1 innings, or Mike Marshall 1974: 106 games/0 starts/208.1 innings). What I'd really like to do is get Eichhorn a few five-inning starts here and there, but in relief he always seems to tire in his third inning of work, so I don't want to start him if he is only going to pitch 2 innings. Either that or I want him to pitch about 2 innings every other day (which would be 81 games, 162 innings), but when I've tried that he's frequently tired and I feel like I'm going to wreck his stats.

11-22-2014, 01:07 PM	#5
TomVeal All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 1,242	What's your setting for Pitcher Stamina (League Settings/Stats & AI)? If it's Low (the contemporary setting), that may explain your experience. Try Normal.

11-22-2014, 01:45 PM	#6
dackle Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 13	Thanks -- didn't know that option existed. It is currently set on "normal". If I change the setting to "very high": 1. Will it let me use the pitchers (basically Eichhorn) the way I want to (ie to make their playing time closer to real life)? 2. I manage every Blue Jays game and the AI manages the rest of the league. Will the "very high" setting mess with the way the AI handles pitchers (ie everyone will start throwing complete games)?

11-22-2014, 02:31 PM	#8
TomVeal All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Spanaway, Washington Posts: 1,242	Normal stamina should give reasonable results for the 1980's. "High" gets back to the 50's and 60's, "very high", as lukasberger says, to paleolithic baseball. Editing Eichorn's own stamina sounds like the right solution. The game apparently credits him with less endurance than you believe is accurate.

11-22-2014, 03:39 PM	#9
dackle Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 13	Thanks, I think I'll just edit his stamina. It is currently set at "3", which seems a bit low given how many innings he pitched (including 2 weeks on the DL in real life).

11-23-2014, 12:26 PM	#15
dackle Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 13	I guess the main issue was that a stamina of "3" wouldn't let him pitch more than a few innings per outing, whereas in real life more than a third of his appearances were 3 innings or longer. John Cerutti was on the same team and faced almost the same number of hitters -- 616 for Cerutti vs 612 for Eichhorn. In my replay Cerutti always seems to be 100% rested and has faced 179 batters. Eichhorn is always tired and has faced 138 batters. I hate taking work away from Eichhorn (1.72 ERA) and giving it to Cerutti (4.15 ERA). Cerutti's stamina is rated "15" because he started 20 games, but he was a pretty fragile pitcher, and could never really hold on to a steady spot in the rotation. He averaged 5.71 innings in his 20 starts (league average was 6.20), and 2.21 innings in 14 relief appearances, compared with 2.28 innings per relief appearance for Eichhorn. I suppose it might help to have separate stamina ratings for starting and relieving. Cerutti would have below-average stamina as a starter, and he and Eichhorn would have the same stamina as relievers.