Cheating to the cellar?

cooper_gd · 07-16-2003, 08:08 AM

Usually I use my own judgment - but this is so tempting that I cannot think straight.

In my alternate history career league, my '07 Chicago Cubs are near the cellar. A few games out, but not far. Horrid injuries that ended the career of my 3B and C are the reason.

My temptation is this: If I finish last, I can be assured of the #1 pick - again. A few years ago my first overall was Tyrus Cobb. In 1908, I am sure that Tris Speaker will be the best player. Can you imagine an OF with Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker? Good god!

So, is it cheating to tank? Put my less effective pitchers as starters ~ rest the regulars more, et al? I have a feeling I know what the overall feeling is going to be ~ but imagine the temptation!

jaxmagicman · 07-16-2003, 08:30 AM

nah, i think you need to take Frank Baker at number 2

ChipperJones10 · 07-16-2003, 07:40 PM

It's not cheating, if it's something you can do in real life its not cheating. Besides, Speaker isn't a guarantee,

Skipaway · 07-16-2003, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChipperJones10
It's not cheating, if it's something you can do in real life its not cheating. ,

What a definition of cheating! Too bad it didn't say what should we think about something we can't do in real life. Can we simulate games real fast in real life? The game gives closers way too much more money than relievers as opposed to real life, the game itself is cheating! Heh.

One'd need to worry about cheating competing against other human players. Just consult other players to set up house rules. Most league got no anti-tanking rules I think. No rules, no cheating.

For solo games, who cares/knows. Set up your own standard.
What one might only need to be careful about is bragging. Not everyone is a power-gamer ( the type who'd use every trick to success in a game). Some people would just say the tricks you use are not their taste and leave it as that. But most rigid-thinking ones would accuse you to be " cheating" and try to banish you to hell. Just don't brag about your all powerful dynasty in front of those kind to avoide meaningless arguments.

HolyCow98 · 07-17-2003, 01:50 AM

In solo play....just have fun....the only standards or opinions that matter are your own. It sounds like you would have a good time having an outfield consisting of Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker...then go for it.

Remember that even if you get him, he may not turn out the way you expect....so you may get disappointed. I hope it works out for you either way.

cooper_gd · 07-17-2003, 08:02 AM

^ Yeah, I know . . . long time vet, just have not done much on the historical front.

Turns out that Speaker does not debut till '09. I did get Eddie Collins to play 2B tho'!

Drood · 07-17-2003, 03:18 PM

I wouldn't call deliberately tanking cheating.

Jonzard · 07-23-2003, 01:26 PM

I dont really consider tanking cheating

Sure you get the first pick, but you lose fans, money, and anger players in the process.

Jestre · 08-17-2003, 10:33 AM

Deliberately tanking is cheating. Only one owner has been thrown out of the league I commish and it was for deliberately tanking to get Babe Ruth. All the league officers agreed that that was the proper path to take. This is a league that has simmed 26 seasons starting with OOTP2. An owner should always field the best possible team with the only exceptions being an occasional sprinkling of young talent to get playing time. If you want the top pick then you should dump enough talent to honestly finish with the worst record. Trading away talent to finish last is not tanking and can be considered a viable strategy, playing less than your best lineup to finish lower in the standing IS tanking and should be punished by the league. One of the best examples of the trading away talent to build a good team was the Dallas Cowboys when Jones and Johnson took over and traded everyone away for draft picks, didnt hurt their fan base did it. As long as a real life team has a plan and proves it can work the fans will buy into it.

Delgadodawg · 08-20-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Drood
I wouldn't call deliberately tanking cheating.

I do. By deliberately losing you are giving yourself an unfair advantage over the rest of the league. (better draft position)

Also it gives an advantage to the team you are playing who maybe in a playoff race.

JoshEngleman · 08-20-2003, 11:29 PM

I don't think that tanking is cheating. Look at teams like the Cleveland Cavaliers this year. They were assembled to lose games, and didn't care because they wanted a chance at LeBron. If you need something like the to revitalize your team, then so be it.

Jestre · 08-21-2003, 07:07 AM

I was under the impression that the NBA used a lottery.... One of the main reasons for the lottery is to discourage tanking... The Penguins were suspected of tanking when Mario Lemieux was up for drafting, the NHL almost went to the lottery then and there was talk of sanctions against Pittsburgh... does that sound like tanking is accepted in sports????

cha0sbreaker · 08-24-2003, 01:22 AM

I don't think tanking to get a player is cheating because there is always a risk that they player you get suffers a career ending injury before accomplishing much or just never pans out in the first place.

Jestre · 08-24-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cha0sbreaker
I don't think tanking to get a player is cheating because there is always a risk that they player you get suffers a career ending injury before accomplishing much or just never pans out in the first place.

If tanking wasnt worth the risk nobody would do it... and this discussion would not be taking place, Tanking can be very profitable especially in historical leagues and anyone who doesnt think so is very inexperienced, very naive, or just a tanker.

jaxmagicman · 08-24-2003, 04:09 PM

The question is, was the rule in place to start the league? If it wasn't then there is no question. It is not cheating, because there was not a rule against. A good commisioner should set every rule out. There cannot be a general of do not do anything that gives you an unfair advantage over the rest of the league, because there is too much leeway in what can and cannot be considered cheating. A good set of rules need to be set and enforced.

Jestre · 08-24-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaxmagicman
The question is, was the rule in place to start the league? If it wasn't then there is no question. It is not cheating, because there was not a rule against. A good commisioner should set every rule out. There cannot be a general of do not do anything that gives you an unfair advantage over the rest of the league, because there is too much leeway in what can and cannot be considered cheating. A good set of rules need to be set and enforced.

I disagree, common sense rules shouldnt be necessary. Otherwise every league rulebook will resemble the US Internal Revenue Code. If I find a way to edit a players talent/ratings and still have the import work should that be acceptable just because there is no specific rule against it???? I commish a league and if any member cant use good sportsmanship and play like a gentleman/lady then I don't want them in my league, simple as that. Play hard, play fair.

jaxmagicman · 08-24-2003, 07:43 PM

But that is the point all togther. Common Sense, What is common sense to you won't be to somebody else. The rules for what is considered cheating need to be written. If my brother was the commishner of a league, it would be common sense to him that you can't sign Derek Jeter as a free agent if you already have A-rod. Even if you plan on moving jeter to 3rd or put him at DH. The rules need to be clear. There needs to be clear rules that cannot be misconstrued. To me tanking to the cellar is not cheating. To you it is. To me using your understanding of the dynamics of the game to take advantage of a newbie is cheating, to you it might not be. A good commisoner would be able to right down what cheating is and what it is not. Here is a list of rules I woluld have in place.

1. Do not edit your players abilities
2. Do not switch a player to DH to resign him and then switch him back
3. Do not switch a pitcher to Middle Reliver to resign them and swtich them back.
4. Do not purposely lose games to get a higher draft pick.
5. Do not conspire with other players in this league. (Example: Do not send them an email asking for them to trade you all of their good players for your bad ones)

Other than that, nothing else is considered cheating. That did not take long at all.

Jestre · 08-24-2003, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaxmagicman
To me tanking to the cellar is not cheating.

Interesting that someone that works in a law firm doesnt think Tanking is cheating, not surprising though.

The whole point to the draft is to give the most deserving team the best possible pick in order to make the league the most competitive, tanking cheats a more deserving team of its rightful pick. Ergo tanking is cheating, cut and dried.

jaxmagicman · 08-24-2003, 10:07 PM

Ok, you took my whole post out of context, I was making a point. My point was not wether tanking to the cellar is cheating, because we will never agree on that. My point is cheating is different in everyone's mind. That is why as a commisoner, the rules need to be laid out ahead of time.

Skipaway · 08-28-2003, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jestre

The whole point to the draft is to give the most deserving team the best possible pick in order to make the league the most competitive, tanking cheats a more deserving team of its rightful pick. Ergo tanking is cheating, cut and dried.

Interesting.

If you really want the league to be competitive, you should allow people to try any way they want. The more rules, the less teams can do. The less teams can do, the less competitive.

Stay on the moral ground would help your case more.

And yeah, I agree with jaxmagicman that there is no definite answer for this. Just ask the commisioner to have a rule in first place and it'd be fine.

07-16-2003, 08:30 AM	#2
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	nah, i think you need to take Frank Baker at number 2 __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

07-17-2003, 01:50 AM	#5
HolyCow98 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Douglasville, GA Posts: 2,735	In solo play....just have fun....the only standards or opinions that matter are your own. It sounds like you would have a good time having an outfield consisting of Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker...then go for it. Remember that even if you get him, he may not turn out the way you expect....so you may get disappointed. I hope it works out for you either way. __________________ NPBL Enjoying its 60th season Georgia GM

07-17-2003, 08:02 AM	#6
cooper_gd All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PopBunker.net Posts: 1,011	^ Yeah, I know . . . long time vet, just have not done much on the historical front. Turns out that Speaker does not debut till '09. I did get Eddie Collins to play 2B tho'! __________________

08-17-2003, 10:33 AM	#9
Jestre All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North Smithfield,Ri,USA Posts: 612	Deliberately tanking is cheating. Only one owner has been thrown out of the league I commish and it was for deliberately tanking to get Babe Ruth. All the league officers agreed that that was the proper path to take. This is a league that has simmed 26 seasons starting with OOTP2. An owner should always field the best possible team with the only exceptions being an occasional sprinkling of young talent to get playing time. If you want the top pick then you should dump enough talent to honestly finish with the worst record. Trading away talent to finish last is not tanking and can be considered a viable strategy, playing less than your best lineup to finish lower in the standing IS tanking and should be punished by the league. One of the best examples of the trading away talent to build a good team was the Dallas Cowboys when Jones and Johnson took over and traded everyone away for draft picks, didnt hurt their fan base did it. As long as a real life team has a plan and proves it can work the fans will buy into it. __________________ My eyes perceive the present, but my roots are imbedded deeply in the grandeur of the past. "Chief Meyers"

08-20-2003, 11:29 PM	#11
JoshEngleman Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 154	I don't think that tanking is cheating. Look at teams like the Cleveland Cavaliers this year. They were assembled to lose games, and didn't care because they wanted a chance at LeBron. If you need something like the to revitalize your team, then so be it. __________________ It's supposed to be a challenge, that's why its called a shortcut. If it were easy it would just be the way.

07-16-2003, 08:08 AM	#1
cooper_gd All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PopBunker.net Posts: 1,011	Cheating to the cellar? Usually I use my own judgment - but this is so tempting that I cannot think straight. In my alternate history career league, my '07 Chicago Cubs are near the cellar. A few games out, but not far. Horrid injuries that ended the career of my 3B and C are the reason. My temptation is this: If I finish last, I can be assured of the #1 pick - again. A few years ago my first overall was Tyrus Cobb. In 1908, I am sure that Tris Speaker will be the best player. Can you imagine an OF with Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker? Good god! So, is it cheating to tank? Put my less effective pitchers as starters ~ rest the regulars more, et al? I have a feeling I know what the overall feeling is going to be ~ but imagine the temptation! __________________

07-16-2003, 07:40 PM	#3
ChipperJones10 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 32	It's not cheating, if it's something you can do in real life its not cheating. Besides, Speaker isn't a guarantee,

07-17-2003, 03:18 PM	#7
Drood Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 425	I wouldn't call deliberately tanking cheating.

07-23-2003, 01:26 PM	#8
Jonzard Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,647	I dont really consider tanking cheating Sure you get the first pick, but you lose fans, money, and anger players in the process.

08-21-2003, 07:07 AM	#12
Jestre All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: North Smithfield,Ri,USA Posts: 612	I was under the impression that the NBA used a lottery.... One of the main reasons for the lottery is to discourage tanking... The Penguins were suspected of tanking when Mario Lemieux was up for drafting, the NHL almost went to the lottery then and there was talk of sanctions against Pittsburgh... does that sound like tanking is accepted in sports???? __________________ My eyes perceive the present, but my roots are imbedded deeply in the grandeur of the past. "Chief Meyers"

08-24-2003, 01:22 AM	#13
cha0sbreaker Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 20	I don't think tanking to get a player is cheating because there is always a risk that they player you get suffers a career ending injury before accomplishing much or just never pans out in the first place.

08-24-2003, 04:09 PM	#15
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	The question is, was the rule in place to start the league? If it wasn't then there is no question. It is not cheating, because there was not a rule against. A good commisioner should set every rule out. There cannot be a general of do not do anything that gives you an unfair advantage over the rest of the league, because there is too much leeway in what can and cannot be considered cheating. A good set of rules need to be set and enforced. __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

08-24-2003, 07:43 PM	#17
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	But that is the point all togther. Common Sense, What is common sense to you won't be to somebody else. The rules for what is considered cheating need to be written. If my brother was the commishner of a league, it would be common sense to him that you can't sign Derek Jeter as a free agent if you already have A-rod. Even if you plan on moving jeter to 3rd or put him at DH. The rules need to be clear. There needs to be clear rules that cannot be misconstrued. To me tanking to the cellar is not cheating. To you it is. To me using your understanding of the dynamics of the game to take advantage of a newbie is cheating, to you it might not be. A good commisoner would be able to right down what cheating is and what it is not. Here is a list of rules I woluld have in place. 1. Do not edit your players abilities 2. Do not switch a player to DH to resign him and then switch him back 3. Do not switch a pitcher to Middle Reliver to resign them and swtich them back. 4. Do not purposely lose games to get a higher draft pick. 5. Do not conspire with other players in this league. (Example: Do not send them an email asking for them to trade you all of their good players for your bad ones) Other than that, nothing else is considered cheating. That did not take long at all. __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

08-24-2003, 10:07 PM	#19
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	Ok, you took my whole post out of context, I was making a point. My point was not wether tanking to the cellar is cheating, because we will never agree on that. My point is cheating is different in everyone's mind. That is why as a commisoner, the rules need to be laid out ahead of time. __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.