Pete Rose: I changed my mind.

[Déjà Bru]

Pete Rose has served enough time for his "crime." 25 years of banishment from the sport that he loves, less than some murderers serve with good behavior, is long enough. Maybe it's the Tony Gwynn obituary that has prompted this thought; we need to treasure the true greats of baseball and doing so while they are alive (Rose is now 73!) would be nice.

Correct me if I am wrong: Rose bet on his Reds to win while he was their manager. Is that the extent of it? There is no evidence that he ever bet on them to lose and then tried to throw the game, correct? So what he did was to continue to try to win at all costs, as is proper, but he also tried to make a few bucks on the side as well? (Why he would need to do so and risk everything that he subsequently lost is another matter.)

If that is it, then he's been punished enough. Let him back into Baseball. Let's give honor to the all-time hits leader for an accomplishment attained on talent, desire, hard work, and hustle alone because there is no evidence that I have seen that he ever used PED's. And let him into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

[Orcin]

I second the motion.

[Westheim]

Great! Who's next? Shoeless Joe?

Chick Gandil?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Great! Who's next? Shoeless Joe?

Chick Gandil?

Those guys made a mockery of the game.....Pete did not.

By the way he managed the Bridgeport Bluefish to a 2-0 win yesterday!

[Dargone]

Nah, keep him out I say.

However, I'm very biased. I worked a few feet away from Pete Rose for over a year when I worked at the Forum Shops here in Vegas. He signs autographs/memorabilia at the sports memorabilia shop at the aforementioned Forum Shops (not sure if he still does). The guy was a major jackass to pretty much everyone including a co-worker who had no idea who he was.

Unlike Tony Gwynn, this guy is not a class act.

[wireman]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Pete Rose has served enough time for his "crime." 25 years of banishment from the sport that he loves, less than some murderers serve with good behavior, is long enough. Maybe it's the Tony Gwynn obituary that has prompted this thought; we need to treasure the true greats of baseball and doing so while they are alive (Rose is now 73!) would be nice.

Correct me if I am wrong: Rose bet on his Reds to win while he was their manager. Is that the extent of it? There is no evidence that he ever bet on them to lose and then tried to throw the game, correct? So what he did was to continue to try to win at all costs, as is proper, but he also tried to make a few bucks on the side as well? (Why he would need to do so and risk everything that he subsequently lost is another matter.)

If that is it, then he's been punished enough. Let him back into Baseball. Let's give honor to the all-time hits leader for an accomplishment attained on talent, desire, hard work, and hustle alone because there is no evidence that I have seen that he ever used PED's. And let him into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

I think the point is if you lose a lot of money betting on your own team, the bookies then own you. Also, it's not like he's been in prison for 25 years: He's doing fine, signing his name for $1 million-plus a year.

That having been said, I think he should be in the HOF.

[Caporegime]

Twenty years ago I would've argued with you, maybe even ten, but now?.... I agree. It has been long enough. I'm not defending what Rose did, but let's try to keep things in some sort of perspective here.

According to NY State Sex Offender Registry, there's a paroled child rapist living in the apartment house adjacent to mine. If human excrement like that can be given a second chance, why not Rose? This fiend actually spent less time in prison for first degree sodomy of a child than Rose has being banned from baseball. There's something inherently wrong with that, and it greatly offends my sense of justice.

[MorseMoose]

I'm on the side of let him in.

I've used the "he always bet to win" argument plenty of times, but then was pointed out that there were probably times in which he didn't bet on his team. I'm not sure exactly what that means, but I would guess there was probably some inside trading going on even if he never shared it. He knew when to "buy" and he knew when to "sell". Sure, it didn't always work out perfectly, but...I don't use that argument of "he always bet to win" anymore.

That said, he's "served" his time. I wonder if he'd give back his millions he's made since to be able to be apart of baseball again.

[Déjà Bru]

My thinking is this: There is no proof or even suspicion that any of his 4,256 hits came as a result of any form of cheating.

Therefore:

• His record is legitimate.
• This record should be recognized and celebrated.
• Proper recognition means inclusion of the record-holder in the HoF.

And in order to do that, Pete Rose must be reinstated in Baseball. It follows logically.

[John Madden]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

My thinking is this: There is no proof or even suspicion that any of his 4,256 hits came as a result of any form of cheating.

Therefore:

• His record is legitimate.
• This record should be recognized and celebrated.
• Proper recognition means inclusion of the record-holder in the HoF.

And in order to do that, Pete Rose must be reinstated in Baseball. It follows logically.

Pete Rose also broke a cardinal rule of baseball, with a well-known lifetime ban as a consequence. Therefore he does not belong in the baseball HoF while he is alive. It follows logically.

[John Madden]

To those saying "he's served his time" I say "No he hasn't." His "time" is very specifically "lifetime" and he's still alive, last I checked.

[pstrickert]

Questions I would pose: First, does the punishment fit the crime? Second, has the punishment served its purpose of protecting the integrity of the game (and, if it has, at what point does it outlive its utility)?

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by John Madden

To those saying "he's served his time" I say "No he hasn't." His "time" is very specifically "lifetime" and he's still alive, last I checked.

There's been a few people that have received life-time bans and have had them lifted. It's not like it would be unprecedented to have it lifted.

Heck, didn't Macho Man come back after he lost a retirement match?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

Questions I would pose: First, does the punishment fit the crime?

It does insofar as the MLB rules make the punishment for the offence crystal clear:

Originally Posted by Major League Rule 21(d)

(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES.

(1) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform, shall be declared ineligible for one year.

(2) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared permanently ineligible.

The rules couldn't be any clearer.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Great! Who's next? Shoeless Joe?

Chick Gandil?

Lumping Shoeless Joe in with Chick Gandil is as ludicrous as the crime Shoeless Joe didn't commit. He needs to be in the Hall of Fame without a sliver of a doubt in my mind.

[rudel.dietrich]

I would be very upset if he was allowed back into baseball. Betting is the worst kind of disease that can inflict the game and this is why you see people who are actually involved in decision making hand down such draconian penalties.

I really don't give two ****s if he never bet against his team. Just being associated with gambling is enough. As a player, manager, front office, league office etc. If you receive a pay check from the league, then just stay away from sports gambling.

Back when Rose played, salaries were high but not like today. If you got into too much debt with the kind of people who run sports betting, then there is a much higher likley hood of fixing games to ensure your legs aren't broken and your kids don't vanish.

I have a hard time understanding why people who love sports cannot seem to understanding that being associated with gambling is far worse than cheating.

The very fabric of sport is the essence of competition. Having even the fainest hint of the result being artificial stains and tears that fabric.
Once that happens then it is no longer a sport. It is the WWE

[ukhotstove]

He knew the rules (unless he was stupid) and knew the punishment, he broke the rules so must face the punishment.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

(Why he would need to do so and risk everything that he subsequently lost is another matter.)

Some people have that personality disorder where they need to be 'risky' in order to feel life. Bungee jumpers, gamblers, etc. Rose seemed to get that thrill while playing baseball, but when he stopped playing, seems gambling filled that void. Hell, the GOAT of basketball Michael Jordan has the same flaw.

He shouldn't be penalized for having a flaw in his armor.

But I will say it again everytime this comes up...if Rose gets leniency, then they better have a ceremony for BUCK WEAVER, whose crime was not ratting out his own players with circumstantial evidence.

[stl jason]

Originally Posted by Dargone

Nah, keep him out I say.

However, I'm very biased. I worked a few feet away from Pete Rose for over a year when I worked at the Forum Shops here in Vegas. He signs autographs/memorabilia at the sports memorabilia shop at the aforementioned Forum Shops (not sure if he still does). The guy was a major jackass to pretty much everyone including a co-worker who had no idea who he was.

Unlike Tony Gwynn, this guy is not a class act.

I wouldn't say you're biased. You basically saw Rose be exactly who he really is. Of course, not being an arrogant ass isn't part of the criteria for HOF induction (if it were, there's probably a bunch more already in there that wouldn't have made it). That being said, while his stats more than qualify him for a spot, Pete Rose accepted the lifetime ban. Nothing else needs to be said.

I think if he would have admitted what he did from the start, acted with a bit more humility over the years, and displayed a bit of remorse (whether real or just an act) that ban would probably have been lifted by now and he'd be in the Hall already. Instead he chose to deny it for well over a decade after the ban; show up at MLB events/HOF inductions to sign autographs, and generally be an irritant to the powers-that-be. Not a recipe for forgiveness.

[Splitter24]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

Lumping Shoeless Joe in with Chick Gandil is as ludicrous as the crime Shoeless Joe didn't commit. He needs to be in the Hall of Fame without a sliver of a doubt in my mind.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3625734