Do we have one too many pitching ratings?

ConStar · 06-13-2014, 05:00 AM

Speaking specifically here of the "Stuff," "Movement" and "Control" ratings, along with velocity. Some of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I have a relief guy whose rated velocity is 100. He regularly hits 102 on a radar gun. But his "Stuff" is rated just at 13/13 (on a 1-20 scale). He has three pitches, none of them special.

His line for the year so far: 22 IP, 21 H, 17 K, roughly a 3.50 ERA. He put up similar ratios last year.

Now, in the real world, if you're hitting 102 on the gun, and you're not throwing it halfway up the screen, people are going to be striking out. Often. I struggle to figure out how "Stuff" can be so low when the velocity is high.

If the argument is "Well, he must throw 100 mph dead straight," then that's what we have the Movement category for. But I've also got a different guy with 17 movement (again, 1-20 scale) who barely strikes anyone out.

To me, if you've got great Stuff, you either throw hard or your pitches move like crazy, and in either case, you should be striking out the world. If these three categories are supposed to work in concert with one another, either one of them means something different than what I grew up with in the game, or the back end of the programming isn't working well.

As much as I like more information, more features, more ratings, it seems to me that velocity should be a component of Stuff, not its own standalone category, and if velocity is high, so too should be Stuff.

DFyvie · 06-13-2014, 05:28 AM

I understand it as Stuff is an overall rating of the guy's pitches. You said he has three pitches and that none of them are special.. that is the reason his stuff is only at 13/20. I assumed that the higher the quality of pitches.. the higher the stuff.. and therefor the higher the frequency of strikeouts.

I also assumed that movement reduces the batter's chance of a clean hit. So if your pitcher has average stuff but crazy movement, the batter will make contact.. but will accomplish little more than ground-outs and pop-outs. Think Dicky with the Mets (not so much with the Jays).

SirMichaelJordan · 06-13-2014, 07:31 AM

Out of the Park Baseball Manual

Quote:

Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire. Think of it as essentially how a pitcher "puts it all together." Stuff directly affects the number of strikeouts a pitcher throws. Stuff is calculated based on a combination of his individual pitch ratings and the velocity with which he throws.

Relief pitchers receive a small bonus to stuff, to reflect the fact that batters get fewer looks at their pitches and have less of a chance to adjust to them. OOTP displays that bonus in the form of increased Stuff ratings. This bonus is heavily tied into the strength of a reliever's top two pitches, since relievers have much less incentive to mix in their weaker offerings. This means that a pitcher with a strong fastball, a strong slider, and a weak changeup might make for an average starting pitcher but a great reliever. You get to decide how he provides the most useful fit for your team. You can see the change in a pitcher's Stuff rating if you change the player's position from SP to MR and back.

Quote:

Movement is a measure of the movement on a pitcher's pitches. It is harder for batters to make good contact with pitches that have good movement. As a result, pitchers with high Movement ratings tend to give up fewer home runs. Movement is calculated based on factors including ground ball %.

Quote:

Control is a measure of a pitcher's accuracy. Pitchers with good Control ratings tend to walk fewer batters.

Quote:

Velocity is a measure of how fast a pitcher throws. Velocity is not measured according to the standard rating system, but rather is measured in miles per hour. Velocity can change over time, with younger players typically gaining velocity as they fill out, and losing velocity due to age or injury. Velocity is important for certain pitches that are heavily dependent upon velocity. For example, a fastball relies heavily upon velocity, while a knuckleball does not. Velocity is factored into the overall Stuff rating, as well as the ratings of individual pitches.

ConStar · 06-13-2014, 02:47 PM

I've read the manual's explanation. What I'm saying is the manual doesn't make sense in regards to how it works in the real world.

Prime example: If you throw a 100 mph four-seamer with decent control, you have a 20/20 fastball. That's just not really up for debate, because that's how it works in baseball. Now, you can throw 100 mph with terrible control and great movement, and still get results. But Control and Movement are already categories unto themselves.

My complaint/analysis is mostly contained to the fastball pitch by itself. "Stuff" becomes more relevant when discussing sliders, sinkers, curveballs, etc. Hypothetically, you could have a slider that doesn't break much, but when it does break, it does it all at once, right at the end of the pitch. So overall Movement rating for that pitch could be low, but because all the movement happens in the hitting zone, the pitch is very effective, thus it is better "Stuff."

Fastballs? That doesn't apply. If your fastball has even some movement, you're already ahead of the game.

When I see pitchers with velocity ratings in the high 90s, and when I play out a game I see them hitting 101, 102, etc., on the gun, then I check their ratings and they get 11/20 on their fastball and never strike anyone out, that doesn't pass the logic test.

byzeil · 06-13-2014, 02:58 PM

The manual says that "Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire." and is "essentially how a pitcher 'puts it all together.' " so it isn't the measure of each pitch individually (ie; fastball) but the combination of his pitches and how he uses them with each other. You should not look at/analyze STUFF based on any individual pitch. A pitcher can have a 100mph FB with good control and/or movement and still not strike out a ton because the hitter can sit on his FB. With good STUFF he has a good mix of pitches and that makes his 100mph FB harder to hit and leads to more Ks. In real life major league hitters can hit any fastball but what makes them special is being able to adjust to the variety of pitches, the pitchers STUFF.

ctorg · 06-13-2014, 03:06 PM

I've also wondered about the imperfect translation of pitching into ratings. It's not really like hitting, where skills can be more easily parsed apart. With pitching, different pitches have different skill sets associated with them. You can't have a good curve ball if you don't have good movement, and you probably don't have a good fastball if you throw 85 MPH max.

It's one reason I wasn't very high on individual pitch ratings when they were introduced. The way I see it, individual pitches can't be summarized with a single number. Each pitch should be rated for velocity, control, and movement. Or maybe each pitch's rating should be determined by a player's v/c/m ratings. Or, there should be velocity/control/movement ratings without pitch ratings. Even then, there is a lot of imperfection, and other problems are created. Pitching is just difficult to convert into ratings.

ConStar · 06-13-2014, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

The manual says that "Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire." and is "essentially how a pitcher 'puts it all together.' " so it isn't the measure of each pitch individually (ie; fastball) but the combination of his pitches and how he uses them with each other. You should not look at/analyze STUFF based on any individual pitch. A pitcher can have a 100mph FB with good control and/or movement and still not strike out a ton because the hitter can sit on his FB. With good STUFF he has a good mix of pitches and that makes his 100mph FB harder to hit and leads to more Ks. In real life major league hitters can hit any fastball but what makes them special is being able to adjust to the variety of pitches, the pitchers STUFF.

Then, as an alternative, if you can throw 100 mph, your fastball rating has to be no lower than, say, 15/20. The primary attribute of a good fastball is speed, with control second and movement third, but control and movement already have their own separate categories.

There have been guys without much of a "repertoire" be highly effective, especially closers. Some just have one pitch, most just two. Their "repertoire" is more concerned with their control, movement as well as the knowledge of how to pitch a guy. If the latter is what "Stuff" really is (i.e., the mental approach) then it probably should be renamed.

As it stands, velocity by itself is almost treated as irrelevant unless the "Stuff" rating is also high. I just find it unrealistic that a guy who can touch triple digits, with good control, has low strikeout numbers.

RchW · 06-13-2014, 05:15 PM

Two points.

First, any discussion about ratings without reference to scale is difficult to have. I use 1-5 so there is very little info for me to separate similar pitchers. I have to look at relevant stats and the wording of the scouting report. On a 1-100 scale my 4 stuff pitcher could be 66-85 (my guess). That's above average to borderline ace.

Second, it is tough to use a ratings system to present a complete picture of of pitching. However I like the pitch ratings and the fact that Markus has confirmed that pitch ratings carry some additional weight vs stuff movement control ratings. I consider the connection between pitch ratings and "stuff" to be easily observed IRL. A 100 MPH fastball without an effective change of speed/location pitch is useless over any significant time. Alternatively a 93-95 MPH fastball in combination with an effective change up, splitter or curve is more effective and those pitchers should have a better "stuff" rating. The question then becomes quality or quantity? Are 3 very good pitches better than 2 good and 3 average pitches.

OOTP doesn't address command vs control. Control is throwing strikes. Command is locating pitches within the strike zone and on the edge. Pitchers with better command don't need the same level raw stuff to be effective. In OOTP terms they should have the best stuff which may be counterintuitive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

you probably don't have a good fastball if you throw 85 MPH max.

Correct but who is the better pitcher, Brandon League or Mark Buehrle? It's not close IMO. Buehrle can't be properly represented in OOTP because the stuff rating required would return too few H/9. Is there a "weak contact" rating somewhere in-game?

RchW · 06-13-2014, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConStar

As it stands, velocity by itself is almost treated as irrelevant unless the "Stuff" rating is also high. I just find it unrealistic that a guy who can touch triple digits, with good control, has low strikeout numbers.

Something is weird here. I have no guys with "high" velocity and low K/9. Searching by high K/9 includes a wider range but predominantly higher velocity higher stuff pitchers. I searched by several other patterns and nothing looked strange. So there is a direct correlation between fast ball velocity, pitch rating and stuff. Also note that pitchers with good cutters and no or average fastballs are in the high K/9 range.

Is there something different about your league set up?

glenstein · 06-13-2014, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byzeil

A pitcher can have a 100mph FB with good control and/or movement and still not strike out a ton because the hitter can sit on his FB.

Yes, that is a possible outcome, but not a probable one. ConStar's point is that the frequency of this outcome in OOTP is much higher than in the real world.

And I see that many people "thanked" SirMichaelJordan for quoting the explanations of stuff/movement/velo, but that seems to miss the point. Obviously stuff is not synonymous with velocity but there's nevertheless an integral relation between the two. Not every pitcher with high stuff rating should have high velocity, but most pitchers with high velocity should have high stuff.

RchW · 06-13-2014, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenstein

Yes, that is a possible outcome, but not a probable one. ConStar's point is that the frequency of this outcome in OOTP is much higher than in the real world.

And I see that many people "thanked" SirMichaelJordan for quoting the explanations of stuff/movement/velo, but that seems to miss the point. Obviously stuff is not synonymous with velocity but there's nevertheless an integral relation between the two. Not every pitcher with high stuff rating should have high velocity, but most pitchers with high velocity should have high stuff.

Read post 9.

Lukas Berger · 06-13-2014, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Is there a "weak contact" rating somewhere in-game?

Movement is essentially the "weak contact" rating.

glenstein · 06-13-2014, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Read post 9.

I did. I wanted to check my own game to see the stats for myself but for my own idiosyncratic reasons I can't access it at the moment (I can explain it if you want, but it will be boring).

I know I've sorted by velocity and seen guys with low stuff, but I haven't compared K/9 to MPH. It would be weird for them to have low stuff but still get high K/9's since stuff is supposed to dictate K rates. Your description doesn't match my experience of the game, I'm not sure what you consider a "high" K/9, and I have no way of checking it right now, so I just left it alone. But if you want to post a screen shot or something, that'd be nice.

glenstein · 06-14-2014, 06:30 PM

Also, Constar, it looks like you're being offered mutually exclusive answers. On the one hand, you shouldn't necessarily be surprised if many high MPH throwers don't get many K's, because there's more to K's than just throwing hard. On the other hand, high MPH throwers supposedly do rack up K's as a fact of the matter so there's nothing to complain about. But those can't both be true.

ConStar · 06-14-2014, 10:42 PM

I don't think this would irk me nearly as much if the velocity rates were a little more realistic. I play out every game in my organization, and occasionally watch games between other teams and their minor leagues. In two seasons, I've counted around 30 guys who can consistently hit 98-100 and occasionally touch 102, 103 (assuming the radar gun is correct on the pitch locator graphic).

That's Aroldis Chapman territory. I will agree that a guy throwing 90-95 will have a hard time striking out batters if he's too predictable, or throws too straight, but Major League hitters have trouble with Chapman even if he were to tell them beforehand where he was going to throw it. His career K/IP is somewhere around 15.

So two things are going on here: One, there are too many guys in my league throwing three-digit gas, and two, the ones that do aren't properly rewarded for it.

Last season, the closers of both my single-A teams would regularly hit 100, and their K/IP ratios were just over 7, because their Stuff rating was middling.

I agree with a post further up the thread that the ideal solution would be for each pitch to have its own Stuff/Movement/Control/Velocity ratings. I also hope for a future version of the game where we can call pitches. That way, predictability would become an issue for human-controlled games, and Catcher Ability ratings would affect it in auto-played games, thereby offsetting high Stuff/Velocity ratings if either I or my AI employees got too dependent on one pitch.

OakDragon · 06-14-2014, 11:15 PM

Part of the issue is that "Stuff", "Movement", and Control" in OOTP are not meant to be what they are in real life. They are names for ratings... ratings whose main purpose is to generate the proper stats. They might just as well be ratings, A, B, and, C, but Stuff, Movement and Control are easier for us to remember and distinguish.

sc_superstar · 06-15-2014, 12:19 AM

Velocity =/= extreme strikeout numbers, maybe his fastball isnt his out pitch, maybe his knee bucking curve or changeup is, I mean if you have the choice between lets say a 100MPH fastball that strikes out 25 guys and gives up 5 flyballs or an offspeed pitch that generates 20 ground balls 2 fly balls and 8 strikeouts, which one would you throw with 2 strikes? If you really wanted to test this you would make two identical leagues with two identical pitchers with different velocity ratings and compared the K/9 numbers over multiple seasons, im sure the higher velocity pitcher would have a higher K/9.

Like others have said stuff is a combination of his entire pitch assortment, but his other ratings would have an effect indirectly as well.

If you broke down the numbers beyond what we can see in game im sure it would all make more sense to us.

Hypothetically lets assume a pitcher has a fastball, curveball, and changeup

The fastball has high velocity, low movment and low control (100+MPH)
The curveball has low velocity, high movement and average control (70-75MPH)
The change-up has low velocity high movement and very high control (75-80 MPH)

By looking at it all as a package you end up with a pitcher with:
- Below average to average stuff since he has very little control or movment on his fastball, and his other two pitches dont look like strikout pitches, but more pitch to contact ones.
- Above average to high movment since his two offspeed pitches have alot of break
- High control since he has spot on command of his offspeed pitches

But his velocity is still 100MPH because his fastball does hit it.

ConStar · 06-15-2014, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

Velocity =/= extreme strikeout numbers, maybe his fastball isnt his out pitch, maybe his knee bucking curve or changeup is, I mean if you have the choice between lets say a 100MPH fastball that strikes out 25 guys and gives up 5 flyballs or an offspeed pitch that generates 20 ground balls 2 fly balls and 8 strikeouts, which one would you throw with 2 strikes? If you really wanted to test this you would make two identical leagues with two identical pitchers with different velocity ratings and compared the K/9 numbers over multiple seasons, im sure the higher velocity pitcher would have a higher K/9.

Like others have said stuff is a combination of his entire pitch assortment, but his other ratings would have an effect indirectly as well.

If you broke down the numbers beyond what we can see in game im sure it would all make more sense to us.

Hypothetically lets assume a pitcher has a fastball, curveball, and changeup

The fastball has high velocity, low movment and low control (100+MPH)
The curveball has low velocity, high movement and average control (70-75MPH)
The change-up has low velocity high movement and very high control (75-80 MPH)

By looking at it all as a package you end up with a pitcher with:
- Below average to average stuff since he has very little control or movment on his fastball, and his other two pitches dont look like strikout pitches, but more pitch to contact ones.
- Above average to high movment since his two offspeed pitches have alot of break
- High control since he has spot on command of his offspeed pitches

But his velocity is still 100MPH because his fastball does hit it.

This answer, while a good explanation of what is likely going on in the background of the game's ratings system, sort of highlights the need to have the four ratings assigned on a per-pitch basis. You're describing a process I'd call "pitch intelligence" more than what I think most scouts would call "stuff," the latter of which seems to include movement, control and velocity along with the feel for when to throw what, all at the same time.

As an aside, as I was reading the description of your fictional pitcher, I kept picturing a poor man's Trevor Hoffman with that changeup out-pitch. His career K/IP was 9.4.

Tram2Whitaker · 06-15-2014, 09:11 AM

I think that velocity is for looks only. In the game, you can't choose the individual pitch; so even in PbP mode, the radar gun tells you, without looking at the location chart, what type of pitch they threw. 100 mph/fastball, 89 mph/change, 92 mph/slider

Marinersfan51 · 06-15-2014, 06:13 PM

Velocity doesn't necessarily equal strikeouts, Yordano Ventura is one of the hardest throwing starters in baseball with a fastball that averages 96 MPH and hits 100+ and he only has about 8 K/9. Kelvin Herrera is averaging 97 MPH on his two seamer fastball, second highest in baseball this season out of the bullpen, and has a K/9 of 7.12 right now. Carlos Martinez has the second hardest overall fastball this year at 96.6 MPH and has a 7.27 K/9. I think you get my point.

For reference Aroldis Chapman's fastball average 98.4 MPH last season. Nobody throws 100+ consistently in real life.

06-13-2014, 05:00 AM	#1
ConStar Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 205	Do we have one too many pitching ratings? Speaking specifically here of the "Stuff," "Movement" and "Control" ratings, along with velocity. Some of this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I have a relief guy whose rated velocity is 100. He regularly hits 102 on a radar gun. But his "Stuff" is rated just at 13/13 (on a 1-20 scale). He has three pitches, none of them special. His line for the year so far: 22 IP, 21 H, 17 K, roughly a 3.50 ERA. He put up similar ratios last year. Now, in the real world, if you're hitting 102 on the gun, and you're not throwing it halfway up the screen, people are going to be striking out. Often. I struggle to figure out how "Stuff" can be so low when the velocity is high. If the argument is "Well, he must throw 100 mph dead straight," then that's what we have the Movement category for. But I've also got a different guy with 17 movement (again, 1-20 scale) who barely strikes anyone out. To me, if you've got great Stuff, you either throw hard or your pitches move like crazy, and in either case, you should be striking out the world. If these three categories are supposed to work in concert with one another, either one of them means something different than what I grew up with in the game, or the back end of the programming isn't working well. As much as I like more information, more features, more ratings, it seems to me that velocity should be a component of Stuff, not its own standalone category, and if velocity is high, so too should be Stuff.

06-13-2014, 02:58 PM	#5
byzeil Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: NJ, US Posts: 2,006	The manual says that "Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire." and is "essentially how a pitcher 'puts it all together.' " so it isn't the measure of each pitch individually (ie; fastball) but the combination of his pitches and how he uses them with each other. You should not look at/analyze STUFF based on any individual pitch. A pitcher can have a 100mph FB with good control and/or movement and still not strike out a ton because the hitter can sit on his FB. With good STUFF he has a good mix of pitches and that makes his 100mph FB harder to hit and leads to more Ks. In real life major league hitters can hit any fastball but what makes them special is being able to adjust to the variety of pitches, the pitchers STUFF. Last edited by byzeil; 06-13-2014 at 03:08 PM.

06-13-2014, 03:06 PM	#6
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I've also wondered about the imperfect translation of pitching into ratings. It's not really like hitting, where skills can be more easily parsed apart. With pitching, different pitches have different skill sets associated with them. You can't have a good curve ball if you don't have good movement, and you probably don't have a good fastball if you throw 85 MPH max. It's one reason I wasn't very high on individual pitch ratings when they were introduced. The way I see it, individual pitches can't be summarized with a single number. Each pitch should be rated for velocity, control, and movement. Or maybe each pitch's rating should be determined by a player's v/c/m ratings. Or, there should be velocity/control/movement ratings without pitch ratings. Even then, there is a lot of imperfection, and other problems are created. Pitching is just difficult to convert into ratings. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

06-15-2014, 09:11 AM	#19
Tram2Whitaker All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 619	I think that velocity is for looks only. In the game, you can't choose the individual pitch; so even in PbP mode, the radar gun tells you, without looking at the location chart, what type of pitch they threw. 100 mph/fastball, 89 mph/change, 92 mph/slider __________________ 404'd!

06-13-2014, 05:28 AM	#2
DFyvie Major Leagues Join Date: May 2014 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 389	I understand it as Stuff is an overall rating of the guy's pitches. You said he has three pitches and that none of them are special.. that is the reason his stuff is only at 13/20. I assumed that the higher the quality of pitches.. the higher the stuff.. and therefor the higher the frequency of strikeouts. I also assumed that movement reduces the batter's chance of a clean hit. So if your pitcher has average stuff but crazy movement, the batter will make contact.. but will accomplish little more than ground-outs and pop-outs. Think Dicky with the Mets (not so much with the Jays).

06-13-2014, 02:47 PM	#4
ConStar Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 205	I've read the manual's explanation. What I'm saying is the manual doesn't make sense in regards to how it works in the real world. Prime example: If you throw a 100 mph four-seamer with decent control, you have a 20/20 fastball. That's just not really up for debate, because that's how it works in baseball. Now, you can throw 100 mph with terrible control and great movement, and still get results. But Control and Movement are already categories unto themselves. My complaint/analysis is mostly contained to the fastball pitch by itself. "Stuff" becomes more relevant when discussing sliders, sinkers, curveballs, etc. Hypothetically, you could have a slider that doesn't break much, but when it does break, it does it all at once, right at the end of the pitch. So overall Movement rating for that pitch could be low, but because all the movement happens in the hitting zone, the pitch is very effective, thus it is better "Stuff." Fastballs? That doesn't apply. If your fastball has even some movement, you're already ahead of the game. When I see pitchers with velocity ratings in the high 90s, and when I play out a game I see them hitting 101, 102, etc., on the gun, then I check their ratings and they get 11/20 on their fastball and never strike anyone out, that doesn't pass the logic test.

06-14-2014, 06:30 PM	#14
glenstein Bat Boy Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 11	Also, Constar, it looks like you're being offered mutually exclusive answers. On the one hand, you shouldn't necessarily be surprised if many high MPH throwers don't get many K's, because there's more to K's than just throwing hard. On the other hand, high MPH throwers supposedly do rack up K's as a fact of the matter so there's nothing to complain about. But those can't both be true.

06-14-2014, 10:42 PM	#15
ConStar Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 205	I don't think this would irk me nearly as much if the velocity rates were a little more realistic. I play out every game in my organization, and occasionally watch games between other teams and their minor leagues. In two seasons, I've counted around 30 guys who can consistently hit 98-100 and occasionally touch 102, 103 (assuming the radar gun is correct on the pitch locator graphic). That's Aroldis Chapman territory. I will agree that a guy throwing 90-95 will have a hard time striking out batters if he's too predictable, or throws too straight, but Major League hitters have trouble with Chapman even if he were to tell them beforehand where he was going to throw it. His career K/IP is somewhere around 15. So two things are going on here: One, there are too many guys in my league throwing three-digit gas, and two, the ones that do aren't properly rewarded for it. Last season, the closers of both my single-A teams would regularly hit 100, and their K/IP ratios were just over 7, because their Stuff rating was middling. I agree with a post further up the thread that the ideal solution would be for each pitch to have its own Stuff/Movement/Control/Velocity ratings. I also hope for a future version of the game where we can call pitches. That way, predictability would become an issue for human-controlled games, and Catcher Ability ratings would affect it in auto-played games, thereby offsetting high Stuff/Velocity ratings if either I or my AI employees got too dependent on one pitch.

06-14-2014, 11:15 PM	#16
OakDragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: San Jose, CA USA Posts: 3,494	Part of the issue is that "Stuff", "Movement", and Control" in OOTP are not meant to be what they are in real life. They are names for ratings... ratings whose main purpose is to generate the proper stats. They might just as well be ratings, A, B, and, C, but Stuff, Movement and Control are easier for us to remember and distinguish.

06-15-2014, 12:19 AM	#17
sc_superstar Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 407	Velocity =/= extreme strikeout numbers, maybe his fastball isnt his out pitch, maybe his knee bucking curve or changeup is, I mean if you have the choice between lets say a 100MPH fastball that strikes out 25 guys and gives up 5 flyballs or an offspeed pitch that generates 20 ground balls 2 fly balls and 8 strikeouts, which one would you throw with 2 strikes? If you really wanted to test this you would make two identical leagues with two identical pitchers with different velocity ratings and compared the K/9 numbers over multiple seasons, im sure the higher velocity pitcher would have a higher K/9. Like others have said stuff is a combination of his entire pitch assortment, but his other ratings would have an effect indirectly as well. If you broke down the numbers beyond what we can see in game im sure it would all make more sense to us. Hypothetically lets assume a pitcher has a fastball, curveball, and changeup The fastball has high velocity, low movment and low control (100+MPH) The curveball has low velocity, high movement and average control (70-75MPH) The change-up has low velocity high movement and very high control (75-80 MPH) By looking at it all as a package you end up with a pitcher with: - Below average to average stuff since he has very little control or movment on his fastball, and his other two pitches dont look like strikout pitches, but more pitch to contact ones. - Above average to high movment since his two offspeed pitches have alot of break - High control since he has spot on command of his offspeed pitches But his velocity is still 100MPH because his fastball does hit it.

06-15-2014, 06:13 PM	#20
Marinersfan51 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 777	Velocity doesn't necessarily equal strikeouts, Yordano Ventura is one of the hardest throwing starters in baseball with a fastball that averages 96 MPH and hits 100+ and he only has about 8 K/9. Kelvin Herrera is averaging 97 MPH on his two seamer fastball, second highest in baseball this season out of the bullpen, and has a K/9 of 7.12 right now. Carlos Martinez has the second hardest overall fastball this year at 96.6 MPH and has a 7.27 K/9. I think you get my point. For reference Aroldis Chapman's fastball average 98.4 MPH last season. Nobody throws 100+ consistently in real life.