My first true two-way player

[Jupiter]

I do not know exactly how long I have been playing OOTP Baseball, but I know it has been at least 10 years. And in all that time, the one thing I wanted to accomplish was to find and groom a player who could both pitch and hit. In all those hundreds of in-game seasons in various leagues, I never did quite manage it... although I came close once or twice. This was made all the harder by the fact that I play mostly as the general manager/manager and only play out two or three games a month.

But I tried. I had platoon-level position player once who was a pretty solid starter up to AAA... there was no way he would ever be good enough to be a starting pitcher for me, but I threw him into a blowout in relief once or twice a year. The stats usually weren't good, perhaps because there seemed to be a penalty to his velocity as a position player and after 5 seasons on my team and a combined 5.00 ERA is about 10 innings, I traded him away knowing he would never pitch again. On the other side, I had pretty decent relief pitcher who had ratings that might have led to .260 with some power, but the game would never use him as a pinch hitter or position player and the few at bats I gave him manually did not quite set the league afire.

But then a few years ago I was looking to make a trade to get rid of a couple of useful players who did not have a big role on my team anymore and I was looking through the top prospects list and that is when I first "met" Brad Sharpe. He was a teenager then, barely a year out of the draft and a five star potential right fielder. He had just been named the #11 prospect in the league and I had basically already slid him into the "not interested, will cost too much" pile when I happened to glance at his ratings page and noticed he was a pitcher, too.



This was the first player I had ever come across (though there may have been some that I had just never seen if they were in other organizations) that had ratings that could legitimately make him a major league starter on offense or defense. The opportunity was too good to pass up so I just had to trade for him. And it cost me a pretty penny... one true major league starting 1B, two starting caliber offensive prospects, one starting caliber pitching prospect, and a bench player, plus a 2nd round draft pick. But he was mine and I started grooming him through the minor leagues.

That was where I began to run into trouble because my method playing did not seem to match well with having a two way player. I would make him a starting pitcher and put him in the pitching rotation and then also put him in the starting lineup on whatever minor league team he was on and he would do exactly as directed, pitching every five days and playing offense two or three of the days in between... only problem was that his performance was never any good. He never did put up an ERA under 4.81 (most were quite a bit higher) at any level, even though I always made sure to place him at the minor league level that best matched his current pitching prowess, based on ratings. His offense was even worse, as he was general among the worst minor league hitters at whatever level he was at, even when his offense ratings suggested he was playing a level or two below where he should have been. Maybe some of this was fatigue, but it was painful to watch.

His development was curious, too. He developed pretty consistently on both sides, though he never really developed in Stuff... his cutter just would not get any better. Actually, his cutter was a really low-rated pitch when I first traded for him too, so it may not have anything to do with the two way player stuff... he was just not meant to be a big strikeout pitcher, I guess.

Luckily, I am stubborn. So I just kept putting him out there, watching his ratings until I thought he was ready to play in the majors. And I did a little reading here on the board to see if I could find any suggestions. Once suggestion I found was to force him out of the lineup the day before and the day after he pitched, although I never could find an easy way to do this simulating weeks at a time the way I do.

Finally I (or rather he) was ready to give it a shot and I decided on a technique that has a few drawbacks but seems workable. Rather than starting him as a regular part of the rotation, I found five other starters and put him as the last starter in a six man rotation. With the "always start highest rested starter" option selected, he essentially never gets started by the AI. But I also turned on the seven day lineups and put him as the starter on Tuesday, so every Tuesday he starts and every Monday and Wednesday (which includes almost all of the off-days in my schedule) he rests because there is another right fielder set in the lineup. He rests most Thursdays as well because I have him in the lineup, but the game seems to consider him too tired to play. And then Friday-Sunday he is the starter in right field.

Over the course of the season, this amounts to playing time at roughly the level of a platoon outfielder and a fifth starter, with about 400 plate appearances and 24-25 pitching starts. The rest of the time, sadly, he just takes up space. He's the best base runner on my team and a plus defensive outfielder, but in two-plus years he has been substituted into a game by the AI a grand total of one time, when the starting center fielder got hurt in the bottom of the eighth and then the only remaining center fielder gut hurt in the top of the ninth. When it comes to normal AI substitution, it seems to never even consider him as a pinch hitter or pinch runner or defensive replacement. Possibly this is because the game thinks he is tired, but more likely the AI just doesn't look deeply enough to "see" him as a starting pitcher with good offensive ratings. I tried to play out his full first year without him in the starting lineups (since the 7-day lineups overrode these anyway) so that I could list him as the top pinch hitter and pinch runner and defensive replacement, but the AI ignored him anyway, so I gave up and made him the de facto starter in the second season just in case it has some weird effect on his morale.

But nonetheless, playing this way with him for a couple of years now has been fun and he has turned out to be even better than I hoped he might. At 25, he has maxed out almost all of his ratings (except stuff, though his cutter has finally developed most of its potential) and turned into one of the best players in the league:





The only minor complaint I have is when awards times comes, the game seems to fail to notice him the same way the AI does during games. His combination of stats just doesn't seem to match up well with any of the awards. After his rookie year, I manually made him the rookie of the year, which was a bit of a cheat as the game did not even have him in the top three. But he was the second best rookie pitcher (in my estimation) and the third best rookie hitter (again, according to me) and so I broke my non-interference rule and made him ROY. In both of his full seasons, his offensive WAR plus his pitching WAR would make him far and away the highest WAR player in the league. I don't know the calculation of either of those statistics well enough to know if adding them together quite makes sense, but I figure it gives some sort of ballpark (no pun intended) acknowledgement of what he adds to the team. But since I only give out batter of the year and pitcher of the year awards and not an overall MVP, he has not won either.

Oh, one final and slightly annoying note: That lovely 7-day lineup plan of mine completely falls apart when it comes to the playoffs, because the forced off days would have him missing too much of each series. So short of playing out each game manually, I have instead switched him to a full-time position player in the postseason.

Well, mostly I just wanted to share my story. But of course if anybody has any advice or questions or just interesting history, I would enjoy hearing it all.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Jupiter

Oh, one final and slightly annoying note: That lovely 7-day lineup plan of mine completely falls apart when it comes to the playoffs, because the forced off days would have him missing too much of each series. So short of playing out each game manually, I have instead switched him to a full-time position player in the postseason.

What you could do is go into each playoff game as if you were going to play it, put Sharpe into his proper spot in the lineup/rotation, start the game, and then sim the game. Not much more work than setting the 7-day lineups, really, since you'd only be doing it for the postseason.

EDIT: Wait, I get what you're saying now. By allowing Sharpe to get his rest after he pitches, he automatically misses almost the rest of the series. So yeah, you're kind of forced to start him either as a pitcher or a position player. Don't really see another way around that, unfortunately.

[hfield007]

I stumbled upon a two way player in my game. first one i ever saw with any real big ability (I remember Al Moore in an old fictional who was an ace 1B for 18 years with 5th starter type ratings at pitcher). Brandon Ervin. An Indians pitcher who I watched win the silver slugger at pitcher for 4 or 5 years when I decided to check more into it... He had above average offense along with being a top 10 starter in the league. I traded my farm for him basically. My first year with him he got hurt baserunning on one of his pitching days. I managed to grab him 22 starts at pitcher though along with 40 starts in the field. He really filled holes in my outfield in left when injuries riddled the lineup.

In my second season with him now. He's doing above average at pitcher but almost halfway into the season and I've only put him in the field about 5 or 6 times due to my strong outfield staying healthy.


Also: do yourself a favor is your PC can handle it and delve into the world of mods and grab the jerseys/logos mods for your teams add a whole new level of immersion.

[Tram2Whitaker]

I typically go to the 4 man rotation when the playoffs start anyway, but why would you remove a 19-3 pitcher with 2.19 ERA? Another observation,being an NL team, you don't have the DH, but likely at least 3 games of the WS will be in the AL park. In a 2-3-2 setup, he can pitch game 2, DH the 3 in the middle, and pitch the potential game 6, meaning you'll only be without for game 1.

[Tram2Whitaker]

I had what you might consider a 2 way player in '13. He was a catcher, but also a pitcher. He was a power bat, but couldn't hit lefties well; so I platooned him. In between starting every 3rd game v. righties at catcher, and never against lefties; I used him as a setup/emergency closer. 3rd season, he started to get a bit grumpy, wanted me to make him a closer, so he became a closer and got 34 saves. Then my catcher thought he was worth 8 yr/ $120 million, so I let him go and put this guy at catcher, careful to spell him whenever lefties were starting.

[Mister_G]

Wow. Those stats are incredible. Stretched over a full season at one position I could see him winning MVP or CY multiple times.

[MrDov]

Wow he really blossomed. The difference between his minor league stats, even in his last year, and his major league stats is incredible. That's something I've always wanted to do, groom a legit 2-way player. Closest I've got was a 1B/RP who had meh 1B ratings, probably top out at AA or AAA, but had legit ML RP ratings. Let him try 1B in rookie ball and didn't put up very good stats so I quickly let him focus on pitching full time.

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

What you could do is go into each playoff game as if you were going to play it, put Sharpe into his proper spot in the lineup/rotation, start the game, and then sim the game. Not much more work than setting the 7-day lineups, really, since you'd only be doing it for the postseason.

EDIT: Wait, I get what you're saying now. By allowing Sharpe to get his rest after he pitches, he automatically misses almost the rest of the series. So yeah, you're kind of forced to start him either as a pitcher or a position player. Don't really see another way around that, unfortunately.

Yes, that was my basic concern. Since he has performed so poorly in the minor leagues when he was being "pushed" into the lineup and so well when I forced him to rest, I wanted to make sure he rested normally. So if I started him in Game 2, I would have to rest him in Game 1 and Game 3. Then probably play him in Game 4/5. Then pitch in Game 6 and potentially have to rest him in the most important game, although I suppose I could always just force him into the lineup as he'd have time to rest after the series. But his offense level was so high I decided to just play him in the field every day, since I already had four starters (five, actually) aside from him.

My plan is still a work in progress and I suppose I should admit I am just stubborn sometimes.

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by Tram2Whitaker

I typically go to the 4 man rotation when the playoffs start anyway, but why would you remove a 19-3 pitcher with 2.19 ERA? Another observation,being an NL team, you don't have the DH, but likely at least 3 games of the WS will be in the AL park. In a 2-3-2 setup, he can pitch game 2, DH the 3 in the middle, and pitch the potential game 6, meaning you'll only be without for game 1.

That's a very good point, I had not thought about the World Series specifically. I could very likely DH him a few games (though I hate to lost his offense) and still consider those to be rest days. Truthfully, the DH games over the course of the season had become a bit of an annoyance (they kept showing up on his normal pitching day and forcing him out of the chance to bat) that I had not thought much about how I could use them to his advantage.

Thanks!

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by MrDov

Wow he really blossomed. The difference between his minor league stats, even in his last year, and his major league stats is incredible. That's something I've always wanted to do, groom a legit 2-way player. Closest I've got was a 1B/RP who had meh 1B ratings, probably top out at AA or AAA, but had legit ML RP ratings. Let him try 1B in rookie ball and didn't put up very good stats so I quickly let him focus on pitching full time.

There is actually an asterisk involved in his stats in those last years in the minors. Although his minor league performance overall was poor, by the last year or so I was getting so desperate to try him in the majors (he was ready offensively, but not as a pitcher) that I had him spend the 2018 season exclusively as a pitcher without ever batting. He STILL performed ridiculously badly, but so did the rest of the pitchers on my AAA staff.

Toward the end of the season, when I finally noticed the crazy trend, I spent some time investigating and looking at logs of individual games and realized (long story short) that the passed ball modifier on the league was completely screwed up (as I recall, it had drifted to 134 or a scale where 1 is normal). I'm sure it has been getting progressively worse and worse over time, but that was the year it got completely out of control and almost no pitcher had an ERA under 5.50.

Still, with that caveat, the essential point is correct. His minor league performance was always substantially below where I thought he should be and his major league performance has been light years ahead of where I figured he would be. And it's still a pretty small sample size, so I will be curious to see what happens in the future.

[rferry]

Wow. That's a superstar two-way player. I've only seen platoon players and super-duper subs.

[Cowboys3356]

Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. If a real MLB player put the combined stats in pitching and hitting that he did in your 2021 season the world would go crazy!!! I think you found a good one in this dude.

[pjh5165]

I've never seen anyone like this guy either, that is awesome. He is going to get PAID.

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by pjh5165

I've never seen anyone like this guy either, that is awesome. He is going to get PAID.

How he gets paid will actually be somewhat interesting. It appears so far that his anticipated arbitration award changes depending on whether I have his position set to SP or RF, which does not seem quite right. And based on the number, it seems to base the dollar amount on just that one position and ignore the other side of what he has done.

[pjh5165]

Yeah that does make sense, I wouldn't think the AI would be able to accurately handle negotiations with a superstar two-way player. I'd assume there's no way you're going to get away from your team though.

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by pjh5165

Yeah that does make sense, I wouldn't think the AI would be able to accurately handle negotiations with a superstar two-way player. I'd assume there's no way you're going to get away from your team though.

No, I will make sure I keep him on the team, because I waited so long. I actually wrestled with this a little when I saw the offensive numbers he was putting up and was tempted to just make him a full-time hitter. But after waiting this long to see a two-way player, I'm not giving it up voluntarily. The same will be true when it comes to contract negotiations. He likely has me over a barrel and could demand whatever he wants, although I'm not sure the AI will recognize that fact. But that seems to vary from player to player, so he may turn out to be one of the ones that just wants year to year contracts up to free agency and then it will be interesting to see what his demands are.

[OakDragon]

Originally Posted by Jupiter

How he gets paid will actually be somewhat interesting. It appears so far that his anticipated arbitration award changes depending on whether I have his position set to SP or RF, which does not seem quite right. And based on the number, it seems to base the dollar amount on just that one position and ignore the other side of what he has done.

I would just set him on whichever is the lower of the two when the time comes, and then just give him more than what he wants, halfway in between the two.