Tommy John epidemic?

[Donevyn]

I just saw a round table on MLB Network with Don Costa, with a 6 person panel from a TJ surgeon to Tom Smolz, Verducci etc. VERY interesting and looking at the 17 TJ's already this season. Is it real? What can be done?

[RandyTiger]

It's largely the result of high-velocity throwing instead of intelligently pitching. (Big difference between throwing and pitching!) It's part of the risks those type of guys take - the more stress you place on an arm, the higher the chance something's gonna go wrong.

About the only thing that can be done is to watch pitchers closely and treat them at the first sign of a problem, which is what's already being done. All the mechanics-tinkering in the world isn't going to help reduce the odds very much.

The only other alternative is to change baseball to a soft-pitch sport, which isn't going to happen.

[Donevyn]

Originally Posted by RandyTiger

It's largely the result of high-velocity throwing instead of intelligently pitching. (Big difference between throwing and pitching!) It's part of the risks those type of guys take - the more stress you place on an arm, the higher the chance something's gonna go wrong.

About the only thing that can be done is to watch pitchers closely and treat them at the first sign of a problem, which is what's already being done. All the mechanics-tinkering in the world isn't going to help reduce the odds very much.

The only other alternative is to change baseball to a soft-pitch sport, which isn't going to happen.

There were many things said in the hour long panel. Pitching from flat ground and gradually building up to a mound, but not before 16-18 so full tendon strength has been reached. Throwing all the time, NOT pitching. Like taking balls at short and throwing over to first kind of distance. Many other things.


What was really scary, and is happing now, is that teams are actually drafting players that are very good, but know they will need TJ, and do it early, rather then later.


And even with all the 'successful' TJ's, the rate is really around 70-75%. Not 90 that many people believe to be. That mean's, with so many doing it, many or ending their career.

[RandyTiger]

Nice you said all of that AFTER I posted, mate.

That'll teach me to keep my mouth shut.

Later.

[Donevyn]

Originally Posted by RandyTiger

Nice you said all of that AFTER I posted, mate.

That'll teach me to keep my mouth shut.

Later.

I actually don't see that what you said is not relevant and actually falls in line with what several of them were indicating as problems.

[JcBoscan]

It's my humble opinion that there were less major arm injuries in MLB back in the day because pitchers were worked so hard that you discovered the fragile arms earlier. You didn't make it to MLB unless you had a durable arm. Just a theory.

As you have mentioned, the emphasis on velocity is probably part of it, too.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by JcBoscan

It's my humble opinion that there were less major arm injuries in MLB back in the day because pitchers were worked so hard that you discovered the fragile arms earlier. You didn't make it to MLB unless you had a durable arm. Just a theory.

As you have mentioned, the emphasis on velocity is probably part of it, too.

I'm so sure durable is the reason as much as pacing themselves. On a 4 man rotation and pitching 8 or 9 innings they couldn't throw hard as much as pitchers of today who pitched 5 or 6
innings. If you switched pitchers in time I think that each pitcher will adapt and have about the same results.

[Curve Ball Dave]

I would add the teaching of "tall and fall" which is pretty much all arm. Get pitchers winding up again as opposed to just turning sideways and gunning it in as hard as he can, and get them to use their legs again. We have a working real life model of how to pitch over 200 innings a year without blowing out one's arm. Get out the film of pitchers from a generation ago dragging their trailing knee on the mound as they drive with their legs.

I wasn't a major league pitcher, but my soft tissue didn't know the difference. After a game my legs were gone but my arm felt fine.

Steve Stone had a good line a couple of weeks ago while doing a White Sox game, "If your legs can carry you for six innings, your arm should carry you for final three."

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I'm so sure durable is the reason as much as pacing themselves. On a 4 man rotation and pitching 8 or 9 innings they couldn't throw hard as much as pitchers of today who pitched 5 or 6
innings. If you switched pitchers in time I think that each pitcher will adapt and have about the same results.

That is one of those historical fallacies much like Napolean was short; that has entered baseball lore

Walter Johnson said he would relax, why? Because he was that damn better than everyone else...he'd give up a HR to Sam Crawford if ahead by 2 runs, as a "here ya go buddy" But then people grab that quote and say "Well players back then..." Which is disgraceful and a cop out to why players today are horrible in a mechanics and fundementals aspect.

Almost every other P back then negates the fact that they didn't throw as best they could for as long as they could. Bob Feller actually got better as the game went along, as did Koufax.

Just wanted to point that out...Pitchers back then threw the same most of the game (C and P could get easy pitches maybe) but they had the mindset that I am pitching THE game, not like today when they go back to the bench and say
"What's my pitch count?" Then proceed to overthrow on their last 10 pitches

[Donevyn]

They did mention it's not the shoulder or arm perse, but the joint (sorry can't remember the exact name) between upper and lower arm that is taking the unnatural stress of pitching nowadays.

[Mikex5]

On the Score Sports radio 670 on Wednesday, May 14th, Tommy John was on. He said that many of the top surgeons in the country believe that young kids throwing all season play the biggest role in guys having the surgery. He also blames parents. Many parents believe that having the surgery will give their kids more velocity. With more velocity, they will get big $$$ from the Majors. John said it is a false belief. The surgery corrects a defect in the elbow. It does not add to the speed of your pitches. But many athletes are getting the surgery even when they don't need it. John also believes PED's play a role in the increase in the number of surgeries. PED's allow the muscles to heal quicker. They do not allow ligiments to heal quicker, nor do they give strength to the ligiment. John believes a guy is given only so much ability.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by Mikex5

On the Score Sports radio 670 on Wednesday, May 14th, Tommy John was on. He said that many of the top surgeons in the country believe that young kids throwing all season play the biggest role in guys having the surgery. He also blames parents. Many parents believe that having the surgery will give their kids more velocity. With more velocity, they will get big $$$ from the Majors. John said it is a false belief. The surgery corrects a defect in the elbow. It does not add to the speed of your pitches. But many athletes are getting the surgery even when they don't need it. John also believes PED's play a role in the increase in the number of surgeries. PED's allow the muscles to heal quicker. They do not allow ligiments to heal quicker, nor do they give strength to the ligiment. John believes a guy is given only so much ability.

While I don't know if kids throwing more is a cause or not, but I think it's obvious the increase in success rate of this surgery can make players more aggressive.

Teams, players, and parents definitely should all feel safer than the past, when they consider the chance of blowing out an arm. Even if still not perfect, we do know the surgery is getting better returns than in the past. There are also players who came back better than they were before surgery.

Many people might be too risk-seeking these days.

[Skipaway]

Originally Posted by JcBoscan

It's my humble opinion that there were less major arm injuries in MLB back in the day because pitchers were worked so hard that you discovered the fragile arms earlier. You didn't make it to MLB unless you had a durable arm. Just a theory.

As you have mentioned, the emphasis on velocity is probably part of it, too.

In the past, pitchers work less hard, because they don't throw much outside of the games.

And players had shorter careers in the past. Overall, modern players have about 2 years longer careers than those in the earlier era.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by Mikex5

On the Score Sports radio 670 on Wednesday, May 14th, Tommy John was on. He said that many of the top surgeons in the country believe that young kids throwing all season play the biggest role in guys having the surgery. He also blames parents. Many parents believe that having the surgery will give their kids more velocity. With more velocity, they will get big $$$ from the Majors. John said it is a false belief. The surgery corrects a defect in the elbow. It does not add to the speed of your pitches. But many athletes are getting the surgery even when they don't need it. John also believes PED's play a role in the increase in the number of surgeries. PED's allow the muscles to heal quicker. They do not allow ligiments to heal quicker, nor do they give strength to the ligiment. John believes a guy is given only so much ability.

I think Tommy John is a good P but he's speaking echo chamber speak here.

I doubt the P having TJ right now would step up and say "Yea, I was made to pitch ALL YEAR LONG and my parents made me do this"

Plus, it's not just PEDs, it's weight training...some of the best and healthiest (arm wise) P's we have seen in recent times have been lean and lanky (Pedro Martinez,Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux) or chunksters (David Wells, CC Sabathia, Bartolo Colon)

I have to debunk his stuff as emotional wish wash

It makes logical sense that it is a mechanical issue from lifting the elbow before the hand, and the slide step enhances that strain...so the latter needs to go right away, and the former is something P's and coaches need to look at.

One thing this has taught me is now I know how Satchel Paige lasted so long with his windmill windup, Pitchers today should follow suit.

[JcBoscan]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

In the past, pitchers work less hard, because they don't throw much outside of the games.

And players had shorter careers in the past. Overall, modern players have about 2 years longer careers than those in the earlier era.

Re: career length. I would think longer careers can at least be partly explained by two things. 1.) The miracles of modern medicine have cut down the amount of career-ending injuries. Teams continue to bring fragile arms back because they can patch them up and try again. 2.) The new economics of baseball often persuade teams to keep a poorly performing player (think Dan Uggla) for longer than they would if they could just cut him loose with no penalty.

And that might be the first time I've heard the argument that pitchers today throw more and work harder than in yesteryear.

Oh well. It's all just theories anyway. If I were smarter I'd be a GM or at least making more money

[Airdrop01]

Ahem. This kind of abuse happens all the time.

High School Coach Now Regrets Letting His Pitcher Throw 194 Pitches

[Mikex5]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

While I don't know if kids throwing more is a cause or not, but I think it's obvious the increase in success rate of this surgery can make players more aggressive.

Teams, players, and parents definitely should all feel safer than the past, when they consider the chance of blowing out an arm. Even if still not perfect, we do know the surgery is getting better returns than in the past. There are also players who came back better than they were before surgery.

Many people might be too risk-seeking these days.

One thing to note, before 1982 (I think) all the pitchers who had the surgery, were over 30. John doesn't believe having the TJ surgery will prevent the same injury from happening in the future. There are guys who have had it more than once.

[Mikex5]

Originally Posted by Carlton

I think Tommy John is a good P but he's speaking echo chamber speak here.

I doubt the P having TJ right now would step up and say "Yea, I was made to pitch ALL YEAR LONG and my parents made me do this"

Plus, it's not just PEDs, it's weight training...some of the best and healthiest (arm wise) P's we have seen in recent times have been lean and lanky (Pedro Martinez,Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux) or chunksters (David Wells, CC Sabathia, Bartolo Colon)

I have to debunk his stuff as emotional wish wash

It makes logical sense that it is a mechanical issue from lifting the elbow before the hand, and the slide step enhances that strain...so the latter needs to go right away, and the former is something P's and coaches need to look at.

One thing this has taught me is now I know how Satchel Paige lasted so long with his windmill windup, Pitchers today should follow suit.

Actually, John was quoting Dr. Andrews in much of the interview. One thing of note, John started having arm problems in 1963. Back then, you wouldn't dare say you had arm trouble or you could lose your career. He claims to have had over 40 cortizone shots from '63-'74.

Today, pitchers are more inclined to discuss any discomfort in their arms. That is probably a good thing. Because medicine is more advanced, doctors can better determine the injury. That will keep pitchers pitching longer. So does the guaranteed contract.

[Carlton]

Well the giuy I put the most stock in, was the guy who talked Tommy John into getting that surgery, Iron Mike Marshall...who said the windup where pitchers are raising their elbow before their hand is causing this stress and that his program could eliminate pitcher's injuries altogether (hyperbole, but he's confident) and Mitch Williams said the slide step is something that snhances that strain.

I wish MLB would consult former P's who had lengthy careers rather than doctors who can give a theory but no real world applications.

But the amount of arguments I've gotten over this issue when one of my friends say Buster Olney or Tim Kirkujian said...and I say they are wrong..."Oh yea, ok you know more than those guys about baseball" YES I DO, as do most minor league ballplayers...those guys quote stats and tidbits

[Postman]

This might be informative: 5 Reasons Why There Are So Many MLB Tommy John Injuries - Mike Reinold