Defensive ratings at first base

[Darviathar]

I am replaying 1980's seasons and feel that OOTP's defensive ratings are a step up from what was provided with 13/14, but still lacking at first base. Keith Hernandez, who won virtually every gold glove in the 1980's is rated only a 50 at first base, never wins the gold glove, and is effectively worth far less as a player than he was historically because of it. I've been able to adjust other all-time greats (such as Sandberg and Ozzie Smith) but worry about putting "too much range and arm" for a first baseman. I feel that Hernandez should be rated as an 80 glove man at first base, but I don't want to give him so much range or arm that he is playing like a super human.

[JMDurron]

I have the same problem with Dwight Evans in RF in my historical league, but I assumed that the rating system is based on some kind of historical data, which might filter out the issue that the voters for the Gold Glove award didn't actually always know what they were doing. Derek Jeter and Rafael Palmiero come to mind.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by Darviathar

I am replaying 1980's seasons and feel that OOTP's defensive ratings are a step up from what was provided with 13/14, but still lacking at first base. Keith Hernandez, who won virtually every gold glove in the 1980's is rated only a 50 at first base, never wins the gold glove, and is effectively worth far less as a player than he was historically because of it. I've been able to adjust other all-time greats (such as Sandberg and Ozzie Smith) but worry about putting "too much range and arm" for a first baseman. I feel that Hernandez should be rated as an 80 glove man at first base, but I don't want to give him so much range or arm that he is playing like a super human.

bare in mind that gold glove voting in real life is pretty terrible.

[pjh5165]

Adam Jones won a gold glove last year with a -7.9 UZR/150.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

I may be wrong, but I suspect that if you gave someone the range, arm, etc. to be an "80" at first base, they'd have the necessary thresholds to qualify at other infield positions and you'd start seeing the AI start him at second, or third, or whatever. So it's probably a compromise. I'd just pay attention to what kind of defensive statistics he puts up at first, and make sure that they are good enough for what you are looking for. In OOTP you don't actually need a ton of infield skills to put up great defensive numbers at 1B.

[JohnHoward]

Originally Posted by Darviathar

I am replaying 1980's seasons and feel that OOTP's defensive ratings are a step up from what was provided with 13/14, but still lacking at first base. Keith Hernandez, who won virtually every gold glove in the 1980's is rated only a 50 at first base, never wins the gold glove, and is effectively worth far less as a player than he was historically because of it. I've been able to adjust other all-time greats (such as Sandberg and Ozzie Smith) but worry about putting "too much range and arm" for a first baseman. I feel that Hernandez should be rated as an 80 glove man at first base, but I don't want to give him so much range or arm that he is playing like a super human.

Then OOTP is correcting an unfortunate historical myth created by sportswriters who liked Hernandez because he was handsome and a good interview. I saw him play live many times and he didn't deserve the reputation he had. It's encouraging to see that the numbers accurately reflect that. I think he should be a 50, and maybe that is too generous.

[WhiteDolphin]

Semi-related: Can anyone that speaks sabermetric-ese tell me how important a defensive first baseman is? I vaguely know of stuff like WAR being a decent measure of all-around player worth and being able to judge if an offensive player with zero defense is worth 6 wins or 10, but after playing MLB The Show as a closer I get really paranoid in basically every baseball game about having 1st basemen that don't drop routine throws from short and second (seen way too much of that without even adjusting sliders). Like, in this game, is it worth it for me to sacrifice having a power hitter with 5 or less out of 20 in infield error for a 14-15?

[sc_superstar]

the RL Gold Glove award is garbage and tons of players have one or more that they dont deserve (I'm looking at you Jeter)

Now Hernandez was an average-above average 1B for his time period. so maybe boosting his range and error and lowering his arm and DP ability, should give him that boost to make him a more effective defensive 1B you desire while not having the AI try and move him to another position

[sc_superstar]

Originally Posted by WhiteDolphin

Semi-related: Can anyone that speaks sabermetric-ese tell me how important a defensive first baseman is? I vaguely know of stuff like WAR being a decent measure of all-around player worth and being able to judge if an offensive player with zero defense is worth 6 wins or 10, but after playing MLB The Show as a closer I get really paranoid in basically every baseball game about having 1st basemen that don't drop routine throws from short and second (seen way too much of that without even adjusting sliders). Like, in this game, is it worth it for me to sacrifice having a power hitter with 5 or less out of 20 in infield error for a 14-15?

If you are going to sacrifice fielding for hitting 1B is the place to do it. However, with that being said, consider how much extra offense your getting.

If your talking David Ortiz or a Utility guy who is gonna hit .240 then its worth losing the D
if your talking David Ortiz or a guy who can put up .280+ with 15+ HR and 80+ RBI then take the D

[rferry]

Palmeiro won the gold glove while playing 28 games at 1B and 128 at DH

[Avindian]

I did a quick check of baseball reference, and even for a fantastic first baseman, dWAR (defensive WAR) over 1 is almost unheard of. Go with the bat, even if he's a worse defender than a glove on a stick. (For specific reference, Keith Hernandez, who a poster mentioned above, had .8 dWAR in his very best year, which was 1983, from a defensive standpoint.)

[greenie25]

You can use the defensive positional adjustments used when calculating WAR as a quick cheat sheet as far as considering offense vs. defense at a position (the number listed is the number of runs added or subtracted to a player's raw defense number to determine that player's dWAR):

C: +12.5
1B: -12.5
2B: +2.5
3B: -2.5
SS: +7.5
LF: -7.5
CF: +2.5
RF: -7.5

So, you could go offense over defense at 1B, LF and RF and not really worry about it (not factoring in type of pitchers or home park, of course). On the other hand, a good defensive C or SS will help as much as a good offensive player at the same position (if you have Tulo or Yadier, you're covered in both areas).

[Renner]

Originally Posted by JohnHoward

Then OOTP is correcting an unfortunate historical myth created by sportswriters who liked Hernandez because he was handsome and a good interview. I saw him play live many times and he didn't deserve the reputation he had. It's encouraging to see that the numbers accurately reflect that. I think he should be a 50, and maybe that is too generous.

I too saw Hernandez play hundreds of times and think he's the best def. 1B I've ever seen...for what that's worth.

[JohnHoward]

Originally Posted by Renner

I too saw Hernandez play hundreds of times and think he's the best def. 1B I've ever seen...for what that's worth.

No worries, since almost everyone would agree with you. I am unquestionably in the minority here. The best I have ever seen in MLB was probably Mike Squires, though Mark Teixeira in college at Georgia Tech played 1B like a shortstop. The best I have seen at any level is a guy named Brett Holmgren.

[StyxNCa]

Palmeiro was so good he won the gold glove at 1B when he was playing DH. I say not bad.

[Renner]

Originally Posted by JohnHoward

No worries, since almost everyone would agree with you. I am unquestionably in the minority here. The best I have ever seen in MLB was probably Mike Squires, though Mark Teixeira in college at Georgia Tech played 1B like a shortstop. The best I have seen at any level is a guy named Brett Holmgren.

And my dad says it was Vic Power ! Ask 20 fans and you'll get 20 different 1b !

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Renner

I too saw Hernandez play hundreds of times and think he's the best def. 1B I've ever seen...for what that's worth.

Same here, but I'm certainly biased as Hernandez was one of my favorite players on my favorite team, so take that for what it's worth (not much).

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

I have the same problem with Dwight Evans in RF in my historical league, but I assumed that the rating system is based on some kind of historical data, which might filter out the issue that the voters for the Gold Glove award didn't actually always know what they were doing. Derek Jeter and Rafael Palmiero come to mind.

It is based on historical data, but I don't know that the data's really worth much as there's no real agreement on how to measure historical fielding data.

Imo, having seen him play many times, Evans was an incredible Right Fielder and while I'm typically a data oriented kind of guy, it'd take a boatload of data to convince me that Evans wasn't a great fielder. Same with Hernandez for that matter.