I'm sick of Alex Rodriguez.

[Jason Moyer]

I think they should have gone after their top stars back in the 60's when everyone started taking anabolic steroids if they want to hold people's feet to the fires of righteous indignation now, but what do I know.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

I think they should have gone after their top stars back in the 60's when everyone started taking anabolic steroids if they want to hold people's feet to the fires of righteous indignation now, but what do I know.

Well, here's a coda: Better late than never.

[John Madden]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Well, here's a coda: Better late than never.

I disagree. Unless you're saying to strip the HoF of basically every member who played from 1950 forward, you're re-writing history and saying that cheaters from a certain era get a pass while more modern cheaters are banned. That makes no sense to me.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by John Madden

I disagree. Unless you're saying to strip the HoF of basically every member who played from 1950 forward, you're re-writing history and saying that cheaters from a certain era get a pass while more modern cheaters are banned. That makes no sense to me.

I agree with you. Everyone knows the suspicions of every era. I say put in the top players and let the fans and historians judge and debate different eras. Nothing gives me the willies more than knowing that the sports writers are responsible for preserving the history of the game. These are the same guys who hold their votes hostage to create headlines and increase reader counts. You can't erase history and what happened. And that is exactly what voters are trying to do. Barry Bonds exists and his stats exist. I'd rather him acknowledged and debated rather then swept under the rug.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by John Madden

I disagree. Unless you're saying to strip the HoF of basically every member who played from 1950 forward, you're re-writing history and saying that cheaters from a certain era get a pass while more modern cheaters are banned. That makes no sense to me.

Going after stars who cheat has nothing to do with the hall. I agree that we should let them in, but going forward it should be put in writing that if you are caught cheating automatic disqualification. All players should have to sign it.
Again this is going forward. After all just like we evolve so does our sports.

[John Madden]

Originally Posted by knightdreamer2k

Going after stars who cheat has nothing to do with the hall. I agree that we should let them in, but going forward it should be put in writing that if you are caught cheating automatic disqualification. All players should have to sign it.
Again this is going forward. After all just like we evolve so does our sports.

So Bonds is in then, right?

EDIT: and this still makes no sense. It will make the HoF a complete joke. (as opposed to the half-joke it is now)

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by John Madden

So Bonds is in then, right?

EDIT: and this still makes no sense. It will make the HoF a complete joke. (as opposed to the half-joke it is now)

I have no idea what doesn't make sense. Going forward means like an agreement in 2015, or 2016. Anyone caught now would not count. As I already said if a player has the numbers they should be in.

[Skipaway]

So are we gonna yank Willie Mays out of the hall? He used performance-enhancing drugs according to court documents. This whole thing is just messy, and we can't avoid the fact that there is no real guideline or rule on moralizing.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by Skipaway

So are we gonna yank Willie Mays out of the hall? He used performance-enhancing drugs according to court documents. This whole thing is just messy, and we can't avoid the fact that there is no real guideline or rule on moralizing.

I only mentioned going forward not back. If players knew starting in 2016 you get suspended your out of hall of fame, then he helps the game going forward. We can't keep going the way it is now where we have guys that get caught after they have a hall of fame career and we end up in these debates all the time.
Automatic DQ is the way to go. Then it won't leave room for debate because that is the rule.

[John Madden]

Originally Posted by knightdreamer2k

I only mentioned going forward not back. If players knew starting in 2016 you get suspended your out of hall of fame, then he helps the game going forward. We can't keep going the way it is now where we have guys that get caught after they have a hall of fame career and we end up in these debates all the time.
Automatic DQ is the way to go. Then it won't leave room for debate because that is the rule.

And the point is that you're going to create a hall of an era of cheaters being held up as paragons of virtue (well, just like now!) while simultaneously saying cheating is bad. Either they all go, or none of them go. No "2016 and forward" crap.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by John Madden

I disagree. Unless you're saying to strip the HoF of basically every member who played from 1950 forward, you're re-writing history and saying that cheaters from a certain era get a pass while more modern cheaters are banned. That makes no sense to me.

Laws & rules change. When they chnage for the worse it is rare where people who committed the same offense earlier are penalized. Someone in 1960 gets convicted of making meth and gets 1 yr while another person gets convicted of making meth and automatically gets 7 in 2014. Only time it affects both the guy from 1960 and the guy in 2014 is when the penalty is lessened. Using PED's is mpore severe a crime in 2014 then in 1960. Prior to Canseco how many of you knew who used what and how often? Prior to Canseco, Mitchell report and the Senate Hearings. I don't think I really knew about steroids in baseball.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by John Madden

And the point is that you're going to create a hall of an era of cheaters being held up as paragons of virtue (well, just like now!) while simultaneously saying cheating is bad. Either they all go, or none of them go. No "2016 and forward" crap.

Yes rules do change. Collision at the plate is a new rule coming for instance. Change happens always. It would be pure lunacy to keep having the same debate pop up. Are wel going to go and say years from now that mike trout was great and all but it got caught with roids, so we repeat the bonds case? You can let them all in now like bonds, sosa, arod etc but after 2016 you are caught then no dice. Has to change.

Remember the definition of insanity?

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by The Game

Prior to Canseco how many of you knew who used what and how often? Prior to Canseco, Mitchell report and the Senate Hearings. I don't think I really knew about steroids in baseball.

Canseco was mid 80's, the latter two were 2003. I would put my timeline somewhere between the two, although to be fair I was maybe 10 when Canseco was still news and my exposure to steroids involved a.) having to take them to stave off a life threatening allergic reaction and b.) Lyle Alzado convincing the media that they had something to do with his brain cancer by saying "I have brain cancer because of steroids" and the subsequent lack of any sort of research into the story being done by the media because they're a bunch of people who went to school for journalism and/or communications rather than something involving critical thinking skills.

Steroids in baseball weren't news until 2001, and it didn't really become news until the people who at one time wanted to kill Hank Aaron had someone else to focus their energy on. Soft spoken black guy who we hate because the press tells us to breaks record of white guy who is universally admired because the press tells us to. Boom steroids. If you take Bonds out of the equation I seriously doubt it's ever a story.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Canseco was mid 80's, the latter two were 2003. I would put my timeline somewhere between the two, although to be fair I was maybe 10 when Canseco was still news and my exposure to steroids involved a.) having to take them to stave off a life threatening allergic reaction and b.) Lyle Alzado convincing the media that they had something to do with his brain cancer by saying "I have brain cancer because of steroids" and the subsequent lack of any sort of research into the story being done by the media because they're a bunch of people who went to school for journalism and/or communications rather than something involving critical thinking skills.

Steroids in baseball weren't news until 2001, and it didn't really become news until the people who at one time wanted to kill Hank Aaron had someone else to focus their energy on. Soft spoken black guy who we hate because the press tells us to breaks record of white guy who is universally admired because the press tells us to. Boom steroids. If you take Bonds out of the equation I seriously doubt it's ever a story.

I meant prior to Juiced and Juiced II or whatever the name of his 2nd book was but I get what you are saying.

[Déjà Bru]

Lots to report on this topic:

• Tommy Lasorda criticizes A-Rod (see below). That ought to be enough for you A-Rod apologists to excuse him. Old school, old fart Tommy dumping on poor Alex for cheating when, gosh, everybody's doing it and the man's only trying to make a living!
• A number of players want A-Rod expelled from the union which, even though it was sued by A-Rod, will not resort to that retribution. Even though the suit was critical of the former head of the union who died in November (not exactly a smart move to do that, Alex).

And I'll say it again: I don't care what some folks think and say about how long they think PED use has been going on and about how MLB did not act forcefully enough when it became rampant and obvious. Better now than never to clean up the sport and keep it clean.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Lots to report on this topic:

• Tommy Lasorda criticizes A-Rod (see below). That ought to be enough for you A-Rod apologists to excuse him. Old school, old fart Tommy dumping on poor Alex for cheating when, gosh, everybody's doing it and the man's only trying to make a living!
• A number of players want A-Rod expelled from the union which, even though it was sued by A-Rod, will not resort to that retribution. Even though the suit was critical of the former head of the union who died in November (not exactly a smart move to do that, Alex).

And I'll say it again: I don't care what some folks think and say about how long they think PED use has been going on and about how MLB did not act forcefully enough when it became rampant and obvious. Better now than never to clean up the sport and keep it clean.

I agree 100%. Some people want to live in the past about what wasn't done. We can't go back, only try to clean up the game today. Arod just doesn't know when to pack it in.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Lots to report on this topic:

• Tommy Lasorda criticizes A-Rod (see below). That ought to be enough for you A-Rod apologists to excuse him. Old school, old fart Tommy dumping on poor Alex for cheating when, gosh, everybody's doing it and the man's only trying to make a living!
• A number of players want A-Rod expelled from the union which, even though it was sued by A-Rod, will not resort to that retribution. Even though the suit was critical of the former head of the union who died in November (not exactly a smart move to do that, Alex).

And I'll say it again: I don't care what some folks think and say about how long they think PED use has been going on and about how MLB did not act forcefully enough when it became rampant and obvious. Better now than never to clean up the sport and keep it clean.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about cleaning up the sport today.

Where we differ is with the HoF and players who cheated with PEDs in the past. It is beyond ridiculous that Bonds and Clemens (not to mention Bagwell, Piazza, Palmeiro etc) may not get a sniff of the HoF because they are being convicted by the very same writers who enabled them in the '90's and '00's.

EDIT: A-Rod is a HoFer too, but he'll probably fall off the ballot after one year. I'm glad he's been suspended and I think the suspension fits the crime. It's gonna be awfully tough for him to resume his career in 2015, especially if the Yanks just pay him the $61 million to get lost.

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I don't care what some folks think and say about how long they think PED use has been going on

Think? There are things that are speculation, and there are things that are facts.

Pud Galvin: The Godfather of Juicing | Bleacher Report

USATODAY.com - Former pitcher Tom House describes past steroid use

It is virtually certain that there are already steroids users in the Hall of Fame | HardballTalk

As far as cleaning up the game goes, I have no problem with banning amphetamines and ephedra-related stuff, but I tend to think the result of banning anabolic steroids and HGH will be players taking things that provide similar benefits with greater health risks.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

It is virtually certain that there are already steroids users in the Hall of Fame | HardballTalk

Which is why I don't think anyone from this modern era should be excluded from the HoF for PED use, etc. We just don't know. We just don't know how many people in the past have cheated but are still in. We just don't know how many current players have cheated but not been caught. We just don't know... and the list goes on and on. There are too many questions out there and to pick and choose from modern players.

If MLB wants to make a hard fast rule beginning now that says, "Caught with some PED and you are 100% guaranteed not going to be in the HoF," I'd be fine with that. But, as far as I'm aware, that currently doesn't exist.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Which is why I don't think anyone from this modern era should be excluded from the HoF for PED use, etc. We just don't know. We just don't know how many people in the past have cheated but are still in. We just don't know how many current players have cheated but not been caught. We just don't know... and the list goes on and on. There are too many questions out there and to pick and choose from modern players.

If MLB wants to make a hard fast rule beginning now that says, "Caught with some PED and you are 100% guaranteed not going to be in the HoF," I'd be fine with that. But, as far as I'm aware, that currently doesn't exist.

That was/is what I said. Let them in if they have the numbers but make a rule for the future HOF'ers.