Unaffiliated Minor League Teams in the Mix

endgame · 01-08-2014, 09:57 PM

Into a little experimentation and learning session tonight and looking for a bit help from the learned and experienced in this area. Thanks in advance for the input.

One thing has led to another during the course of this wayward night.

Okay, quick question please. What are the ramifications or effect of having a couple of unaffiliated minor league teams at each level, in addition to teams that ARE affiliated with ML teams? Do they progress normally? Do they then promote to other unaffiliated teams at other levels?

Guess it wasn't so quick, sorry. How will they interact with the balance of the league that is affiliated to one another?

OmahaReynolds · 01-09-2014, 11:03 AM

I've had unaffiliated teams mixed in with affiliated teams many times. The biggest ramifications seem to be:

Unaffiliated teams sign free agents to minor league contracts. Players who go undrafted, released major leaguers, whatever. The unaffiliated teams also don't have a limit to how many players they can sign, and if there are enough availiable players they can keep signing and signing guys after they reach the roster limit.

Once players are on unaffiliated teams they are stuck there forever. Unless you have minor league free agency or use some kind of player intervention, those players are on those teams forever. If you have a Rule 5 draft, players on the unaffiliated team who would be eligible will show the # symbol in the transactions screen but since they are not the property of a major league club they will not actually be available in a draft.

As far as league balance goes, I believe it was LGO who said that after awhile the independent minor league teams start to dominate in leagues where they play against farm clubs, since the best players on farm clubs tend to get promoted toward the end of the season.

ThatSeventiesGuy · 01-09-2014, 11:48 AM

Independent teams tend to dominate their leagues. A case in point:

No edits by me at all. They were just that good. While that type of dominance isn't common, several other indy minor league teams won their leagues easily back when I was doing my true-to-life minors setup. So, unless you're doing real-life minors, I kind of wouldn't recommend it.

joefromchicago · 01-09-2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmahaReynolds

Once players are on unaffiliated teams they are stuck there forever. Unless you have minor league free agency or use some kind of player intervention, those players are on those teams forever. If you have a Rule 5 draft, players on the unaffiliated team who would be eligible will show the # symbol in the transactions screen but since they are not the property of a major league club they will not actually be available in a draft.

Yeah, that's a big problem with independent minor league teams. In real life, those teams would be selling players to ML clubs, but OOTP's AI just doesn't buy players - at all. You might see an independent minor trade a player to an ML club, but that's not realistic.

There have been some interesting suggestions lately that might break this logjam - one of which (limiting contract lengths in leagues with free agency) Markus has already said he'll adopt for version 15. That, along with a fix that would limit the AI to buying players from independent minors, would go a long way to creating viable independent minor leagues.

Le Grande Orange · 01-09-2014, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Yeah, that's a big problem with independent minor league teams. In real life, those teams would be selling players to ML clubs, but OOTP's AI just doesn't buy players - at all.

I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure players on an independent club in an affiliated league in real life are subject to the Rule 5 draft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmahaReynolds

IAs far as league balance goes, I believe it was LGO who said that after awhile the independent minor league teams start to dominate in leagues where they play against farm clubs, since the best players on farm clubs tend to get promoted toward the end of the season.

No, that wasn't me. But I seem to recall hearing the same sort of thing.

In real life, independent clubs in an affiliated league (in the modern era) tend to do poorly when in full season leagues but perform better when in short season leagues. I actually compiled the results of such independent clubs. Here is what I found.

From 1973-1995 there were a total of 75 clubs which operated independently in otherwise affiliated minor leagues. (There were no independents from 1996-2006.) Of those 75 clubs, 27 (36%) were in full season leagues and 48 (64%) in short season leagues. Of the ones in the full season leagues, 26 were in the High-A leagues (California, Carolina, Florida State) and 1 in Low-A (South Atlantic League). Of the ones in short season leagues, 34 were in Short-A leagues (New York-Penn, Northwest) and 14 in Rookie (Pioneer, Appalachian).

In aggregate, the clubs in full season leagues compiled a 1437-2287 .386 record, while the independents in the short season leagues compiled a 1752-1741 .502 record. Below is a table showing the results for each independent club in the two types of affiliated minor leagues, ordered by winning percentage.

Code:

FULL SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1986  FSL  A-H  Miami           74  66  .529
1990  CAL  A-H  Reno            71  68  .511
1987  CAL  A-H  San Bernardino  70  72  .493
1989  CAL  A-H  Reno            68  74  .479
1986  CAL  A-H  San Jose        65  77  .458
1979  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     63  77  .450
1986  CAR  A-H  Kinston         60  76  .441
1978  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      58  75  .436
1991  CAL  A-H  Reno            59  77  .434
1978  CAR  A-H  Kinston         57  77  .425
1985  FSL  A-H  Miami           58  83  .411
1988  FSL  A-H  Miami           55  79  .410
1991  CAL  A-H  Salinas         55  81  .404
1984  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  85  .393
1982  FSL  A-H  Miami           53  84  .387
1980  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      54  86  .386
1985  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  88  .385
1978  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     48  92  .343
1990  CAL  A-H  Salinas         47  93  .336
1987  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  89  .331
1989  CAR  A-H  Peninsula       44  89  .331
1990  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  93  .321
1985  SAL  A-L  Gastonia        44  93  .321
1989  FSL  A-H  Miami           43  91  .321
1992  CAL  A-H  Salinas         36  99  .267
1987  CAL  A-H  San Jose        33 109  .232
1980  CAR  A-H  Rocky Mount     24 114  .174


SHORT SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1987  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1991  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1992  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  53  23  .697
1978  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    47  23  .671
1977  NWL  A-S  Portland        44  22  .667
1985  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  46  24  .657
1983  NYP  A-S  Utica           48  26  .649
1984  PIO  R-A  Helena          44  24  .647
1986  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  45  25  .643
1990  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  42  26  .618
1980  NWL  A-S  Victoria        42  28  .600
1974  NWL  A-S  Portland        50  34  .595
1988  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  41  29  .586
1990  NYP  A-S  Erie            44  33  .571
1979  NWL  A-S  Victoria        41  31  .569
1994  PIO  R-A  Ogden           41  31  .569
1973  NWL  A-S  Portland        45  35  .563
1981  NYP  A-S  Utica           39  31  .557
1976  NWL  A-S  Portland        40  32  .556
1982  NYP  A-S  Utica           41  34  .547
1975  NWL  A-S  Portland        42  35  .545
1976  NWL  A-S  Seattle         39  33  .542
1993  PIO  R-A  Pocatello       37  38  .493
1980  NWL  A-S  Salem           34  36  .486
1980  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    33  36  .478
1978  APP  R-A  Paintsville     33  36  .478
1989  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  33  36  .478
1989  NWL  A-S  Boise           35  40  .467
1985  NYP  A-S  Utica           35  41  .461
1979  NWL  A-S  Salem           33  39  .458
1995  PIO  R-A  Ogden           32  38  .457
1979  NYP  A-S  Newark          32  39  .451
1985  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        33  41  .446
1975  NWL  A-S  Seattle         35  44  .443
1978  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  40  .429
1979  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  41  .423
1978  NWL  A-S  Victoria        29  40  .420
1984  NYP  A-S  Utica           31  44  .413
1974  NWL  A-S  New Westminster 34  50  .405
1988  NWL  A-S  Boise           30  46  .395
1978  NWL  A-S  Salem           25  44  .362
1976  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    26  46  .361
1987  NWL  A-S  Boise           26  50  .342
1977  NWL  A-S  Salem           22  46  .324
1974  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        27  57  .321
1978  NWL  A-S  Boise           23  49  .319
1987  NYP  A-S  Batavia         23  54  .299
1985  PIO  R-A  Idaho Falls     19  49  .279

Just two of the independents in the full season leagues managed to post a record above.500; the rest were under, and a few of the clubs were dreadful. In short season leagues, 22 of the 48 teams posted records above .500, and 11 were above .600 — some short season independent clubs were able to be very competitive.

Here's the same data again, this time ordered by club and year, allowing one to see the year-by-year progression for those clubs which operated as independents in consecutive years.

Code:

FULL SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1978  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      58  75  .436
1980  CAR  A-H  Alexandria      54  86  .386
1978  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     48  92  .343
1979  CAL  A-H  Bakersfield     63  77  .450
1985  SAL  A-L  Gastonia        44  93  .321
1978  CAR  A-H  Kinston         57  77  .425
1986  CAR  A-H  Kinston         60  76  .441
1982  FSL  A-H  Miami           53  84  .387
1985  FSL  A-H  Miami           58  83  .411
1986  FSL  A-H  Miami           74  66  .529
1987  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  89  .331
1988  FSL  A-H  Miami           55  79  .410
1989  FSL  A-H  Miami           43  91  .321
1990  FSL  A-H  Miami           44  93  .321
1989  CAR  A-H  Peninsula       44  89  .331
1989  CAL  A-H  Reno            68  74  .479
1990  CAL  A-H  Reno            71  68  .511
1991  CAL  A-H  Reno            59  77  .434
1980  CAR  A-H  Rocky Mount     24 114  .174
1990  CAL  A-H  Salinas         47  93  .336
1991  CAL  A-H  Salinas         55  81  .404
1992  CAL  A-H  Salinas         36  99  .267
1987  CAL  A-H  San Bernardino  70  72  .493
1984  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  85  .393
1985  CAL  A-H  San Jose        55  88  .385
1986  CAL  A-H  San Jose        65  77  .458
1987  CAL  A-H  San Jose        33 109  .232


SHORT SEASON LEAGUES

Year  Lg  Class Team             W   L   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1987  NYP  A-S  Batavia         23  54  .299
1978  NWL  A-S  Boise           23  49  .319
1987  NWL  A-S  Boise           26  50  .342
1988  NWL  A-S  Boise           30  46  .395
1989  NWL  A-S  Boise           35  40  .467
1990  NYP  A-S  Erie            44  33  .571
1976  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    26  46  .361
1978  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    47  23  .671
1980  NWL  A-S  Grays Harbor    33  36  .478
1984  PIO  R-A  Helena          44  24  .647
1985  PIO  R-A  Idaho Falls     19  49  .279
1974  NWL  A-S  New Westminster 34  50  .405
1979  NYP  A-S  Newark          32  39  .451
1978  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  40  .429
1979  NYP  A-S  Niagara Falls   30  41  .423
1994  PIO  R-A  Ogden           41  31  .569
1995  PIO  R-A  Ogden           32  38  .457
1978  APP  R-A  Paintsville     33  36  .478
1993  PIO  R-A  Pocatello       37  38  .493
1973  NWL  A-S  Portland        45  35  .563
1974  NWL  A-S  Portland        50  34  .595
1975  NWL  A-S  Portland        42  35  .545
1976  NWL  A-S  Portland        40  32  .556
1977  NWL  A-S  Portland        44  22  .667
1977  NWL  A-S  Salem           22  46  .324
1978  NWL  A-S  Salem           25  44  .362
1979  NWL  A-S  Salem           33  39  .458
1980  NWL  A-S  Salem           34  36  .486
1985  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  46  24  .657
1986  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  45  25  .643
1987  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1988  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  41  29  .586
1989  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  33  36  .478
1990  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  42  26  .618
1991  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  49  21  .700
1992  PIO  R-A  Salt Lake City  53  23  .697
1975  NWL  A-S  Seattle         35  44  .443
1976  NWL  A-S  Seattle         39  33  .542
1974  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        27  57  .321
1985  NWL  A-S  Tri-City        33  41  .446
1981  NYP  A-S  Utica           39  31  .557
1982  NYP  A-S  Utica           41  34  .547
1983  NYP  A-S  Utica           48  26  .649
1984  NYP  A-S  Utica           31  44  .413
1985  NYP  A-S  Utica           35  41  .461
1978  NWL  A-S  Victoria        29  40  .420
1979  NWL  A-S  Victoria        41  31  .569
1980  NWL  A-S  Victoria        42  28  .600

Hope this helps.

Padreman · 01-09-2014, 02:15 PM

What I love about unaffiliated teams they sign some
Of the left overs in the free-agent pool, including giving vets that no one wants a job. They are good to clean up your free-agent pools. I have 4 unaffiliated teams
Per league.. Just make sure that their money on hand and cap basically financial settings are the same as other minor league teams because they will start to sign big time free-agen all-star talent and will act like a rival mlb league. So check their finances set them to be lower than your major league teams so they won't afford big time talent contracts.

OmahaReynolds · 01-09-2014, 03:34 PM

I've been trying for years to figure out a way to have a workable historic minor league system that doesn't require a whole lot of commisioner mode work. I'm not sure its possible, but having each level of minor leagues with the same structure as MLB annoys me.

endgame · 01-09-2014, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmahaReynolds

I've been trying for years to figure out a way to have a workable historic minor league system that doesn't require a whole lot of commisioner mode work. I'm not sure its possible, but having each level of minor leagues with the same structure as MLB annoys me.

One other iteration I've been toying around with is adding more minor league teams that ARE affiliated or selecting a few choice higher market teams to have multiple affiliations, but early tests 'seem' to indicate it gives them a much wider pool that lends itself to higher caliber talent and then the multiple-affiliated end up having that as an advantage in addition to their higher budgets and market sizes. Maybe I should consider adding the additional affiliations to lower market teams for some parity. I don't know. Just typing out loud. Thanks for the comments, guys.

joefromchicago · 01-09-2014, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure players on an independent club in an affiliated league in real life are subject to the Rule 5 draft.

Players on unaffiliated clubs in affiliated minors are subject to Rule 5. Players in unaffiliated minors are not. I got that from a reliable source. I'm not sure if OOTP follows that distinction, and not everybody checks the Rule 5 draft box, so YMMV.

OmahaReynolds · 01-10-2014, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

One other iteration I've been toying around with is adding more minor league teams that ARE affiliated or selecting a few choice higher market teams to have multiple affiliations, but early tests 'seem' to indicate it gives them a much wider pool that lends itself to higher caliber talent and then the multiple-affiliated end up having that as an advantage in addition to their higher budgets and market sizes. Maybe I should consider adding the additional affiliations to lower market teams for some parity. I don't know. Just typing out loud. Thanks for the comments, guys.

I think multiple affiliates at the same level are the way to go, but I've heard that lateral movement becomes an issue with the AI. One way to get around that might be to use the sabremetric PCM's and create sub-levels within a single level, as the MLB quickstart does with the A level.

So you could have the American Association and the International League have the standard AAA PCM's, which are around .850, and have the Pacific Coast League be slightly higher, like around .875 or .900 or something. You could randomly assign major league teams to the PCL affiliates, and at the end of each season, the last place PCL team could be re-assigned to a new major league parent club.

le receveur · 01-11-2014, 01:36 PM

interesting stuff thanks for all the information...

so I was curious, added 2 teams unaffiliated in A ball.

The Walla Walla flightlessbirds are currently 22-1, have signed 73 players, 44 of them having not appeared in a game...

the Hartford Adjusters have been a bit less successful going 18-5 . they have signed 64 players....

all signing are veterans who were not getting contracts from other teams.

Big showdown between the 2 teams next week,...

le receveur · 01-11-2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

interesting stuff thanks for all the information...

so I was curious, added 2 teams unaffiliated in A ball.

The Walla Walla flightlessbirds are currently 22-1, have signed 73 players, 44 of them having not appeared in a game...

the Hartford Adjusters have been a bit less successful going 18-5 . they have signed 64 players....

all signing are veterans who were not getting contracts from other teams.

Big showdown between the 2 teams next week,...

the 2 teams now had a 4 game serie, and Walla Walla swept the 4games, outscoring Hartford 33-14... (they are now 31 and 1)

what is too bad in the whole thing now, is they do have a catcher i would buy from them to be my major league back-up, with my main catcher going done for 3 months

Snarf054 · 01-11-2014, 10:29 PM

Just go into commisioner mode and take him, then make his salary whatever amount you want to pay for him that much higher for the season.

01-08-2014, 09:57 PM	#1
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	Unaffiliated Minor League Teams in the Mix Into a little experimentation and learning session tonight and looking for a bit help from the learned and experienced in this area. Thanks in advance for the input. One thing has led to another during the course of this wayward night. Okay, quick question please. What are the ramifications or effect of having a couple of unaffiliated minor league teams at each level, in addition to teams that ARE affiliated with ML teams? Do they progress normally? Do they then promote to other unaffiliated teams at other levels? Guess it wasn't so quick, sorry. How will they interact with the balance of the league that is affiliated to one another? __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

01-09-2014, 11:48 AM	#3
ThatSeventiesGuy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Midland, MI Posts: 3,426	Independent teams tend to dominate their leagues. A case in point: No edits by me at all. They were just that good. While that type of dominance isn't common, several other indy minor league teams won their leagues easily back when I was doing my true-to-life minors setup. So, unless you're doing real-life minors, I kind of wouldn't recommend it. __________________ https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...00&postcount=1

01-09-2014, 02:15 PM	#6
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,138	What I love about unaffiliated teams they sign some Of the left overs in the free-agent pool, including giving vets that no one wants a job. They are good to clean up your free-agent pools. I have 4 unaffiliated teams Per league.. Just make sure that their money on hand and cap basically financial settings are the same as other minor league teams because they will start to sign big time free-agen all-star talent and will act like a rival mlb league. So check their finances set them to be lower than your major league teams so they won't afford big time talent contracts. __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors Last edited by Padreman; 01-09-2014 at 02:16 PM.

01-09-2014, 11:03 AM	#2
OmahaReynolds All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: New York Posts: 653	I've had unaffiliated teams mixed in with affiliated teams many times. The biggest ramifications seem to be: Unaffiliated teams sign free agents to minor league contracts. Players who go undrafted, released major leaguers, whatever. The unaffiliated teams also don't have a limit to how many players they can sign, and if there are enough availiable players they can keep signing and signing guys after they reach the roster limit. Once players are on unaffiliated teams they are stuck there forever. Unless you have minor league free agency or use some kind of player intervention, those players are on those teams forever. If you have a Rule 5 draft, players on the unaffiliated team who would be eligible will show the # symbol in the transactions screen but since they are not the property of a major league club they will not actually be available in a draft. As far as league balance goes, I believe it was LGO who said that after awhile the independent minor league teams start to dominate in leagues where they play against farm clubs, since the best players on farm clubs tend to get promoted toward the end of the season.

01-09-2014, 03:34 PM	#7
OmahaReynolds All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: New York Posts: 653	I've been trying for years to figure out a way to have a workable historic minor league system that doesn't require a whole lot of commisioner mode work. I'm not sure its possible, but having each level of minor leagues with the same structure as MLB annoys me.

01-11-2014, 01:36 PM	#11
le receveur All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: canada Posts: 1,736	interesting stuff thanks for all the information... so I was curious, added 2 teams unaffiliated in A ball. The Walla Walla flightlessbirds are currently 22-1, have signed 73 players, 44 of them having not appeared in a game... the Hartford Adjusters have been a bit less successful going 18-5 . they have signed 64 players.... all signing are veterans who were not getting contracts from other teams. Big showdown between the 2 teams next week,...

01-11-2014, 10:29 PM	#13
Snarf054 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 127	Just go into commisioner mode and take him, then make his salary whatever amount you want to pay for him that much higher for the season.