AI using insider knowledge of FA - Page 2

le receveur · 01-03-2014, 01:03 AM

np. as i said i really posted this as a novelty. and i was a bit harsh.

interesting on you seeing all your transaction. can you highlight where you get the history on releases, my league history index does not show them...

Bluenoser · 01-03-2014, 10:28 AM

nm

EKomrska15 · 01-03-2014, 12:50 PM

I'm a little confused on this...

Player is released he IMMEDIATELY goes to free agent pool and you have an opportunity to sign him right there just like the AI does.

Now when is the player showing up in the free agent pool would be my question because I'm guessing and this is just a guess. That it happens right before their game is summed and thus you are probably in the rotation of playing your game and have already missed out on that. Now, could you check for free agents after all games are played and not advance for the day? Sure you can.

le receveur · 01-03-2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EKomrska15

I'm a little confused on this...

Player is released he IMMEDIATELY goes to free agent pool and you have an opportunity to sign him right there just like the AI does.

Now when is the player showing up in the free agent pool would be my question because I'm guessing and this is just a guess. That it happens right before their game is summed and thus you are probably in the rotation of playing your game and have already missed out on that. Now, could you check for free agents after all games are played and not advance for the day? Sure you can.

not sure i understand. Guy was under team's control in minor league. the first time i am informed he was available, through the transaction of the league i access his profile and he is already signed by another organisation. when was i able to sign him?

(also note since he was signed by the minor league team, that transaction doesn't show in transactions in my dynasty, which means it must be set up differently than Rich (would love to see how yours show, so i can send a bug report for mine). i used the 2013 quickstart btw)

EKomrska15 · 01-03-2014, 01:32 PM

It's irrelevant if the guy was released as a minor leaguer or not.

He is still listed in the free agency screen. Keep in mind if are just summing days and then looking over things before you play the next set of games my assumption is players get released before the game of their team is played and not upon instantaneously flipping to the next day.

BIG17EASY · 01-03-2014, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

not sure i understand. Guy was under team's control in minor league. the first time i am informed he was available, through the transaction of the league i access his profile and he is already signed by another organisation. when was i able to sign him?

(also note since he was signed by the minor league team, that transaction doesn't show in transactions in my dynasty, which means it must be set up differently than Rich (would love to see how yours show, so i can send a bug report for mine). i used the 2013 quickstart btw)

What he was saying is, perhaps the player is released at the start of the day and is then signed AFTER you play/sim your games for that day without advancing to the next day. So he's released and signed on the same day, but not at the same exact moment. If that's true (I don't know if it is), then you'd have a tiny window to see and sign the player.

EKomrska15 · 01-03-2014, 01:35 PM

Basically this is what I mean...

Player A is released and then he gets populated into the FREE AGENT screen.

If you aren't checking that I suggest you do. If you are then my assumption is player A gets released when Team A plays their game for that day and you have clicked the "finish today" option and thus missing out on this player.

I never review transaction to see when players are released I'm checking the FA screen for players.

le receveur · 01-03-2014, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EKomrska15

Basically this is what I mean...

Player A is released and then he gets populated into the FREE AGENT screen.

If you aren't checking that I suggest you do. If you are then my assumption is player A gets released when Team A plays their game for that day and you have clicked the "finish today" option and thus missing out on this player.

I never review transaction to see when players are released I'm checking the FA screen for players.

interesting. so guys would be FA before they hit the transaction wire. this seems counter intuitive, and this is why i always look at the wire. i guess i'll have to change the way i play. how do you find out who the new FA are?

Lukas Berger · 01-03-2014, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EKomrska15

Basically this is what I mean...

Player A is released and then he gets populated into the FREE AGENT screen.

If you aren't checking that I suggest you do. If you are then my assumption is player A gets released when Team A plays their game for that day and you have clicked the "finish today" option and thus missing out on this player.

I never review transaction to see when players are released I'm checking the FA screen for players.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right and have hit on what's going on here.

endgame · 01-03-2014, 02:25 PM

I'm not offering anything definitive, only an initial reaction. One, I don't personally see why the RL or the game has any obligation to allow me a contract offer, but that's just me. Especially in these fringe player instances, I don't have to rationalize to envision a scenario where a player is released, for whatever reason obtains an offer from another team and moves forward with no regrets or sense of marketability. He simply takes the offer and has a new job, regardless of any inferred or desired protocol. Two, for a lot of years, this game lacked sufficient AI aggressiveness in trying to secure available player opportunities. Almost without fail, a new FA (even one created) would allow the offer from the human-owned team and, again, without exception, sign with that team. The AI either didn't see him, wasn't interested, or we weren't privy to any offers. My guess is the either the first or second. In v14, I've no doubt the AI awareness was, indeed, tweaked, to be more aware of viable candidates on the wire and in the FA pool, so I'm guessing- even though this is an uncommon and unique same day occurrence -that it'd be in keeping with that more aggressive approach, and frankly it doesn't bother me. I respect all of your opinions, but my own is simply that there isn't, nor should there be, any inherent obligation by any player to allow free market bids, should he decide to grab an immediate offer. It doesn't have to mean we're slow or lacked appropriate opportunity. It may simply mean he liked the first bite of the apple and swallowed it, worm and all. I'm okay with that.

You should, I have, noticed that in v14 the AI is a bit more respondent to the decent player on the waiver wire. At least more than versions past, if its payroll allows it. Yes, the waiver wire is a bit different animal, but the philosophy of get what's good for you remains in place, subject to claim priorities of course, and there are none in the FA pool.

BIG17EASY · 01-03-2014, 02:30 PM

I agree with endgame. If this was a common thing happening all the time and affected the major free agents, then we might have an issue. It's also not unrealistic, as this happens occasionally in real life. A player may ask for his release because he knows he has a better opportunity with another team, so the release and signing could happen on the same day. And it's usually with minor league guys with little or no big league future. (The exception being players who have a clause in their contract saying they have to be on the big league roster by a certain day or they can request their release.)

bwburke94 · 01-03-2014, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

i'll keep looking for the one i saw but look at the Aug 1 transaction on this one. i really doubt i saw when KC releases PedroAttachment 319351

edit: i also feel bad for poor Pedro. this is worse than Caspar

A quintuple sign-and-release? Not quite Curtis Borkholder levels, but close.

Anyway, the "rules" of OOTP prevent players from signing with a human team until 2 days have passed since the contract was offered. The bug is that AI teams are not subject to those limits.

hefalumps · 01-03-2014, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You did have a shot at him - he was on your team for 30 days, so you had plenty of time to sign him.

EDIT: Never mind - I just saw you edited your post to say never mind. :-)

But the problem is that the player in question never shows up as a free agent. It's not that I didn't check the FA board and the signing was done after games were played. I hit "Finish Day", and the player was released and signed by someone else as the day changed - before I was able to make an offer. He skipped the FA board entirely.

I also agree it's not a big deal because it's only happening with "fringe" players, but it is something that could easily be addressed by having some kind of OOTP rule that requires a player who is released be a free agent for at least one full day before being able to sign somewhere else.

EKomrska15 · 01-04-2014, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hefalumps

EDIT: Never mind - I just saw you edited your post to say never mind. :-)

But the problem is that the player in question never shows up as a free agent. It's not that I didn't check the FA board and the signing was done after games were played. I hit "Finish Day", and the player was released and signed by someone else as the day changed - before I was able to make an offer. He skipped the FA board entirely.

I also agree it's not a big deal because it's only happening with "fringe" players, but it is something that could easily be addressed by having some kind of OOTP rule that requires a player who is released be a free agent for at least one full day before being able to sign somewhere else.

So it sounds like what is happening is exactly what I detailed. Player most likely gets released when it's his teams org time to play and then gets signed after that. However, it is my guess if you just choose to play your game and sim each game individually you'd see him appear in FA for that brief time period. I've been offering this as the most likely scenario so now this pretty solidifies it.

le receveur · 01-04-2014, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EKomrska15

So it sounds like what is happening is exactly what I detailed. Player most likely gets released when it's his teams org time to play and then gets signed after that. However, it is my guess if you just choose to play your game and sim each game individually you'd see him appear in FA for that brief time period. I've been offering this as the most likely scenario so now this pretty solidifies it.

i'm interested in testing this. how do You track new FA, if they are not listed in the transaction?..

RchW · 01-04-2014, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

i'm interested in testing this. how do You track new FA, if they are not listed in the transaction?..

The free agent page, double arrows on the menu bar. I have it as F7 in every league I play. I'm seriously confused. Are you telling me you don't check this page every other day?

It still may be a bug. What we have to confirm is if a released player appears on the FA page at any time in the day he was released.

If this doesn't happen then it is a must-fix bug.

le receveur · 01-04-2014, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

The free agent page, double arrows on the menu bar. I have it as F7 in every league I play. I'm seriously confused. Are you telling me you don't check this page every other day?

It still may be a bug. What we have to confirm is if a released player appears on the FA page at any time in the day he was released.

If this doesn't happen then it is a must-fix bug.

i have not found a way to see which one is new in that screen. how do you do it? i don't see dates in the filters

RchW · 01-05-2014, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by le receveur

i have not found a way to see which one is new in that screen. how do you do it? i don't see dates in the filters

I don't look for who is new. Sorting by overall ratings and/or filtering by position work for me.

Outside the winter FA period through ST, 95% of FA in-season are non-entities. The 5% that may be entities are relatively easy to spot.

YMMV

Bluenoser · 01-05-2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hefalumps

EDIT: Never mind - I just saw you edited your post to say never mind. :-)

But the problem is that the player in question never shows up as a free agent. It's not that I didn't check the FA board and the signing was done after games were played. I hit "Finish Day", and the player was released and signed by someone else as the day changed - before I was able to make an offer. He skipped the FA board entirely.

I also agree it's not a big deal because it's only happening with "fringe" players, but it is something that could easily be addressed by having some kind of OOTP rule that requires a player who is released be a free agent for at least one full day before being able to sign somewhere else.

Gotcha

It's a catch 22 sort of.

The Wolf · 01-05-2014, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I don't look for who is new. Sorting by overall ratings and/or filtering by position work for me.

Outside the winter FA period through ST, 95% of FA in-season are non-entities. The 5% that may be entities are relatively easy to spot.

^ This.

01-03-2014, 10:28 AM	#22
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,214	nm Last edited by Bluenoser; 01-03-2014 at 10:42 AM.

01-03-2014, 02:25 PM	#30
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	I'm not offering anything definitive, only an initial reaction. One, I don't personally see why the RL or the game has any obligation to allow me a contract offer, but that's just me. Especially in these fringe player instances, I don't have to rationalize to envision a scenario where a player is released, for whatever reason obtains an offer from another team and moves forward with no regrets or sense of marketability. He simply takes the offer and has a new job, regardless of any inferred or desired protocol. Two, for a lot of years, this game lacked sufficient AI aggressiveness in trying to secure available player opportunities. Almost without fail, a new FA (even one created) would allow the offer from the human-owned team and, again, without exception, sign with that team. The AI either didn't see him, wasn't interested, or we weren't privy to any offers. My guess is the either the first or second. In v14, I've no doubt the AI awareness was, indeed, tweaked, to be more aware of viable candidates on the wire and in the FA pool, so I'm guessing- even though this is an uncommon and unique same day occurrence -that it'd be in keeping with that more aggressive approach, and frankly it doesn't bother me. I respect all of your opinions, but my own is simply that there isn't, nor should there be, any inherent obligation by any player to allow free market bids, should he decide to grab an immediate offer. It doesn't have to mean we're slow or lacked appropriate opportunity. It may simply mean he liked the first bite of the apple and swallowed it, worm and all. I'm okay with that. You should, I have, noticed that in v14 the AI is a bit more respondent to the decent player on the waiver wire. At least more than versions past, if its payroll allows it. Yes, the waiver wire is a bit different animal, but the philosophy of get what's good for you remains in place, subject to claim priorities of course, and there are none in the FA pool. __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

01-03-2014, 01:03 AM	#21
le receveur All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: canada Posts: 1,736	np. as i said i really posted this as a novelty. and i was a bit harsh. interesting on you seeing all your transaction. can you highlight where you get the history on releases, my league history index does not show them...

01-03-2014, 12:50 PM	#23
EKomrska15 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,533	I'm a little confused on this... Player is released he IMMEDIATELY goes to free agent pool and you have an opportunity to sign him right there just like the AI does. Now when is the player showing up in the free agent pool would be my question because I'm guessing and this is just a guess. That it happens right before their game is summed and thus you are probably in the rotation of playing your game and have already missed out on that. Now, could you check for free agents after all games are played and not advance for the day? Sure you can.

01-03-2014, 01:32 PM	#25
EKomrska15 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,533	It's irrelevant if the guy was released as a minor leaguer or not. He is still listed in the free agency screen. Keep in mind if are just summing days and then looking over things before you play the next set of games my assumption is players get released before the game of their team is played and not upon instantaneously flipping to the next day.

01-03-2014, 01:35 PM	#27
EKomrska15 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,533	Basically this is what I mean... Player A is released and then he gets populated into the FREE AGENT screen. If you aren't checking that I suggest you do. If you are then my assumption is player A gets released when Team A plays their game for that day and you have clicked the "finish today" option and thus missing out on this player. I never review transaction to see when players are released I'm checking the FA screen for players.

01-03-2014, 02:30 PM	#31
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	I agree with endgame. If this was a common thing happening all the time and affected the major free agents, then we might have an issue. It's also not unrealistic, as this happens occasionally in real life. A player may ask for his release because he knows he has a better opportunity with another team, so the release and signing could happen on the same day. And it's usually with minor league guys with little or no big league future. (The exception being players who have a clause in their contract saying they have to be on the big league roster by a certain day or they can request their release.)