Developer Update Thread (last update: 11/14/2013)

[omjo]

Originally Posted by traveler99

Still after all this time, we get this bullcrap in circles...how about you name something WHAT you are working on...we have heard the story from Brad and Jeff many times before already that you are working on. Is not that hard to keep up to date your customers right?

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Of course they have effects on development/scouting. Maybe not enough.

Hell, just one post later I tell you more (damn you ): development (including training) and scouting are both areas we rethought.

[omjo]

Originally Posted by Penfold75

Well lets see I paid money for a game to have fun. I paid money for this game in good faith. What I got was a game that was released full of bugs, clearly under tested and doesn't deliver the most basic options and functions of the type of game it is i.e. a Hockey Management game. This game is still bug laden and not working how it should after three patches.

Maybe you should get back to work on fixing the sub standard game you produced instead of making what you obviously think is a smart comment.

I've been playing it for a good week straight, now that I have time to. Besides a few bugs here and there, I'm on my 7th season right now and enjoying it.

It does have the most basic options/functions.

[Duranium]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Happy new year everyone!

Since the last maintenance patch (to be correct: even 4 weeks earlier) we work on a patch that has the internal code-name "fun-patch". Using the forum (and our own opinion) as feedback we identified the 3-4 areas of the game that needed an upgrade to make them (and the game) more fun to play. 2 areas are already in testing and need some more tweaking to get it right and 1 (big) area needs some more coding before it is ready for testing. Another area already has a few changes to it but still needs some work before it is finished.

Once we have everything in testing we will give you more details about the changes.

So to make it a bit clearer: the next patch will have bug-fixes (as always) but also 3-4 completely redesigned areas to make the game more fun to play.

Hey Sebastian....happy new year too

Just out of curiosity - will the FA, european players signing, historical ratings display issues also be adressed with the next major update ?

[Orioles1966]

I have zero bugs when playing. The only problem I have is at the beginning of every new custom league,some rosters aren't filled with players and there is no way too know which teams are shorthanded without going through every team individually. I guess the warning feature in OOTP(not enough players on a team) won't be available in FHM.


One thing that is getting old in a hurry is the lack of options in schedules for custom leagues. Every 30 team league's schedule(at least for me) seems to mirror the current NHL schedule.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Penfold75

Well lets see I paid money for a game to have fun. I paid money for this game in good faith. What I got was a game that was released full of bugs, clearly under tested and doesn't deliver the most basic options and functions of the type of game it is i.e. a Hockey Management game. This game is still bug laden and not working how it should after three patches.

Maybe you should get back to work on fixing the sub standard game you produced instead of making what you obviously think is a smart comment.

It was a smart comment. Clearly, you are unhappy with us and the game (and I respect your opinion). You have a (good) alternative with EHM 2007, so why do you keep posting here about FHM? I sent you a PM so we can work it out, I guess that is best for all of us.

[archibalduk]

I completely agree with Lukasberger's sentiments; FHM is still early in its development right now.

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Most games would have a private beta testing period you wouldn't even know was happening.

FHM had to try something different so they had a public beta.

FHM had (and still has) private beta testing. The private testing started well in advance of the public beta test. IIRC the public testing was offered because the release date had been put back once or twice.

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Overall though, of course EHM is better than FHM is now, it had four-five years of development and three versions to get there as opposed to 1 year+ and one version.

Yeah, development of EHM ran from about 2003 until January 2007 (so that's roughly 4 years, maybe a little less). I'm absolutely not trying to troll (there's more than enough of that here!), but in actual fact FHM was originally announced in October 2011 and so that's been running for over 2 years now. Although at the time of that announcement, Sebastian already had a working match engine which he had been developing for some years beforehand. So personally I don't see that big of a gulf between the length of time EHM and FHM have been developed. EHM's dev team was roughly the same size as FHM's (EHM had two full time coders; as has FHM). EHM had the benefit of Champ Man's framework and FHM had OOTP's.

I think the gulf appears when you consider the direction each game has taken. EHM concentrated on the core hockey gameplay whereas FHM has spent a lot of time on customisation and a lack of hard-coding. One of EHM's major flaws was the hardcoded rules and league structures (and even some hardcoded team names) whereas FHM's weakness right now is the lack of depth and the awkward UI. Both games currently have AI quirks/bugs.

The huge advantage FHM has over EHM is that it is still in active development. Once the depth and UI issues have been addressed, FHM will be a tremendous game. Once things like the match engine, scouting, hiring staff, contracts, player development, the user interface, etc have been ironed out, we'll have a really great game - add in the fact that we have a very large number of playable leagues, customisable rules/settings and a historic mode. I think that's something to be very positive about. It's just going to take some time to get there.

I really feel for Sebastian and Malte. They have been working and coding tirelessly for 2+ years on this game now. They have admitted they had their priorities wrong and they seem to have gotten criticised for it on a daily basis since the first release. It's got to be pretty hurtful to see some of the comments some users post about their work. That said, and as much as I love EHM (despite its many flaws/bugs), I still want see people purchasing FHM. Surely the more people that purchase the game, the more money for OOTP to continue developing FHM. If nothing else, purchasing the game is at the very least an investment.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Archibalduk words it better then I ever could. Just two small corrections (not that I think it matters but still):

1. On paper we are 2 coders for FHM but I have to do iOOTP as well and Malte is not a trained coder. He works his ass off every day but still needs to learn a lot of stuff.

2. FHM looks like OOTP but we use a completely different Framework (not PISD but Qt) and had to build the game from ground up when we joined OOTP. The stuff we were able to use from OOTP are not that many, News Engine, eSellerate and maybe 1-2 other techniques (and even that had to be transfered to Qt). Don't get me wrong, even the "little" stuff we could use helped a lot but we are not able to use the "OOTP framework".

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Duranium

Hey Sebastian....happy new year too

Just out of curiosity - will the FA, european players signing, historical ratings display issues also be adressed with the next major update ?

Thanks!

Can you give me a short heads up about the problems (so I don't have to dig it up)?

[traveler99]

Originally Posted by archibalduk

I completely agree with Lukasberger's sentiments; FHM is still early in its development right now.



FHM had (and still has) private beta testing. The private testing started well in advance of the public beta test. IIRC the public testing was offered because the release date had been put back once or twice.



Yeah, development of EHM ran from about 2003 until January 2007 (so that's roughly 4 years, maybe a little less). I'm absolutely not trying to troll (there's more than enough of that here!), but in actual fact FHM was originally announced in October 2011 and so that's been running for over 2 years now. Although at the time of that announcement, Sebastian already had a working match engine which he had been developing for some years beforehand. So personally I don't see that big of a gulf between the length of time EHM and FHM have been developed. EHM's dev team was roughly the same size as FHM's (EHM had two full time coders; as has FHM). EHM had the benefit of Champ Man's framework and FHM had OOTP's.

I think the gulf appears when you consider the direction each game has taken. EHM concentrated on the core hockey gameplay whereas FHM has spent a lot of time on customisation and a lack of hard-coding. One of EHM's major flaws was the hardcoded rules and league structures (and even some hardcoded team names) whereas FHM's weakness right now is the lack of depth and the awkward UI. Both games currently have AI quirks/bugs.

The huge advantage FHM has over EHM is that it is still in active development. Once the depth and UI issues have been addressed, FHM will be a tremendous game. Once things like the match engine, scouting, hiring staff, contracts, player development, the user interface, etc have been ironed out, we'll have a really great game - add in the fact that we have a very large number of playable leagues, customisable rules/settings and a historic mode. I think that's something to be very positive about. It's just going to take some time to get there.

I really feel for Sebastian and Malte. They have been working and coding tirelessly for 2+ years on this game now. They have admitted they had their priorities wrong and they seem to have gotten criticised for it on a daily basis since the first release. It's got to be pretty hurtful to see some of the comments some users post about their work. That said, and as much as I love EHM (despite its many flaws/bugs), I still want see people purchasing FHM. Surely the more people that purchase the game, the more money for OOTP to continue developing FHM. If nothing else, purchasing the game is at the very least an investment.

nicely said, though my opinion is that they should have coded/ironed it out more before going public with it, the public "Free" beta felt more like a kickstarter project than a really beta as its not much better condition currently than what it was almost a year ago and lets not forget can Sebastian tell us when is gonna be the crunch time cut of for this version? at some point they must start to work on next version or it will be pointless to release it just same game but fixed bugs out more like 14+ than 15 if like this. Also can add the outrageous advertising they have out for this game with slogans like "Most Deepest etc etc. the only game you need..." they could have tone it done bit atleast before the game is anywhere near now it feel like a joke to read those lines and see the game at its state what it is. I do hope this project works at some point as there is never enough hockey games around but be more ethical with things and don't promise the moon and stars if you cannot deliver, make shorter goals and release them out and work from there out.

[archibalduk]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Archibalduk words it better then I ever could. Just two small corrections (not that I think it matters but still):

1. On paper we are 2 coders for FHM but I have to do iOOTP as well and Malte is not a trained coder. He works his ass off every day but still needs to learn a lot of stuff.

Ah yes, of course! How could I forget! There have of course been a few times where you've had to down tools and spend time on iOOTP.

Thanks for correcting me on those two points!

[AlpineSK]

See, I completely disagree with this. I don't think FHM LOOKS much like OOTP at all.

The game could come a long way for me if it adopted the interface, mainly with roster screens, roster moves, and getting rid of the ability scale and giving us at least the OPTION to use STARS.

Let's also try and minimize the space between player names and ratings.. It makes things more difficult to use and looks terrible..

And speaking of options, if we are not going to be able to toggle a check box or enable an option, why tease us and put it in the game for months on end??

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Archibalduk words it better then I ever could. Just two small corrections (not that I think it matters but still):

2. FHM looks like OOTP but we use a completely different Framework (not PISD but Qt) and had to build the game from ground up when we joined OOTP. The stuff we were able to use from OOTP are not that many, News Engine, eSellerate and maybe 1-2 other techniques (and even that had to be transfered to Qt). Don't get me wrong, even the "little" stuff we could use helped a lot but we are not able to use the "OOTP framework".

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

See, I completely disagree with this. I don't think FHM LOOKS much like OOTP at all.

The game could come a long way for me if it adopted the interface, mainly with roster screens, roster moves, and getting rid of the ability scale and giving us at least the OPTION to use STARS.

Let's also try and minimize the space between player names and ratings.. It makes things more difficult to use and looks terrible..

And speaking of options, if we are not going to be able to toggle a check box or enable an option, why tease us and put it in the game for months on end??

Which demonstrates my point: FHM is not based on the OOTP Framework, it is build from zero using a different framework.

And for everyone like you ("adopt even more from the OOTP interface") I get at least one "The Interface sucks, make it more like EHM". I can't win, whatever I do I get angry posts. Your example with the names column is perfect: tbh, I don't like the way OOTP does it (making all columns bigger, not only one). Then you have e.g. an Age column that is way bigger then needed. Different tastes I guess. But if everyone wants it that way, I will change it.

For the disabled options, you are absolutely right! They exist from a time when we wanted to much. Now we can do 2 things: remove them (and add them whenever it works as intended) or enable them and take the risk of new bugs. Whatever I do, I will get angry posts here. I know that is completely our fault and I don't want to whine, just want to show how hard it is to get it right.

[Duranium]

Seb, just curious...did you get my PM ?

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Duranium

Seb, just curious...did you get my PM ?

Yes, thank you very much! I will look tomorrow and report back. Regarding your request, that should be possible as option.

[PromisedPain]

I'm glad to see you're working on raising the fun factor. Have you already fixed the problem with attributes, where they couldn't go past 20? Thanks.

I have high hopes for the patch.

[Mickeyb37]

Originally Posted by omjo

I've been playing it for a good week straight, now that I have time to. Besides a few bugs here and there, I'm on my 7th season right now and enjoying it.

It does have the most basic options/functions.

Think the point Penfold meant was that the basic functions don't work as they should. Trading is woeful, Free Agent signing isn't great, you can't use waivers properly, Drafting has a lot of bugs, when you edit data it caused problems elsewhere and not being able to sign prospects to two way contracts or at all is a big issue.

[Mickeyb37]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

It was a smart comment. Clearly, you are unhappy with us and the game (and I respect your opinion). You have a (good) alternative with EHM 2007, so why do you keep posting here about FHM? I sent you a PM so we can work it out, I guess that is best for all of us.

I think he keeps posting here because he paid for your game and wants the game and the communication with the users to be improved.

[drewst18]

Honestly I think having sebastien active on the boards would go such a long way to easing people's frustrations.

The most frustrating thing is that we go weeks without hearing from people. Even if its 10 minutes a day or a developer blog just something to interact with us and say these are the things were working on.

I think that is the biggest thing is that there is such a big disconnect from the devs to consumer. The type you see from say EA or THQ not something you normally see from a small production.

[Duranium]

Originally Posted by drewst18

Honestly I think having sebastien active on the boards would go such a long way to easing people's frustrations.

The most frustrating thing is that we go weeks without hearing from people. Even if its 10 minutes a day or a developer blog just something to interact with us and say these are the things were working on.

I think that is the biggest thing is that there is such a big disconnect from the devs to consumer. The type you see from say EA or THQ not something you normally see from a small production.

Indeed, I think most ppl can accept this is kinda work in progress with huge potential as long we don´t get the impression that Sebastian´s MIA

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by archibalduk

...
I really feel for Sebastian and Malte. They have been working and coding tirelessly for 2+ years on this game now. They have admitted they had their priorities wrong and they seem to have gotten criticised for it on a daily basis since the first release. It's got to be pretty hurtful to see some of the comments some users post about their work. That said, and as much as I love EHM (despite its many flaws/bugs), I still want see people purchasing FHM. Surely the more people that purchase the game, the more money for OOTP to continue developing FHM. If nothing else, purchasing the game is at the very least an investment.

Thank you, what a great post! Especially the last part quoted above.

You said much better in one post, what it took me 5-6 posts to try to say.

I just wish folks would lay off Sebastian, Malte and Jeff and wait patiently to see just how great this game is going to turn out to be.