FHM Database 2 - Electric Aliu (now with MORE data!)

[korfy]

I also hope it's not overlooked by the devs. They should employ this guy.

[JeffR]

It's not being overlooked, I'm reading all of it. But with all due respect to Ciccarelli, I have my own long-term saves, access to debugging tools he doesn't have, and knowledge of how the game systems are coded. In most cases, I'm already aware of the issues posted here, and I'm working on correcting them. But it's not a process that's friendly towards making radical changes - when you start doing that, you get acquainted with the law of unintended consequences in a big hurry, and wind up doing more harm than good. So I make incremental improvements to a few systems, make sure they don't result in anything else going wrong, and gradually improve the whole model.

Which isn't to say that these posts aren't useful to me. They provide me with a lot of good clues about what is, and isn't, working as intended, that I might not have thought to investigate otherwise. So I hope he keeps making them, and I'm grateful for the help.

[Puckhead]

Originally Posted by JeffR

It's not being overlooked, I'm reading all of it. But with all due respect to Ciccarelli, I have my own long-term saves, access to debugging tools he doesn't have, and knowledge of how the game systems are coded. In most cases, I'm already aware of the issues posted here, and I'm working on correcting them. But it's not a process that's friendly towards making radical changes - when you start doing that, you get acquainted with the law of unintended consequences in a big hurry, and wind up doing more harm than good. So I make incremental improvements to a few systems, make sure they don't result in anything else going wrong, and gradually improve the whole model.

Which isn't to say that these posts aren't useful to me. They provide me with a lot of good clues about what is, and isn't, working as intended, that I might not have thought to investigate otherwise. So I hope he keeps making them, and I'm grateful for the help.

Thanks for having the balls to post in such a thread. If I think of the EA Sports Forums... I think I never saw someone of the dev team posting there and thanking for bug reports and constructive criticism to make the game better.

[jayze302]

Benefit of being a small Dev, you do not have to pretend like you know everything.

Good to see these things are being worked on, can't wait for the patches that start to get these systems working right.

[Ciccarelli]

Originally Posted by JeffR

It's not being overlooked, I'm reading all of it. But with all due respect to Ciccarelli, I have my own long-term saves, access to debugging tools he doesn't have, and knowledge of how the game systems are coded. In most cases, I'm already aware of the issues posted here, and I'm working on correcting them. But it's not a process that's friendly towards making radical changes - when you start doing that, you get acquainted with the law of unintended consequences in a big hurry, and wind up doing more harm than good. So I make incremental improvements to a few systems, make sure they don't result in anything else going wrong, and gradually improve the whole model.

Which isn't to say that these posts aren't useful to me. They provide me with a lot of good clues about what is, and isn't, working as intended, that I might not have thought to investigate otherwise. So I hope he keeps making them, and I'm grateful for the help.

That's what I had figured. I was never looking to reinvent the wheel with this sort of thing, just thought that there were only two/three programmers on the game and you guys could use another set of eyes for analysis (that and I got really carried away with it, especially in this little thread). I may be critical of the game and certain aspects of it right now, but it's because me and many others see the potential that this game can offer. We want nothing more than for it to succeed and if I can help out in some way, I reward myself as well as everybody else (because, first and foremost, I want a good game for myself. Sorry, kids).

But glad to see that this stuff is of some use to you guys (I believe I saw Sebastian comment on the previous thread as well). Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by Alessandro

What was it

It was Hossmann. I didn't do much back then, mainly talk about regens and coaching tactics, I believe I got on the beta testing team because of a review I did of EHM05 on Amazon (but that's just a thought).

Originally Posted by korfy

They should employ this guy.

Employ me for what? I have nothing to offer from a programming standpoint (I've dabbled in programming, but that was when I was in high school and never really got into it) and I can do what anyone else on this board can do, that being simple number crunching and analyzing data for trends/movement.

I'm kinda stunned that this "work" has gotten a bit of attention on here, but I'm not trying to one-up the developers in any way (although it could be thought of as such, I guess).

[Alessandro]

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli

It was Hossmann.

Don't remember you, Dino

[jayze302]

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli

Employ me for what? I have nothing to offer from a programming standpoint (I've dabbled in programming, but that was when I was in high school and never really got into it) and I can do what anyone else on this board can do, that being simple number crunching and analyzing data for trends/movement.

I'm kinda stunned that this "work" has gotten a bit of attention on here, but I'm not trying to one-up the developers in any way (although it could be thought of as such, I guess).

Good play testing is very valuable, and that is what you are providing. And I think from the devs responses, they do not get the "one-up" feeling.

Keep it up! If these kind of things can be fixed, I will never sleep again lol!

[Ciccarelli]

Originally Posted by Alessandro

Don't remember you, Dino

As I said, I didn't post that much when I was there. Wasn't as vocal as someone like, say, mgsports.

[Alessandro]

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli

As I said, I didn't post that much when I was there. Wasn't as vocal as someone like, say, mgsports.

Two different kinds of awesomeness

[Ciccarelli]

I decided to simulate to 2045 (in order to fully “retire” the original players in the database) and I’ve noticed a few more trends, some good, actually. Not going to beat dead horses, so I’ll keep it brief (and you know how well I’ve been doing that…)
____________________________________

- I’ve noticed that the aging process seems to have been improved quite a bit. There are FAR more players who are in the league over the age of 35 (some are still key players for their teams as well), but some of them have some really weird ways of getting to the NHL (ex. 37-year-old Cody Smith was drafted by the Carolina Hurricanes [5th round], got cut, spent a few years in the AHL before moving to England to play in the EIHL for three years, spends one year in the ECHL, moves across the pond to play for Almtuna IS for a majority of his prime years (27-33) before being making his NHL debut with Calgary at the age of 34. He’s then traded to Carolina, where he’s spent the last three years on their fourth line [his aging is at 20, so I’m assuming he’s still at his peak ability]). However, that has more to do with AI mismanagement than any interesting turn of events (and that’s been beaten to death on here). I’ve even seen the rare occasion where a player remains a contributor into his mid-40’s (the one that comes to me is Nathan MacKinnon, who played at the NHL level for Colorado until the age of 44). But looks like good progress in this regard. I’m still trying to figure out how the aging attribute actually increases or drops, but much better nonetheless.

- As I believe has been mentioned by Jeff in the patch thread, scoring is too low. There was only one 50-goal scorer, but the next highest goal scorer is at 42 goals (no one else over 40 goals) and the Art Ross winner has only 75 points on the season (three players over 70 points). A ton of goalies also have save percentages over 93 percent (the worst full-time goalie in the league had a GAA of 2.79 and a SV% of .912). But as I said, I think they know about this one already.

- The “personnel” section takes a long time to load, probably due to the massive amount of coaches available in the game. It took the game so long that I thought it froze on me (even though it didn’t, because I’ve seen it go slow in long-term games as well). EDIT: Looks like it did end up crashing on me. The screen never loaded after a half-hour.
____________________________________

For those of you who don’t want to go back and look at a ton of data, here’s a Craigslist-style summary:

- The AI is quickly signing, and then releasing a ton of players it drafted in the NHL and KHL drafts in the preceding months (including first-rounders).
- The AI is hoarding marginal talent over the age of 30 in its minor league systems, especially European players, letting them rot on reserve rosters instead of play in a lesser league.
- The KHL has a lot of older players (40+) in it, but most of them are withered down to useless albatrosses (abilities of 4.5 or lower).
- The scouting in the game is too pinpoint, rarely fluctuating up or down unless they’ve reached their aging point, where it falls to their current ability.
- The draft doesn’t have much talent in it, and those that are talented are near-pinpointedly selected by the AI. Doesn’t mean that the draft is top-heavy (it actually isn’t, but it’s probably more due to AI mismanagement), but it means that players are chosen for their “true” potential instead of a “perceived” potential based on statistics and scout analysis.
- Some teams are exceeding their contract maximums at the NHL level, some by an obscene amount (74, in one case).
- The game has a (surprisingly) nifty aging attribute, but most players still peak and decline too early (IMO) and development all but stops when a player turns 25 (due to the player peak age being set at 25).
- Players develop minimally when in a lesser league (such as the ECHL, Oberliga or NCAA), but develop faster and more polished when they are rushed onto major clubs (NHL, KHL, etc.).
- Very young players (18-20) are frequently scratched, placed on the bottom lines and are traded, sometimes to multiple teams, when at the NHL level.
- Some players in Europe (in the KHL, VHL and Oberliga, mostly) are not signed by the teams whose rights are held by them (understandable in the KHL, but the other two?), sometimes not being signed for years on end.
_____________________________________

And that’s all I’ve got. It's got a ways to go, but I like the improvement I’ve seen so far and just hope the next patch gets better. Just thinking baby steps right now.

[JeffR]

I should point out one thing here, since I think it's leading to some people drawing incorrect conclusions about the development system: editing potentials to 1000 for 18-year-olds who'd peaked at the 3.0 (NHL-relative) level isn't a valid test of the system. Players who were generated with that kind of potential would have five years of attribute development at that point, usually with starting stats that are higher than average. Typically, at 18 they would have attributes at least 50-100% higher than the 3.0 guys.

And aside from the edited 3.0's starting their post-18 development at a lower beginning point, that also means that the attributes that govern development speed are atypically low for a player that age. So as 18-year-olds they're far behind normal high-potential players, roughly at the level of a Junior B player, and then can't progress at a normal rate because some key attributes are undeveloped. Given those handicaps, it's not surprising that they never come anywhere close to their potential before their time runs out. And it's not really evidence that the development system is broken in this regard, because that kind of player will almost never happen naturally (I don't want to say never, but the odds are extremely long against it, and we're tuning early skater development a little more, for other reasons, which will make it even more unlikely.)

[PromisedPain]

Originally Posted by Ciccarelli

wall of text

Just out of curiosity, have you ever come across a player that has more than 20 in any of the offensive ratings? I've only seen aggression and temperament go over 20 and I'm in year 2043.

And it's not just personnel screen that generates lag. I also lag a lot when going to 'league home screen' to the point where the game almost crashes.

[Ciccarelli]

Originally Posted by JeffR

I should point out one thing here, since I think it's leading to some people drawing incorrect conclusions about the development system: editing potentials to 1000 for 18-year-olds who'd peaked at the 3.0 (NHL-relative) level isn't a valid test of the system. Players who were generated with that kind of potential would have five years of attribute development at that point, usually with starting stats that are higher than average. Typically, at 18 they would have attributes at least 50-100% higher than the 3.0 guys.

And aside from the edited 3.0's starting their post-18 development at a lower beginning point, that also means that the attributes that govern development speed are atypically low for a player that age. So as 18-year-olds they're far behind normal high-potential players, roughly at the level of a Junior B player, and then can't progress at a normal rate because some key attributes are undeveloped. Given those handicaps, it's not surprising that they never come anywhere close to their potential before their time runs out. And it's not really evidence that the development system is broken in this regard, because that kind of player will almost never happen naturally (I don't want to say never, but the odds are extremely long against it, and we're tuning early skater development a little more, for other reasons, which will make it even more unlikely.)

Thanks for the insight as always, sir.

I did want to clarify, though: I didn't manipulate their potentials to see if they would actually develop to their full ability (it was in consideration, however), I did it to see if the AI would be able to detect the change in potential during the draft, and see if they would change their hypothetical draft boards without advance knowledge of their manipulated potential.

Originally Posted by PromisedPain

Just out of curiosity, have you ever come across a player that has more than 20 in any of the offensive ratings? I've only seen aggression and temperament go over 20 and I'm in year 2043.

And it's not just personnel screen that generates lag. I also lag a lot when going to 'league home screen' to the point where the game almost crashes.

Not from what I've seen besides the attributes you've mentioned as well.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by PromisedPain

Just out of curiosity, have you ever come across a player that has more than 20 in any of the offensive ratings? I've only seen aggression and temperament go over 20 and I'm in year 2043.

I remember planning a system to allowing over-20 attributes to develop, but I'm not sure if it was something that got implemented. I'll check and see if it's in there, and if not, if it's possible - otherwise the really high-potential guys are going to wind a little too unvaried offensively, with a cluster of 18/19/20 attributes.

[dave1927p]

Is there any way a separate ageing system for defenceman and goalies can be added. Typically it takes a defenceman longer to develop fully over a forward and even longer for a goalie. A goalies make it of break it range is typically in the age of 24-27 to become a number 1. I really want to be able to see the tough career of goalies implemented in this game. EHM did a terrible job of it.

[Smetana]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

Is there any way a separate ageing system for defenceman and goalies can be added. Typically it takes a defenceman longer to develop fully over a forward and even longer for a goalie. A goalies make it of break it range is typically in the age of 24-27 to become a number 1. I really want to be able to see the tough career of goalies implemented in this game. EHM did a terrible job of it.

Quality idea.

[PromisedPain]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

Is there any way a separate ageing system for defenceman and goalies can be added. Typically it takes a defenceman longer to develop fully over a forward and even longer for a goalie. A goalies make it of break it range is typically in the age of 24-27 to become a number 1. I really want to be able to see the tough career of goalies implemented in this game. EHM did a terrible job of it.

I've also been thinking about this. I think it should be easily doable, it shouldn't be that hard to code if you use the player position to judge whetever the player is D or F. As Ciccarelli already mentioned in this topic, I was too quick to judge the player development, as it seems that you get a lot more quality players when you get to year 2030 and so on. I think the aging for the current players should be increased, so some of them could play for longer, so we could've more quality guys between 2014 and 2030.

And with Jeff looking into if there is something stopping the players from not getting 20+ in a certain ratings, I've a lot of faith in this game. Add face gen and reduce the lag in later years, we're going to have an awesome game already.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by PromisedPain

I've also been thinking about this. I think it should be easily doable, it shouldn't be that hard to code if you use the player position to judge whetever the player is D or F. As Ciccarelli already mentioned in this topic, I was too quick to judge the player development, as it seems that you get a lot more quality players when you get to year 2030 and so on. I think the aging for the current players should be increased, so some of them could play for longer, so we could've more quality guys between 2014 and 2030.

And with Jeff looking into if there is something stopping the players from not getting 20+ in a certain ratings, I've a lot of faith in this game. Add face gen and reduce the lag in later years, we're going to have an awesome game already.

Development is something that not everyone can agree on. I will always love more customization features to help me shape my world the way I want In ootp I always crank the aging to make careers much shorter just because I find it fun for a change. Times were tough in my 1940-1980's baseball world.

I would really love that ability to mix the modern day and fictional mode so I can evolve the modern day the way I see fit. But I digress...as always.

[PromisedPain]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

Development is something that not everyone can agree on. I will always love more customization features to help me shape my world the way I want In ootp I always crank the aging to make careers much shorter just because I find it fun for a change. Times were tough in my 1940-1980's baseball world.

I would really love that ability to mix the modern day and fictional mode so I can evolve the modern day the way I see fit. But I digress...as always.

Yeah, It's hard to please everyone, but everything will come in time.

[Mordrehl]

Originally Posted by JeffR

It's not being overlooked, I'm reading all of it. But with all due respect to Ciccarelli, I have my own long-term saves, access to debugging tools he doesn't have, and knowledge of how the game systems are coded. In most cases, I'm already aware of the issues posted here, and I'm working on correcting them. But it's not a process that's friendly towards making radical changes - when you start doing that, you get acquainted with the law of unintended consequences in a big hurry, and wind up doing more harm than good. So I make incremental improvements to a few systems, make sure they don't result in anything else going wrong, and gradually improve the whole model.

Which isn't to say that these posts aren't useful to me. They provide me with a lot of good clues about what is, and isn't, working as intended, that I might not have thought to investigate otherwise. So I hope he keeps making them, and I'm grateful for the help.

Player Development and Scouting are the two major issues causing me to not want to play FHM at the moment ...

Haven't touched it in a month or so ... but

1) Scouting ... currently, it's far to basic in the information provided. Some sort of assessment of the player is needed ala EHM/OOTP.

2) Player Development ... based on what this thread has revealed, and what you imply ... the overall talent at the NHL level decreases over time. This needs to get addressed.

3) How the AI values talent ... cutting high value prospects for low value vets that sit on the reserve or in the minors doesn't make sense.

There's also a plethora of minor bugs and tweaks that need to be made as well

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3586453