Jack Dempsey and the problem of ratings

[Heleno]

After his victory over Argentinas own Luis Angel Firpo the Heavyweight Champion of the World Jack Dempsey fought only three more times. He lost twice to Jack Tunney on points, but could beat Jack Sharkey via knockout in round 7. So, at the end of his career Dempsey fought with two extraordinary pugilists and still remains competitive at the age of 32. This makes me wonder of how we could classify the stage of Jack Dempsey's career at the point of his battle with Firpo and beyond? Still prime or post-prime?

What do you think?

[Cap]

Firpo might've been his last fight at Prime. He was definitely past it vs Tunney.

Cap

[PWillisTheMan]

I think Dempsey's power is greater than his 8HP, but I find him overrated defensively. Agreed that Tunney was clearly post-prime. His true prime may have been before he won the title.

[Hanson Bros]

he had power for sure but he also was allowed to stand over opponents and knock them back down as soon as they started to get up which helps with your KO ratio

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by Heleno

This makes me wonder of how we could classify the stage of Jack Dempsey's career at the point of his battle with Firpo and beyond? Still prime or post-prime?

What do you think?

I've got four ratings for Dempsey;

1914 - Learning the Trade = 7
1919 - Celebrated Champion = 12
1923 - Hollywood Champ = 10
1926 - Champion in Recess = 9

Haven't looked at these ratings for a while, but always adjust when I do.

Originally Posted by Cap

Firpo might've been his last fight at Prime. He was definitely past it vs Tunney.

Cap

I think Carpentier is perhaps the end of Dempsey's "prime" peak.

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

I think Dempsey's power is greater than his 8HP, but I find him overrated defensively.

I've given Dempsey an 11 hitting power and 0 for defense in his 1919 rating. Without looking hopefully that's relative to my other ratings.

[PWillisTheMan]

Sounds about the same as what I've done though I think I may have him at 10 & +1.

[bob_bask]

Just looked at official ratings, has an overall of 14.

HP of 8 and -2 Defense.

[PWillisTheMan]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Just looked at official ratings, has an overall of 14.

HP of 8 and -2 Defense.

I think I have him as a 12.

[Heleno]

Thank you for all this sophisticated input. The ratings are obviously bound to be subjective which make things not easy. I'm planing to create a current heavyweight universe with a legit titel lineage. I plan to use the annual Ring ratings to determine a mendatory challenger for each year (plus potential title defences) and more or less accurat career stage ratings are quite a challenge for this project.

I would agree that the Firpo fight possible marks the beginning of the post-prime era of Dempsey respectively the end of his prime. Would you say that fights so far, upcoming fights and the factor age ar (more or less) good rank criteria?

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by Heleno

I'm planing to create a current heavyweight universe with a legit titel lineage. I plan to use the annual Ring ratings to determine a mendatory challenger for each year (plus potential title defences) and more or less accurat career stage ratings are quite a challenge for this project.

Interested in understanding what you mean here. Your universe as in current, Wladimir Klitschko as champion and each month meets ring magazine #1? Along right lines?

Originally Posted by Heleno

IWould you say that fights so far, upcoming fights and the factor age ar (more or less) good rank criteria?

Best guys to get into this with are Jackyle and PWillisTheMan. These guys are at the forefront when it comes to rating the currently active boxers.

[Heleno]

Thanks for asking Bob. Basically I will start my HW universe in the year 1924. I will use the annual Ring ratings to find a mandatory challenger for the champion (or a new champion in terms of vacany) via a 8-man-tournament. I think it is a suitable method to "rush" through the years untill I reach the year 2013 (likely 2014). At this point I would like to run a "normal" current universe but with a legit title lineage.

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by Heleno

Thanks for asking Bob. Basically I will start my HW universe in the year 1924. I will use the annual Ring ratings to find a mandatory challenger for the champion (or a new champion in terms of vacany) via a 8-man-tournament. I think it is a suitable method to "rush" through the years untill I reach the year 2013 (likely 2014). At this point I would like to run a "normal" current universe but with a legit title lineage.

If you decide to post I'll be following it.

Simple example, Liston would get his title shot three years early.

However you're likely to find though that after only a few years you'll have created a complete diverged universe, so the Ring's ratings only end up as guide to what boxers are around. (Or that's what I found with my Tyson simulation.)

[Heleno]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

If you decide to post I'll be following it.

I play at least with the idea. But I guess I'm not such a gifted writer like so many here and I'm not a native speaker but maybe I will post the results at least. At least, this would be an option.

Simple example, Liston would get his title shot three years early.

Indeed, the odds for a title shot in 1959 or 1960 would not be that bad. But if someone beats perhaps Pastrano, Moore and Johansson on the road to a title shot he earned it (at least in the opinion of the Boxing Association which sets the guidelines after some titles were not fought in years).

However you're likely to find though that after only a few years you'll have created a complete diverged universe, so the Ring's ratings only end up as guide to what boxers are around. (Or that's what I found with my Tyson simulation.)

This coud easily happen and would be a nice sideeffect. I'm not planning a real historic universe but a legit one in its own rights. But as you say Bob, the Ring ratings will be "just" a guideline but to be honest, I need it as a helping hand.

[bob_bask]

Sounds good. If you do decide post results, would be interested. Regardless, best of luck with it.

[Hanson Bros]

there are definitely some gifted writers in the universe section but then there are guys like me that just post results ... I read most of them, writing or results ... esp. love current universes since mine isn't

[PWillisTheMan]

Some of us talk too much (not that I'm a gifted writer), and many people just skim through the writing for the result. I'd follow along if you post summaries or nothing but the winners and losers. The only way to find the uni you want is to experiment.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Heleno

Thank you for all this sophisticated input. The ratings are obviously bound to be subjective which make things not easy. I'm planing to create a current heavyweight universe with a legit titel lineage. I plan to use the annual Ring ratings to determine a mendatory challenger for each year (plus potential title defences) and more or less accurat career stage ratings are quite a challenge for this project.

I have a universe built on a similar concept, though I started it in 1885 with John L Sullivan KOing Dominick McCaffrey and used the boxrec annual ratings.

I used a simple career stage by age: up to age 22 is beginning, 23-26 is pre-prime, 27-30 is prime, 31-34 is post prime, 35+ is end.

The biggest issue I wound up facing was that Max Schmeling was the heavyweight champ when WWII started.

[Heleno]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Sounds good. If you do decide post results, would be interested. Regardless, best of luck with it.

Originally Posted by Hanson Bros

there are definitely some gifted writers in the universe section but then there are guys like me that just post results ... I read most of them, writing or results ... esp. love current universes since mine isn't

Thank you guys. Well I guess I will share my uni results here. Just need to finish the conceptual phase.

Originally Posted by pilight

I have a universe built on a similar concept, though I started it in 1885 with John L Sullivan KOing Dominick McCaffrey and used the boxrec annual ratings.

I used a simple career stage by age: up to age 22 is beginning, 23-26 is pre-prime, 27-30 is prime, 31-34 is post prime, 35+ is end.

The biggest issue I wound up facing was that Max Schmeling was the heavyweight champ when WWII started.

Thank you for sharing, pilight. A good read for a problem I also thinked about. WWII alone would be some challenge in what to do but the politics around a German World Champion it is a rather intricate affair. I also like your ageing system. Simply focused on the point. I may adopt it if it is okay with you?!

[pilight]

Originally Posted by Heleno

Thank you guys. Well I guess I will share my uni results here. Just need to finish the conceptual phase.



Thank you for sharing, pilight. A good read for a problem I also thinked about. WWII alone would be some challenge in what to do but the politics around a German World Champion it is a rather intricate affair. I also like your ageing system. Simply focused on the point. I may adopt it if it is okay with you?!

Feel free. I've been wondering whether I should extend the prime and post-prime ages in the modern (PED) era, but I rather like the idea that the HW division is lousy because all the fighters are older.