How to create a relegation league format

[Chincoteague Cowboy]

How do you create a relagation league (just like UK soccer) with three or four levels (top three move up, bottom three move down in each level)? I saw the Koana Islands Article and would love to create a smaller version to start off with... any help would be greatly appriciated.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Chincoteague Cowboy

How do you create a relagation league (just like UK soccer) with three or four levels (top three move up, bottom three move down in each level)? I saw the Koana Islands Article and would love to create a smaller version to start off with... any help would be greatly appriciated.

Not entirely sure, but here is an advanced search of "relegation" across 14,13, & 12. Cooleyvol is the only other one i knew that has done relegation leagues other then Koana.
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...archid=1600454

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

I believe the short answer is that you have to create separate major leagues and handle the promotion/relegation manually, using the "edit league structure" feature in the league settings screen. There you can move teams between leagues, sub-leagues, and divisions.

It's a half-solution. Outside of the feeder/minor league construct, OOTP (and the AI) has no concept of one league or another being higher or lower.

EDIT: Actually, the creator of the Koana Islands league responded to the thread about Brad's article and gave some pointers:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3571616

[chucksabr]

I'm looking to do this as well, and I am coming to the conclusion that you have to create separate leagues at separate levels, one major league and various minor leagues, but the minor leagues are unaffiliated with the majors. I think you also might consider fixing the finances of the leagues so that each league level is about half of the league above it.

I know the Koana Islands creator suggests doing all major league levels and just making the difference predicated on, but I am fifteen years into a dry run and while there are certain teams that bounce back and forth, certain other franchises are more fluid and the AI makes them stronger or weaker over time. One team was a new team in Div 1, was in last place, got relegated to Div 2 and sank like a stone to the bottom, bubbled around the bottom of D2 for a few years before fighting its way back up. So I think it possibly can happen.

[tylertoo]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

I believe the short answer is that you have to create separate major leagues and handle the promotion/relegation manually, using the "edit league structure" feature in the league settings screen. There you can move teams between leagues, sub-leagues, and divisions.

These more specific instructions on moving teams are courtesy of spleen1015, creator of the Small League American promotion/relegation quickstart for OOTP11. I have not checked to see if they apply to v14. Thanks should go to him.

Originally Posted by spleen1015

First, for promotion and relegation...

Make sure you are in the preseason. After you sim the first season, the next preseason starts on February 3, 2011. So, sim to this day. To move your teams, follow the below steps.

1. Determine the teams who are moving. ie 7th and 8th place in the 1SLA and 1st and 2nd in the 2SLA.
2. In the Game Setup screen, go to the League Setup tab
3. On the left side of this screen, you want to click on 'Edit League Structure'
4. You should be on the League Configuration screen for the league you currently have active.
5. Find the 2 teams that are moving and move them.
6. In the top right corner, there is a 'Select League' button. Use this to select the other league.
7. Move the other 2 teams to the other league.
8. Go back to the Game Setup screen.
9. On the left, just below 'Edit League Structure', click on 'Edit League Schedule'.
10. On the Schedule Editor screen, click 'Generate Fictional Schedule'.
11. In the top right corner, use the 'Select League' button again to switch leagues.
12. Click the 'Generate Fictional Schedule' again.
13. Your promotion/relegation should be done.

As far as the draft goes, each year on Draft day, You'll have to set the draft order. I believe the game will set the draft order based on their records from the previous year and it doesn't care that they were in separate leagues.

If you are okay with that, you can just leave it alone.

[chucksabr]

One of the things I am having trouble controlling in my promotion/relegation league dry run is the money.

I am trying to keep the leagues separated by a healthy amount of money available to them. I want to have Level 2 running 50-60% of Level 1; Level 3 running 50-75% of Level 2; and Level 4 running 50-75% of Level 3.

I am trying to fix this under League Setup/Financials, and the thing I am trying out now is to have my levels financials fixed by setting the Import Financial Settings, and having lower levels run several years behind upper levels. For example, I am now in 1903, so Level 1 is set at 1903 financial levels; Level 2 is set at 1893 levels; Level 3 set at 1888 levels; and Level 4 set at 1883 levels. I need to futz around to find the right mix of how many years they should track behind, but that's the general idea.

However, an interesting thing is happening: the leagues are not marching forward in time, in lockstep. The next year, Level 1 moves ahead a year. But then, Level 2 leaps ahead to only one year behind level 1. And Level 3 and Level 4 don't move at all. I kind of understand Level 3 and 4 standing still, but I do not know why Level 2 keeps leaping forward to almost the same money as Level 1, especially since L2 is a AAA unaffiliated league and not a major league like L1.

Does anyone have any ideas to how I can fix this issue?

[Fyrestorm3]

I've often harbored ideas about doing this kind of league, but I always run into a very simple, yet very big issue: the AI does not understand that finishing last is worse than finishing in the middle of the pack.

Say you have a couple of 8-team leagues where the top team gets promoted, and the bottom team gets demoted. If the AI has a team sitting in 6th place, a couple games above the 7th and 8th place teams, but totally out of the playoff race, they are going to look at the season like it's a total wash; like there is no difference between finishing in 6th, 7th, or 8th. All three make them miss the playoffs, so in the AI's mind, they're equal, and to that end, it may sell off its players for prospects, and slip down into 8th place. There is no way to make the game understand that while 6th and 7th place are bad, 8th place is disastrous.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I've often harbored ideas about doing this kind of league, but I always run into a very simple, yet very big issue: the AI does not understand that finishing last is worse than finishing in the middle of the pack.

Say you have a couple of 8-team leagues where the top team gets promoted, and the bottom team gets demoted. If the AI has a team sitting in 6th place, a couple games above the 7th and 8th place teams, but totally out of the playoff race, they are going to look at the season like it's a total wash; like there is no difference between finishing in 6th, 7th, or 8th. All three make them miss the playoffs, so in the AI's mind, they're equal, and to that end, it may sell off its players for prospects, and slip down into 8th place. There is no way to make the game understand that while 6th and 7th place are bad, 8th place is disastrous.

Suppose it is possible for AI to recognize this. What do you think should be the practical effect of that? How should AI respond to the circumstance that a team is in danger of being relegated?

In real life, what do teams that are in danger of relegation do in the last few weeks to avoid it? I mean, other than simply playing better? The teams might not be good enough to benefit from using playoff baseball strategies.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Suppose it is possible for AI to recognize this. What do you think should be the practical effect of that? How should AI respond to the circumstance that a team is in danger of being relegated?

In real life, what do teams that are in danger of relegation do in the last few weeks to avoid it? I mean, other than simply playing better? The teams might not be good enough to benefit from using playoff baseball strategies.

I'm not saying that a team in danger of relegation should be able to do something to avoid it - but they certainly shouldn't do something that automatically plummets them into relegation. In the example I gave, teams in 6th or 7th have a tendency to sell off their marquee players for prospects, sending them spiraling head-first into last place. And the AI sees no problem with that, because in a traditional baseball setup, there's really no difference between last or next-to-last. In a real-life relegation set-up, teams would do pretty much everything in their power to attempt to keep their heads above water.

[chucksabr]

I see, OK. Maybe tweaking the trading options under Game Setup/AI Options will help regulate that better.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

I've often harbored ideas about doing this kind of league, but I always run into a very simple, yet very big issue: the AI does not understand that finishing last is worse than finishing in the middle of the pack.

This matters in regards to real-life promotion/relegation because being relegated usually means a big hit to revenue. Football clubs demoted out of the Premier League, for example, lose a significant television broadcasting contract payment. (This blow has been lessened to a degree by so-called 'parachute' payments so a demoted club gets a portion of the television contract payment it used to get, but it's still a sizable reduction in revenue.)

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

This matters in regards to real-life promotion/relegation because being relegated usually means a big hit to revenue. Football clubs demoted out of the Premier League, for example, lose a significant television broadcasting contract payment. (This blow has been lessened to a degree by so-called 'parachute' payments so a demoted club gets a portion of the television contract payment it used to get, but it's still a sizable reduction in revenue.)

Which can't be replicated in OOTP, is what I assume you're saying? That's fair enough, but even if it was just a point of pride for teams, I would want them to do everything they could to at least remain where they were.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

This matters in regards to real-life promotion/relegation because being relegated usually means a big hit to revenue. Football clubs demoted out of the Premier League, for example, lose a significant television broadcasting contract payment. (This blow has been lessened to a degree by so-called 'parachute' payments so a demoted club gets a portion of the television contract payment it used to get, but it's still a sizable reduction in revenue.)

Thanks for the insight. I get what you're saying, but it's one thing to understand what will happen if you're relegated, and something else again to take whatever action late in the season to avoid relegation. That's the crux of the biscuit under discussion here.

In real life, when a team is say a month, or a few months, away from the end of the season and they're in grave danger of being relegated, what strategic measures can they reasonably take to avoid relegation, and more importantly, what measures do teams generally take as a matter of course? (The distinction here is important, because there's a difference between what a club could do in that circumstance, and what clubs actually do in practical terms.)

If the answer is, in general, nothing, then there is nothing for the AI in the OOTP game to do when a team is in danger of being relegated. If on the other hand teams in the drop zone typically take specific types of action to avoid relegation, maybe there's a way to bake that into the game as an option for 15.

What do you think?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Which can't be replicated in OOTP, is what I assume you're saying?

It's to show that for real-life teams it's not just the loss of prestige from being demoted, there's a important effect on the financial side of things.

You can mimic in a very rudimentary fashion promotion/relegation in OOTP, but to do it properly would require a lot of reworking, particularly as it relates to the financial side.


Side note: Ever wonder why the closed league model is so prevalent in the U.S. while promotion/relegation open league model is so prevalent in Europe? I came across a paper which looked for reasons as to why these different approaches were taken. And the answer seemed to boil down to geography. If anyone has access to JSTOR through their local public library, you should be able to download and read the paper for yourself.

The paper is entitled "Similar Economic Histories, Different Industrial Structures: Transatlantic Contrasts in the Evolution of Professional Sports League" and was written by Louis P. Cain and David D. Haddock. It was originally published in The Journal of Economic History, Vol. 65, No. 4 (Dec. 2005). It's worth a look if one is curious about how the different league models came to be so widespread in each region.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Side note: Ever wonder why the closed league model is so prevalent in the U.S. while promotion/relegation open league model is so prevalent in Europe? I came across a paper which looked for reasons as to why these different approaches were taken. And the answer seemed to boil down to geography. If anyone has access to JSTOR through their local public library, you should be able to download and read the paper for yourself.

The paper is entitled "Similar Economic Histories, Different Industrial Structures: Transatlantic Contrasts in the Evolution of Professional Sports League" and was written by Louis P. Cain and David D. Haddock. It was originally published in The Journal of Economic History, Vol. 65, No. 4 (Dec. 2005). It's worth a look if one is curious about how the different league models came to be so widespread in each region.

Save yourself the thirty-four bucks and get it here:

http://econ.queensu.ca/CNEH/2005/pap...k_CNEH2005.pdf

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Save yourself the thirty-four bucks and get it here:

http://econ.queensu.ca/CNEH/2005/pap...k_CNEH2005.pdf

Didn't cost me a thing to get it at the local public library. Access to JSTOR was free, downloading was free. All I had to do was log in with my library card.

[chucksabr]

And all I had to do when search the series of tubes for the title you gave, click on a link that said PDF, and wait eight seconds. Win win.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

And all I had to do when search the series of tubes for the title you gave, click on a link that said PDF, and wait eight seconds. Win win.

But first I had to find the paper.

Kidding aside, I was wondering why you mentioned a cost, unless you were just messing with me. Around these parts the public libraries offer a lot of great services, many of which are free-of-charge. Access to JSTOR is one of those. I've downloaded something like three dozen papers through it the last few months, all of which are on some aspect of pro sports.

If anyone's public library also offers JSTOR access for free, I'd recommend checking it out. Do a few searches and see what turns up.

[Rayzor]

When u move teams w.the promotion/relegation do the players go with the teams that are move or do u have to draft again

[eriqjaffe]

The players will move with the teams.