PLEASE fix the bullpen AI

[tejdog1]

So my "Manager" uses my setup man for 5 innings during a 16 inning game, fine, I have no issues with that. Faced one over the minimum, actually, and only needed 60 pitches to get thru 5.

He threw 4 pitches in facing one batter the next day. Are you kidding me? This is NOT Japan.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by tejdog1

So my "Manager" uses my setup man for 5 innings during a 16 inning game, fine, I have no issues with that. Faced one over the minimum, actually, and only needed 60 pitches to get thru 5.

He threw 4 pitches in facing one batter the next day. Are you kidding me? This is NOT Japan.

Who was less tired than him and what role? Unfortunately the AI has internal rules to follow vs human brains that wait until the specific situation. So where a human manager may have used another pitcher out of role, the AI has more rigid rules in order to prevent us from complaining that "the AI isn't using my set up guy when the game situation calls for it". Just a guess though.

Having said that I quite clearly recall a manager IRL doing something (probably not the same situation) where he asked a very tired and abused pitcher to give him one batter.

[tejdog1]

Originally Posted by RchW

Who was less tired than him and what role? Unfortunately the AI has internal rules to follow vs human brains that wait until the specific situation. So where a human manager may have used another pitcher out of role, the AI has more rigid rules in order to prevent us from complaining that "the AI isn't using my set up guy when the game situation calls for it". Just a guess though.

Having said that I quite clearly recall a manager IRL doing something (probably not the same situation) where he asked a very tired and abused pitcher to give him one batter.

I have a traditional 7 man pen.

Harvey went 7
Nunez (setup) went 2
Nao (closer) went 2
Garcia (setup) went 5
-----------
Next game:

Velasquez went 7, left up 4-1
Garcia pitched to one batter
Williams (middle relief) went 1
Yates (setup) went 1 for the save

[bwburke94]

So there were 4 guys available that didn't pitch the previous game, but the AI still went with Garcia?

And RchW, were you referring to Alfredo Aceves in the last few games of 2011? *shudders*

[oldtimey]

The reason I stopped playing this game is because of the messed-up bullpen AI. That is the only reason I would ever give OOTP another shot--if the bullpen AI/integration is fixed. Meanwhile, I am enjoying the last weekend of my The Show 13 season in which Kenley Jansen of the Dodgers has broken the single season save record (has 63; but just blew one versus Rockies). No worry for the Dodgers. They have already clinched the NL West, but Rockies needed to win to stay alive in the NL Wildcard race. I am especially enjoying seeing the AI use September callups to offset bullpen fatigue, in all situations. As it should be. I admit I am probably a little anal when it comes to the way bullpens are used in any simulation. But during my 2013 season, I have no complaints about The Show's bullpen AI. And I play CPU v CPU, with 30 team control. I only move guys around in roles during hot/cold streaks. So I know that good bullpen AI is possible, as it has been for many simulations I have played in the past. I cannot and will not play a sim with this most important aspect of Major League Baseball broken. But I guess I am only one $39.99 talking, so who cares.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by tejdog1

I have a traditional 7 man pen.

Harvey went 7
Nunez (setup) went 2
Nao (closer) went 2
Garcia (setup) went 5
-----------
Next game:

Velasquez went 7, left up 4-1
Garcia pitched to one batter
Williams (middle relief) went 1
Yates (setup) went 1 for the save

Do you have secondary roles set up?.........I think that should give the AI more leeway to use the relievers.....

Also think it is funny how you call a 7-man bullpen traditional......

It's certainly standard nowadays, but I wouldn't call it traditional.....

[injury log]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

Meanwhile, I am enjoying the last weekend of my The Show 13 season in which Kenley Jansen of the Dodgers has broken the single season save record (has 63; but just blew one versus Rockies).

Someone gets 63 saves in your very first season in The Show and that doesn't make you a bit concerned about bullpen usage in that game?

[oldtimey]

Originally Posted by injury log

Someone gets 63 saves in your very first season in The Show and that doesn't make you a bit concerned about bullpen usage in that game?

No, it does not. The Dodgers in my 2013 are the best team in the NL, with the best pitching staff. Besides a rotation that, more often than not, will give you a quality start, the entire bullpen had shutdown numbers. When you add that to a team offense with the ability to come from behind and steal a number of games (one middle reliever was double-digits in wins), Jansen just reaped the benefits of being setup very well and just got the final three outs in 63 of his 75 appearances, an ERA under 1.50. First season or not, this is a unique season that I don't expect to see again, as was the seasons of Bobby Thigpen, Randy Myer and, of course, Francisco (K-Rod) Rodriguez in real MLB. All the stars have to align because a closer cannot achieve those marks without consistency from the starters, middle (and long) relief, and setup men. On top of that, you need a year offensively that will produce wins. Without wins, there are no saves. This is the year for the Dodgers in my 2013. Can't wait to see what they do in the postseason. The stats for games and innings for relief pitchers match the real MLB for both sims (most of the games) and games watched live. If OOTP could correct this in their engine, you would have the closest thing to a perfect simulation.

[oldtimey]

Oh, and by the way, if Justin Verlander finds a way to beat the Marlins tonight, he will be the American League's 2nd 20-game winner (John Lackey of Boston, featuring the old at 'em ball, is the other). Now Verlander leads the AL in CG, with IP and K's over 200. Lackey will wind up under 200 IP and under 100 Ks with no CG. Verlander's ERA is under 3.00; Lackey's is over 4.00. The NL has a pair of 18-game winners leading (Bumgarner, SF and Haren, WAS). So, despite the outlier in the NL with the saves record, all stats align with 2013 MLB pretty well. Oh, the saves leader in the AL is Joe Nathan, TEX with 54, followed by Mo Riviera, NYY with 52. And every team seems to have at least one guy who pitches an average of less than one inning per appearance. And this is all handled by the game engine AI after settings and slider tweaks I made before Spring Training.

[VanillaGorilla]

When a game function results in an extreme outcome, the knee-jerk post declaring it a bug is a common result.

However, when the extreme outcome benefits the human player then it is the result of the human player's superior team building and expected variance.

If Chris Davis hit 74 HR in the very first year of your very first league, would that be evidence of a superior batting AI, also?

[oldtimey]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

When a game function results in an extreme outcome, the knee-jerk post declaring it a bug is a common result.

However, when the extreme outcome benefits the human player then it is the result of the human player's superior team building and expected variance.

If Chris Davis hit 74 HR in the very first year of your very first league, would that be evidence of a superior batting AI, also?

If Mr. Davis hit 74 HR in my simulation, and those trailing him had 50-60 HR and the NL Leader had something like 69 HR, and your ERA leaders were at 4.50, and your batting champs hit .420, I would say there is something wrong with my game, sliders or modifiers. Look at baseball history, including those replaying it with OOTP. How strange it must have been to those baseball fans in the 1920s when a converted pitcher started out-homering entire teams! You OOTP history players have seen homerun leaderboards like this: 1. Ruth, NYY...54 2. Baker, PHIa...9 3. Sisler, STLa...8. Looks weird, but historically accurate. We shouldn't freak out when statistical anomalies pop up, no matter what the year, AS LONG AS EVERTHING ELSE LINES UP. That is very important. I wouldn't play a game in which there was absolutely no randomness. Lance Berkman, TEX was so bad in the first half of my season, he was batting seventh. He got hot, moved into the third hole, andb helped lead Texas to the AL West title. His .220 avg was not normal in April and May was not normal, nor was his .400 avg in July and August. Seasons work like that as well. That is the beauty of baseball and the best simulations that represent it. If you get too hung up on oddities that can and will happen, you will never appreciate this beauty.
Last example. In a replay of the 1994 season I did on Tony LaRussa Baseball III, Tony Gwynn won the NL batting title by batting .402. But I thought the biggest achievement was that the AL batting champ and MVP, Frank Thomas, walked 212 times. I said then nobody has or ever will walk 200 times in a season. That's a failure by my sim in that area. Then, along comes Barry Bonds... I rest my case.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

If Mr. Davis hit 74 HR in my simulation, and those trailing him had 50-60 HR and the NL Leader had something like 69 HR, and your ERA leaders were at 4.50, and your batting champs hit .420, I would say there is something wrong with my game, sliders or modifiers.

So, by taking what you say here, your BP usage in The Show is hosed.

You mention three players breaking 50 saves (are there more?) to go along with the single greatest save total in ML history, yet say it is better and use the above to support your case. Do you know how many times 3 pitchers have saved 50 games in a single ML season? The answer is: Zero.

Originally Posted by oldtimey

I rest my case.

Using your own supporting criteria, you have demonstrated that the sim you say has superior BP AI actually has a hosed AI.

You also have made a stellar supporting case for my previous post.

[oldtimey]

What I am saying, Vanilla, is that it is okay for your sim to do something that has not ever been done in real baseball. I am a firm believer that sports sims always work the best with as little human involvement as possible. If you have a sim that you can set up and let it run, you will have the closest thing to realism, while at the same time, experience enough randomness to make it very interesting. Occurrences in your sim have as much weight as occurrences in real MLB. Your sim should be an alternative universe to the one you live in as you watch real MLB. Yes, there has not been a season where three relievers have saved 50+. But look at the historical trend as it pertains to bullpen use and the reduction to normal of offensive numbers. With pitchers getting bigger and throwing harder, that day is coming. Just my opinion.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

What I am saying, Vanilla, is that it is okay for your sim to do something that has not ever been done in real baseball. I am a firm believer that sports sims always work the best with as little human involvement as possible. If you have a sim that you can set up and let it run, you will have the closest thing to realism, while at the same time, experience enough randomness to make it very interesting. Occurrences in your sim have as much weight as occurrences in real MLB. Your sim should be an alternative universe to the one you live in as you watch real MLB. Yes, there has not been a season where three relievers have saved 50+. But look at the historical trend as it pertains to bullpen use and the reduction to normal of offensive numbers. With pitchers getting bigger and throwing harder, that day is coming. Just my opinion.

If that is all that you are saying, I would be in complete agreement with you. I agree with 100% of this post. Addressing me, here, is akin to singing to a (slightly) out of tune choir.

However, you entered the conversation by contending that The Show has superior BP AI. Yet, you have actually made points for the affirmative response contrary to this assertion.

Because Jansen is your pitcher on your team, you go to great detail about the wonderful "perfect storm" that has occurred for your most dominant and wonderfully powerful team that you have put together, and all of this is offered as evidence that The Show has a superior BP AI? Well, it does nothing to demonstrate that.

You then go on to say that if league totals are skewed and records set because of the skew that there is something wrong with your game and/or modifiers.

Well, you had three pitchers save 50 games.

That has never happened. But you think it is great that it did in your first season (because your guy saved 63).

This is evidence that your individual player usage* modifiers are off, or, more likely, the BP AI in The Show is not as great as you think that it is.

This is not evidence of superior BP AI.

[oldtimey]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

If that is all that you are saying, I would be in complete agreement with you. I agree with 100% of this post. Addressing me, here, is akin to singing to a (slightly) out of tune choir.

However, you entered the conversation by contending that The Show has superior BP AI. Yet, you have actually made points for the affirmative response contrary to this assertion.

Because Jansen is your pitcher on your team, you go to great detail about the wonderful "perfect storm" that has occurred for your most dominant and wonderfully powerful team that you have put together, and all of this is offered as evidence that The Show has a superior BP AI? Well, it does nothing to demonstrate that.

You then go on to say that if league totals are skewed and records set because of the skew that there is something wrong with your game and/or modifiers.

Well, you had three pitchers save 50 games.

That has never happened. But you think it is great that it did in your first season (because your guy saved 63).

This is evidence that your individual player usage* modifiers are off, or, more likely, the BP AI in The Show is not as great as you think that it is.

This is not evidence of superior BP AI.

Vanilla, the Dodgers in my The Show 2013 are not my team. In fact, the way I play, I have no team (though I root for the Cubs and the White Sox, as l live in Chicago). The Dodgers roster was the 2013 Opening Day roster I found in the Playstation vault. I am the GM/Owner of all 30 teams because I do not trust ANY AI with personnel moves of any kind. Never have, never will. Sims just don't get this right, and I think there are too many variables involved to make it work correctly. The only move I made for the Dodgers was to acquire Nolasco from Miami for Lilly. I witnessed a total of 9 games involving the Dodgers (3 series) out of their 161 (I still haven't played Sunday's games). This my average for all 30 teams in my league. I witness 2 series a week involving 4 teams per week during the regular season. I have been playing this way since the days of Earl Weaver Baseball on the C-64. So, I had nothing to do with the save record being broken in my league. As I have stated, it just happened and I enjoyed the rarity of it, just like I would enjoy Starlin Castro breaking Ichiro's single season hit record in 2014, if that was to happen. The Show 13's bullpen AI consistently makes baseball sense. I found that OOTP's bullpen AI does not. That's why I stopped playing OOTP. To me, that is a gamebreaker.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

Vanilla, the Dodgers in my The Show 2013 are not my team. In fact, the way I play, I have no team (though I root for the Cubs and the White Sox, as l live in Chicago). The Dodgers roster was the 2013 Opening Day roster I found in the Playstation vault. I am the GM/Owner of all 30 teams because I do not trust ANY AI with personnel moves of any kind. Never have, never will. Sims just don't get this right, and I think there are too many variables involved to make it work correctly. The only move I made for the Dodgers was to acquire Nolasco from Miami for Lilly. I witnessed a total of 9 games involving the Dodgers (3 series) out of their 161 (I still haven't played Sunday's games). This my average for all 30 teams in my league. I witness 2 series a week involving 4 teams per week during the regular season. I have been playing this way since the days of Earl Weaver Baseball on the C-64. So, I had nothing to do with the save record being broken in my league. As I have stated, it just happened and I enjoyed the rarity of it, just like I would enjoy Starlin Castro breaking Ichiro's single season hit record in 2014, if that was to happen. The Show 13's bullpen AI consistently makes baseball sense. I found that OOTP's bullpen AI does not. That's why I stopped playing OOTP. To me, that is a gamebreaker.

Just wondering, what's the fatigue system like in The Show for pitchers?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

anilla, the Dodgers in my The Show 2013 are not my team. In fact, the way I play, I have no team (though I root for the Cubs and the White Sox, as l live in Chicago). The Dodgers roster was the 2013 Opening Day roster I found in the Playstation vault. I am the GM/Owner of all 30 teams because I do not trust ANY AI with personnel moves of any kind. Never have, never will. Sims just don't get this right, and I think there are too many variables involved to make it work correctly. The only move I made for the Dodgers was to acquire Nolasco from Miami for Lilly. I witnessed a total of 9 games involving the Dodgers (3 series) out of their 161 (I still haven't played Sunday's games). This my average for all 30 teams in my league. I witness 2 series a week involving 4 teams per week during the regular season. I have been playing this way since the days of Earl Weaver Baseball on the C-64. So, I had nothing to do with the save record being broken in my league. As I have stated, it just happened and I enjoyed the rarity of it, just like I would enjoy Starlin Castro breaking Ichiro's single season hit record in 2014, if that was to happen. The Show 13's bullpen AI consistently makes baseball sense. I found that OOTP's bullpen AI does not. That's why I stopped playing OOTP. To me, that is a gamebreaker.

Can you provide some more concrete examples of what you feel is both The Show's superior bullpen ai and OOTP's inferior bullpen ai.

I do think there are some issues with OOTP's bullpen ai, but your examples don't seem to indicate any superiority in The Show.

As for the Jansen season, it'd actually be better for your argument that it's ok if that was your team. Since you indicate that you didn't influence it in any way such an extreme outlier in your first season of play actually appears more indicative of poor design than it would if you'd controlled the Dodgers.

That coupled with the fact of the other guys over 50 means that your first season in The Show produced 3 of what would be the 10 single greatest save totals in a season ever in one season.

That's a hugely unlikely outlier given MLB history, which leads me to suspect it's actually indicative of the fact that saves are accumulated far too frequently in The Show, which would be a major issue with the bullpen ai, if true.

[oldtimey]

I never used the word "superior" to compare one sim's bullpen AI to the other. What I have found that when playing OOTP, there was no ingame notification of bullpen activity. Because the cpu manager does not have to warm up a pitcher before he enters a game, a pitcher magically appears on the mound. In every sim that I have used to complete a season, the late inning drama that involves the bullpen, including who is warming up, who might be available to face that key batter and the pomp and circumstance of the entrance of the closer has been represented very well, whether the sim had graphics or was text-based. The Show 13 carries this on. When I played OOTP 13, this was missing. So I voiced this in this forum, hoping that version 14 would have this fixed. From what I have heard, it has not been fixed. That was enough for me not to buy OOTP 14. It is not about The Show being superior. It just handles the 'pen the way I am used to.
As for sim vs real, I could care less about something happening in my alternate universe not happening in the real universe of our MLB. I have always maintained my own personal MLB alternative history that has travelled from sim to sim. I have always played the games to simulate MLB, not duplicate it. I'm always saying "why can't he do that in my league!" while watching a real game. I guess you can call mine a true "fantasy league. " I'm happy with that. Pittsburgh, Oakland, Cincinnati and Cleveland will not be in the postseason in my 2013. But Arizona, Los Angeles Angels, San Francisco and the New York Yankees will be. I welcome the variance. That's baseball.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

That was enough for me not to buy OOTP 14.

Wait a second... you haven't even played OOTP14? Your comments above are about OOTP13? You do realize that the bullpen AI was entirely recoded in OOTP14?

[oldtimey]

Yes, I realize that the the bullpen has been recoded. And yet their are still complaints, as the originator of this thread expressed. And I do apologize for the apparent hijacking done here. That was not my intent.
With all the recoding, does the cpu still not have to warmup a reliever while the warmup rule is in effect? And, during a live game, does the play-by-play alert you to activity in the bullpen, for both teams, human-and cpu-controlled? Those are the issues that stopped my OOTP experience at mid-season, never to return. If those issues have been fixed, I bow humbly and I stand corrected and will purchase the game in a hearbeat, as I would love to have a sim I can take on the road and run on my laptop, which I cannot do with The Show 13 and keeping rosters in line is too much of a chore with MVP Baseball 2005, my game of choice for seasons 2006-2010. I also still have my original High Heat 2001 that I played from 2001-2005. So, give me a game that works and I usually stick with it. The only baseball sims I played only one season on were Front Page Sports: Baseball '98 (1998 season) and High Heat 2000 (2000 season). If a game works, I will play it. If it don't, I won't