I'm Sorry...developers please read

Originally Posted by Mitchum22

The game, at the moment -- compared to Action!, EHM, Strat, and even that old chestnut Faceoff Hockey -- stinks.

Have you played Action PC! Hockey v1?
And Strat v1?
And Faceoff Hockey v1?
And OOTP v1?

[Smetana]

Originally Posted by Mitchum22

How's it feel to be such a groupie?

Groupie? That's a good one. Right now, I'd rate this game about 5 stars out of ten. There are too many unresolved issues to allow me to enjoy playing it. So, no, I'm no fanboi. Just a realist who's confident the game will get to where it needs to be in time.

Perhaps I over-reacted when I responded, as it was early and I hadn't yet had my coffee. Nevertheless, I just get tired of the same old complaint threads. There's a new one every six hours, with the same content, and it's nothing we don't already know.

As I said, everybody is entitled to their opinion. But post your gripes in one of the multitude of complaint threads already open. Or better yet, click "thanks" on one of the posts that matches yours (they're mosty the same). Get your refund. This "fanboy" will stick it out.

[Max Boyer]

Everybody has the right to manifest and speak up. I'm one of those guys.
I want people on this forum to help the developers. They set the bar really high with OOTP - never forget that. And I'm waiting for them to have a stable version before starting my online league..

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Smetana

OP is entitled to his opinion. We all are entitled to our opinion.

Those of us who are heavily invested in this game (and I'm not talking about money) are bored with these qq threads.

Don't like the game and are too impatient and short-sighted to see what's down the road? Get a refund. But spare us the trite monologues. We're all quite aware of the flaws in the current software.

So you feel you wasted your $40. Next time spend your hard-earned cash on one of the other hockey management games out...oh, wait...

Like-it-or-get-out posts like this, which contribute nothing toward any actual improvements to the game, remind me of the anarchic SI forum, where there are apparently no rules of conduct.

The OP spent his money and has every right to complain in the calm, mature way that he did. I did not preorder FHM for reasons that I explained elsewhere, but I have to say I'm troubled by the many, many reports of problems.

Maybe it's a generational thing, but it don't think it's good business to just assume that perfection is not possible and that it's OK to just patch things later.

A business must always strive to produce a perfect product. Just accepting that 'well, it can't be perfect,' as I have been told by one developer of a product that some of us here know, should itself be unacceptable. A business has to strive for perfection because customer trust is hard to win back after it is lost. A business should never, never allow even the slightest perception that it is taking its customers for granted.

I have been lurking here in this part of the OOTP forum for a long time, and I don't think the FHM team is taking their customers for granted. They seem like nice guys who want to produce the best product possible.

But perceptions take on a life of their own when someone has high hopes and has spent their money, and they are hard to correct.

[BradC]

Thanks to the OP as well as everyone else who has added thoughts to this thread. We have thick skins around here, so we can handle any complaints - we understand why some people are upset.

Also, I can tell you that I talk to Jeff pretty much every day, and he's well aware of everything posted on these forums, including in the bug thread, even if he doesn't respond to everything. If a bug hasn't been fixed by now, it's because there is an issue holding it up, or it's been deemed lower priority.

I try to keep an eye on things around here too, and I'm active on Facebook and Twitter every day, responding to questions and comments and doing my best to address any issues that get brought up. I ping Jeff several times a day on IM to find out what's going on with this or that, or to clarify something.

If someone has decided to stay on the sidelines, or request a refund, we respect and understand that. All we ask is that you continue to keep an eye on the game, and hopefully it will deliver what you're looking for. If it takes a couple years to get to that point, so be it.

Finally, while I don't recall seeing this point brought up in this thread, I wanted to remind everyone that you can't compare OOTP 14 to FHM v1 - FHM had to pretty much be built from the ground up, so we couldn't simply run OOTP through some kind of translator and spit out a hockey sim on the other side. There's much functionality in OOTP that will be adapted for use in a hockey sim and added to FHM at some point.

Thanks, all!

[tcblcommish]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I agree with some of what the OP said and disagree with other things. But at least he posted substantive information in a reasonable, thoughtful and constructive way. Not just repeatedly yelling the same useless stuff, as some do.

Criticizing the game is fine, there's just a right way and a wrong way to do that. The OP did it the right way. Good for him. He deserves praise for that, not criticism.

Not sure why you quoted me on that, I didn't criticize the OP. I was saying he did it right, maybe i said it wrong

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

Not sure why you quoted me on that, I didn't criticize the OP. I was saying he did it right, maybe i said it wrong

I wasn't criticizing you. Just that your comment and the one before it seemed applicable enough to what I was saying to quote.

[traveler99]

Originally Posted by BradC

Thanks to the OP as well as everyone else who has added thoughts to this thread. We have thick skins around here, so we can handle any complaints - we understand why some people are upset.

Also, I can tell you that I talk to Jeff pretty much every day, and he's well aware of everything posted on these forums, including in the bug thread, even if he doesn't respond to everything. If a bug hasn't been fixed by now, it's because there is an issue holding it up, or it's been deemed lower priority.

I try to keep an eye on things around here too, and I'm active on Facebook and Twitter every day, responding to questions and comments and doing my best to address any issues that get brought up. I ping Jeff several times a day on IM to find out what's going on with this or that, or to clarify something.

If someone has decided to stay on the sidelines, or request a refund, we respect and understand that. All we ask is that you continue to keep an eye on the game, and hopefully it will deliver what you're looking for. If it takes a couple years to get to that point, so be it.

Finally, while I don't recall seeing this point brought up in this thread, I wanted to remind everyone that you can't compare OOTP 14 to FHM v1 - FHM had to pretty much be built from the ground up, so we couldn't simply run OOTP through some kind of translator and spit out a hockey sim on the other side. There's much functionality in OOTP that will be adapted for use in a hockey sim and added to FHM at some point.

Thanks, all!

I hear all the time people comment and say that it was built from "Ground up" with new code and etc. but still, they have same bugs (which would come from using and sharing the same code) in these forums people have posted, Gui is quite similar (and most likely taken from OOTP) so we can clarify that its not all totally new right? parts of the baseball has been used in this code, which might explain partially some of the bugs out there i guess? News articles where from OOTP someone posted just modified slightly to FHM (i don't have any experience with OOTP so cannot comment on that) but many similarities to OOTP can be seen so one could think its not built from the "ground up" so my question, can you comment more on this?

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

get a refund

I happen to agree with him 100 percent. You don't need to be so harsh on the guy for posting his impressions or concerns. The OP's points are quite logical and fair. Just because he is stating his opinon/suggestions/issues with the game doesn't mean he wants a refund.

I certainly don't want to see people dissuaded by comments such as yours. FHM should be noting peoples thoughts.

[dave1927p]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

Not sure why you quoted me on that, I didn't criticize the OP. I was saying he did it right, maybe i said it wrong

Your comment came across with a very negative tone, intended or not. Just because someone states their issues with a game in no way means they want a refund. I don't see anywhere he mentioned the big r word.

I have issues with current state of the game as well. that doesn't mean there is still fun to be had with it and that I would ever be considering a refund. The OP wants to see it get on the right track and clearly he wasn't expecting a beta on official release. Some of us knew full well what we were getting into, others did not. He stated many great reasons to be unhappy.

Smetana, I personally feel that a new thread gets more attention from the FHM team then another post in a 6 page thread. I could be wrong, maybe they do read every comment...I hope they do, but I sometimes get the impression that isn't the case.

[dejaqwho]

Originally Posted by Smetana

OP is entitled to his opinion. We all are entitled to our opinion.

Those of us who are heavily invested in this game (and I'm not talking about money) are bored with these qq threads.

Don't like the game and are too impatient and short-sighted to see what's down the road? Get a refund. But spare us the trite monologues. We're all quite aware of the flaws in the current software.

So you feel you wasted your $40. Next time spend your hard-earned cash on one of the other hockey management games out...oh, wait...

Yeah I am also sick of the fanboys and their gall to defend this piece of work. But its a forum, and so that's how it goes. At least the ones bashing the game have a point.

I don't think anyone cares what work you put into this game. The one thing you didn't do is write the developers to tell them how silly it is to waste months on historical/custom leagues and leaving most of the AI till the very last minute, building a roof before you finished the foundation, never a good idea in any endeavor. You didn't warn them about setting a drop dead date for release of the VERY FIRST version of the game.

Again, don't care what work you did, you wont get any sympathy on that point.

[Smetana]

Originally Posted by dejaqwho

Yeah I am also sick of the fanboys and their gall to defend this piece of work. But its a forum, and so that's how it goes. At least the ones bashing the game have a point.

I don't think anyone cares what work you put into this game. The one thing you didn't do is write the developers to tell them how silly it is to waste months on historical/custom leagues and leaving most of the AI till the very last minute, building a roof before you finished the foundation, never a good idea in any endeavor. You didn't warn them about setting a drop dead date for release of the VERY FIRST version of the game.

Again, don't care what work you did, you wont get any sympathy on that point.

Aren't you the presumptuous one? I played no part in the making of this game.

The palpable anger seething from posts such as yours just makes me laugh at this point. It's a game. Just a game.

My general point has always been--and this isn't directed specifically at you--that one can certainly express displeasure with the software's current state, list his reasons for such displeasure, and offer suggestions and constructive criticism. In doing so, it is not necessary to make a spectacle of one's self by creating brand new "look at me, I'm so mad" threads, and to generally act like an uncivilized tool.

[Zyllyx]

Something you guys who are dumping on the OP are not aware of is that even though he's likely to ask for a refund, he just delivered some valuable feedback on things that need to be changed.

As much as I am invested in the future of this game, I would be a lot less so if I had paid full price (I only paid the beta "special offer" price). The full price for this game connected to its "barely-beta" status is, no joke, a ripoff for everyone who isn't playing the long game like this was a promising stock on Wall Street.

It's easy to go through the list OP gave us and say, for instance, that the "protected list" is a holdover from when FHM was an old version of OOTP. It won't be there long. Or that preseason was removed from FHM because it was OOTP's preseason engine and a new hockey-based one has to be coded. Etc. But having the issues stated outright contributes to the corpus of issues that need to be addressed, and the more detailed that gets the better off we all are.

Now, I know this is the Internet and many people think that common courtesy only exists in the meatworld, but guys... come on. Stop acting like this is a bar fight with no alcohol to lubricate things.

[BradC]

Early builds of FHM actually looked like OOTP, so, yes, the interface and certain other things are shared between the games, but since the sports are very different from each other, a lot had to be rewritten from the ground up. For example, nothing in the way a baseball game plays out can be used when coding the simulation of a hockey game.

Whenever I've talked about this subject, I've tried to make that very clear. However, the UI, news articles, etc. are fairly high level things that of course can be shared between multiple sports sims. When you get down into the inner workings of the games, though, they diverge dramatically - that's what I mean when I say it was built from the ground up. The stuff you see on the surface is just a small part of the way the game operates, and it was the easiest thing to share between OOTP and FHM.

Originally Posted by traveler99

I hear all the time people comment and say that it was built from "Ground up" with new code and etc. but still, they have same bugs (which would come from using and sharing the same code) in these forums people have posted, Gui is quite similar (and most likely taken from OOTP) so we can clarify that its not all totally new right? parts of the baseball has been used in this code, which might explain partially some of the bugs out there i guess? News articles where from OOTP someone posted just modified slightly to FHM (i don't have any experience with OOTP so cannot comment on that) but many similarities to OOTP can be seen so one could think its not built from the "ground up" so my question, can you comment more on this?

[yzerwing]

Originally Posted by dejaqwho

Yeah I am also sick of the fanboys and their gall to defend this piece of work. But its a forum, and so that's how it goes. At least the ones bashing the game have a point.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your point in bold is very comical. Both sides as in most things have points, not just bashers, who praise nothing. The game for certain has flaws, and needs much work, however, it also has many good things, that not only work, but already place it ahead of EHM.

For example, the ability to change the scoring level of the leagues, something that EHM never had, or the ability to edit on the fly, which EHM was totally against, until guys like ArchibaldUK made an editor for the game.

[traveler99]

Originally Posted by BradC

Early builds of FHM actually looked like OOTP, so, yes, the interface and certain other things are shared between the games, but since the sports are very different from each other, a lot had to be rewritten from the ground up. For example, nothing in the way a baseball game plays out can be used when coding the simulation of a hockey game.

Whenever I've talked about this subject, I've tried to make that very clear. However, the UI, news articles, etc. are fairly high level things that of course can be shared between multiple sports sims. When you get down into the inner workings of the games, though, they diverge dramatically - that's what I mean when I say it was built from the ground up. The stuff you see on the surface is just a small part of the way the game operates, and it was the easiest thing to share between OOTP and FHM.

i read before (tried to search yesterday but could not find now) but i read before on this forum someone who play both OOTP and FHM see exact same bug in player related stuff and the news part is same code definitely someone said that already, GUI looks a lot same :P so i can imagine is built using same code but offcourse somethings have to alter as different rules and such BUT i don't see the "Built from ground up" though as it have lot of the same code shared even altered from OOTP, just my thoughts on this.

[dejaqwho]

Originally Posted by Smetana

Aren't you the presumptuous one? I played no part in the making of this game.

The palpable anger seething from posts such as yours just makes me laugh at this point. It's a game. Just a game.

My general point has always been--and this isn't directed specifically at you--that one can certainly express displeasure with the software's current state, list his reasons for such displeasure, and offer suggestions and constructive criticism. In doing so, it is not necessary to make a spectacle of one's self by creating brand new "look at me, I'm so mad" threads, and to generally act like an uncivilized tool.

Did you read your posts before you submitted, don`t try deflect your state of mind on to me, you have anger issues, then keep it to yourself. Seems like you didn`t even read the OPs first post, he did a good job listing what he thought was awful and some suggestions to improve it. The people who post their displeasure with this product are doing a great service for this game. How else is the developer going to realize how much they screwed up. They are the motivation, fanboys like yourself are a setback.

Not everyone is a fanboy like yourself, most people won`t sugar coat their messages, or hide behind false reality. They can leave criticism and displeasure and I for one welcome it.

[dejaqwho]

Originally Posted by yzerwing

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but your point in bold is very comical. Both sides as in most things have points, not just bashers, who praise nothing. The game for certain has flaws, and needs much work, however, it also has many good things, that not only work, but already place it ahead of EHM.

For example, the ability to change the scoring level of the leagues, something that EHM never had, or the ability to edit on the fly, which EHM was totally against, until guys like ArchibaldUK made an editor for the game.

Gee whiz, ability to change scoring levels. Thanks for the info, I am going to start up a game right now and increase the scoring level, I am going to have a blast! ....O wait the AI is utterly usless, no matter what `sprinkles`I put on this, it wont make a difference, because the core leaves a bad taste.

It does not matter what tiny little features they add. Until they fix the AI to something playable it won`t make any difference. They could tell me within 24 hours we are releasing a full 3D match engine...AI is still the same, then no thanks. Thats the problem here, they left AI till the very last, wasting time on sideshows like historical custom leagues, which have no purpose being there if AI wasn't sorted out first.

Don`t compare FHM to EHM, their AI wasn't by any means perfect, but it was very playable. EHM did the right thing, make the AI solid as can be then add the side shows latter.

[tcblcommish]

Originally Posted by dejaqwho

Gee whiz, ability to change scoring levels. Thanks for the info, I am going to start up a game right now and increase the scoring level, I am going to have a blast! ....O wait the AI is utterly usless, no matter what `sprinkles`I put on this, it wont make a difference, because the core leaves a bad taste.

It does not matter what tiny little features they add. Until they fix the AI to something playable it won`t make any difference. They could tell me within 24 hours we are releasing a full 3D match engine...AI is still the same, then no thanks. Thats the problem here, they left AI till the very last, wasting time on sideshows like historical custom leagues, which have no purpose being there if AI wasn't sorted out first.

Don`t compare FHM to EHM, their AI wasn't by any means perfect, but it was very playable. EHM did the right thing, make the AI solid as can be then add the side shows latter.

Correct me if I am wrong but EHM was built from a very buggy free to play version and was developed into what it became? I am pretty sure that is how it was because I played the free to play game and in the beginning, it was awful and buggy as hell. Then by the time SI got its money into the game was very good and built on by SI. So enough with this EHM v FHM crap. Only difference between EHM start and FHM start is that FHM charges

[Mafarfloune]

I'm okay with defending the game, showing support, confidence and hope towards the game getting better and the invested money being ultimately worth it. I'm kinda doing that too : OOTPD is a great franchise, and I've been waiting for 7 years, what's a couple more? But what some of the people here who are "bashing the bashers", so to speak, don't seem to grasp is that the game is being sold 40$ whilst being advertised not as a product full of potential showing some growing pains, but as "the deepest, most immersive, and most customizable hockey management game in the world". When a customer buys FHM after considering what it claims to be, and then realizes that the game can't actually beat out a 7 year old game in at least two of those three aspects, he has every right to be angry and make it known, and he has every right to criticize.