Stealing with 2 Strikes - Page 2

Nunyer · 09-02-2013, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Hey, cool your jets, I never accused you of lying, I just disagreed with you.

Well, I just tested it myself and hey - YOU'RE RIGHT. What an amazing turn of events! My god, I couldn't possibly have been MISTAKEN, could I? No, of course not. I obviously, blatantly accused you of lying and didn't know any better.

You know, I was intentionally gone from the boards for a week after the two threads that caused all the you-know-what to hit the fan. I'm starting to think I should have stayed gone.

lol. sorry if I came across as snippy. I'll probably get over it if you take your ball and go home... but maybe you just need to cool your jets instead.

Fyrestorm3 · 09-02-2013, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunyer

lol. sorry if I came across as snippy. I'll probably get over it if you take your ball and go home... but maybe you just need to cool your jets instead.

Apology accepted... I think. I feel like I had a valid reason for being sarcastic; I didn't appreciate being called both ignorant and slanderous in the same post just because I disagreed with you.

Anyway, since Nunyer is unfortunately right, I'd now like an explanation, too. There seems to be no difference between "Send Forced" and "Run and Hit" - what's up with that?

Nunyer · 09-02-2013, 07:12 PM

EDIT: removed more snippy-ness...

rpriske · 09-03-2013, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

There seems to be no difference between "Send Forced" and "Run and Hit" - what's up with that?

Run and Hit will send all runners. Send forced only sends those who are... well, forced.

Basically, as I said upthread, Send Forced is for when you have runners on 1st & 3rd and only want the one on 1st to run.

nyy26wc · 09-03-2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpriske

Run and Hit will send all runners. Send forced only sends those who are... well, forced.

Run and hit does not send all runners and to prove that, I just tested this. I went into one of my test leagues and started to play a game. It's the Rangers vs. Orioles. I decided to manage both teams and tried to set up a 1st and 3rd situation.

It didn't take long. The top of the 1st, I had the Orioles intentionally walk Leonys Martin. I had him steal 2nd. Safe. I had him steal 3rd. Safe. Then, to get runners on the corners, so we'd have a runner who wasn't forced, I had the Orioles intentionally walk Elvis Andrus.

Then, with Berkman at the plate, I had a run and hit. Berkman swung at a fastball and missed. Andrus was running and stole 2nd. Martin stayed at 3rd.

RchW · 09-03-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

Run and hit does not send all runners and to prove that, I just tested this. I went into one of my test leagues and started to play a game. It's the Rangers vs. Orioles. I decided to manage both teams and tried to set up a 1st and 3rd situation.

It didn't take long. The top of the 1st, I had the Orioles intentionally walk Leonys Martin. I had him steal 2nd. Safe. I had him steal 3rd. Safe. Then, to get runners on the corners, so we'd have a runner who wasn't forced, I had the Orioles intentionally walk Elvis Andrus.

Then, with Berkman at the plate, I had a run and hit. Berkman swung at a fastball and missed. Andrus was running and stole 2nd. Martin stayed at 3rd.

Thanks for confirming this. I thought this was the case but couldn't say for sure.

Edit

Logically send forced by definition must force all runners to go. Now does it work that way?

nyy26wc · 09-03-2013, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Thanks for confirming this. I thought this was the case but couldn't say for sure.

Edit

Logically send forced by definition must force all runners to go. Now does it work that way?

I'll test that and will report back on my results.

nyy26wc · 09-03-2013, 11:29 AM

I decided to create the most ideal circumstances for making "force steal" be a forced double steal with runners on 1st and 3rd. I figured if these circumstances don't force the runner on 3rd to go, then none would.

I created a test league in which I took over the 1985 Cardinals. I then cloned the 1982 Rickey Henderson and put him on the team. So, we've got 130 SB Henderson and 110 SB Vince Coleman at the top of the lineup.

Opening Day was against the Mets. I had Dwight Gooden intentionally walk Henderson to lead off the game. The plan was to have Henderson steal 2nd and 3rd, but Gary Carter made things easier by throwing the ball into CF, allowing Henderson to go to 3rd. I then had Gooden intentionally walk Coleman.

1st and 3rd, I ordered forced steal. Coleman went. Henderson stayed at 3rd.

So, if forced steal doesn't even force the all time single season SB leader, in his 130 SB season, to steal when he's not in a force situation, then we can safely say it wouldn't force anyone to do so.

rpriske · 09-03-2013, 11:32 AM

Wow. So they actually are the EXACT same thing.

nyy26wc · 09-03-2013, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpriske

Wow. So they actually are the EXACT same thing.

I think it's time to bring this to Markus's attention, at the beta testing forum, to see if this is a bug.

Questdog · 09-03-2013, 04:03 PM

For what it's worth, I don't think 'send forced' ought to initiate a double steal.....that's what the double steal button is for.....double steals should already be a forced to run situation.....'send forced' ought to be the same as the steal button, but the runner has to go regardless of whether his jump is any good or not.....

Nunyer · 09-03-2013, 05:31 PM

I agree with QD, double steal makes the most sense in game to be a "force everybody" command. But maybe the "send forced" command should be expanded: Forced 2B, Forced 3B, Forced Home. They mirror the standard steal commands, except runner goes regardless of the outcome of his "did I get a good jump?" roll. Hitter takes the pitch same as standard steal commands.

Then you've got the bases covered I think... Double steal is your 'force everybody' command. Steal / Forced would be available to any runner with an open base in front of them without impacting other runners on base. Run and Hit / Hit and Run would remain unchanged... being the "hitter doesn't have to take / hitter will deliberately try NOT to take" commands.

Fyrestorm3 · 09-03-2013, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nunyer

Then you've got the bases covered I think... Double steal is your 'force everybody' command. Steal / Forced would be available to any runner with an open base in front of them without impacting other runners on base. Run and Hit / Hit and Run would remain unchanged... being the "hitter doesn't have to take / hitter will deliberately try NOT to take" commands.

ALMOST all the bases... I would still like to see a "green light" option where the runner is free to do as he pleases, without affecting the batter's signals.

nyy26wc · 09-05-2013, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpriske

Wow. So they actually are the EXACT same thing.

I brought this to Markus's attention, via the beta testing area. He looked at the code and he confirmed, yes, they are the same thing. They are just 2 different ways of saying the same thing, for the user to pick whichever one he likes.

Nunyer · 09-05-2013, 10:08 AM

Taking any idea of expanding the options off the table for now, I think 'send forced' should be modified to force the runner to steal, regardless of jump, but keep the take sign in place for the hitter. That appears to be a logical split for the two commands.

09-02-2013, 07:12 PM	#23
Nunyer All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Baseball Ned Flanders stares into your soul... Posts: 594	EDIT: removed more snippy-ness... Last edited by Nunyer; 09-02-2013 at 07:17 PM.

09-03-2013, 11:29 AM	#28
nyy26wc All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 679	I decided to create the most ideal circumstances for making "force steal" be a forced double steal with runners on 1st and 3rd. I figured if these circumstances don't force the runner on 3rd to go, then none would. I created a test league in which I took over the 1985 Cardinals. I then cloned the 1982 Rickey Henderson and put him on the team. So, we've got 130 SB Henderson and 110 SB Vince Coleman at the top of the lineup. Opening Day was against the Mets. I had Dwight Gooden intentionally walk Henderson to lead off the game. The plan was to have Henderson steal 2nd and 3rd, but Gary Carter made things easier by throwing the ball into CF, allowing Henderson to go to 3rd. I then had Gooden intentionally walk Coleman. 1st and 3rd, I ordered forced steal. Coleman went. Henderson stayed at 3rd. So, if forced steal doesn't even force the all time single season SB leader, in his 130 SB season, to steal when he's not in a force situation, then we can safely say it wouldn't force anyone to do so.

09-03-2013, 11:32 AM	#29
rpriske Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Spencerville, ON, Canada Posts: 27,218	Wow. So they actually are the EXACT same thing.

09-03-2013, 04:03 PM	#31
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	For what it's worth, I don't think 'send forced' ought to initiate a double steal.....that's what the double steal button is for.....double steals should already be a forced to run situation.....'send forced' ought to be the same as the steal button, but the runner has to go regardless of whether his jump is any good or not.....

09-03-2013, 05:31 PM	#32
Nunyer All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Baseball Ned Flanders stares into your soul... Posts: 594	I agree with QD, double steal makes the most sense in game to be a "force everybody" command. But maybe the "send forced" command should be expanded: Forced 2B, Forced 3B, Forced Home. They mirror the standard steal commands, except runner goes regardless of the outcome of his "did I get a good jump?" roll. Hitter takes the pitch same as standard steal commands. Then you've got the bases covered I think... Double steal is your 'force everybody' command. Steal / Forced would be available to any runner with an open base in front of them without impacting other runners on base. Run and Hit / Hit and Run would remain unchanged... being the "hitter doesn't have to take / hitter will deliberately try NOT to take" commands.

09-05-2013, 10:08 AM	#35
Nunyer All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Baseball Ned Flanders stares into your soul... Posts: 594	Taking any idea of expanding the options off the table for now, I think 'send forced' should be modified to force the runner to steal, regardless of jump, but keep the take sign in place for the hitter. That appears to be a logical split for the two commands.