How would you manage this roster of All-Time greats?

[VanillaGorilla]

I put together a team of the best players that have entered the Hall of Fame from my current random debut league. There are 105 players that have been entered. What is here represents the best team of 25 based on how they performed in that OOTP league.

There are discussions about batting order and pitching rotation strategies, and we all have our own preferences. There are no right or wrong answers, here.

I took the simmed career OPS+ of each hitter and the simmed career ERA+ for each hitter and took that player's RL season that was closest to that number, but above, and post that RL year next to each player for an indication of what a typical season was for each, in the simulation.

C: Gary Carter 1974
1B: Don Mincher 1967
2B: Larry Doyle 1911
3B: Chipper Jones 2001
SS: Kevin Mitchell 1994
LF: Barry Bonds 1998
CF: Mickey Mantle 1958
RF: Hank Aaron 1971
DH/PH: Shoeless Joe Jackson 1916

SP: Toad Ramsey 1886
SP: Walter Johnson 1916
SP: Rube Waddell 1904
SP: Lefty Grove 1935
SP: Randy Johnson 1988 (MON)

Set-up: Alex Serrano 2008
Closer: Ben Tincup 1915

BP: Sandy Koufax 1955
BP: Carl Hubbell 1939
BP: Dazzy Vance 1927


Bench-

Sam Crawford (OF) 1914
Orlando Cepeda (1B) 1967
Nap Lajoie (2B) 1907
Dave Kingman (OF) 1971 *
George Brett (3B) 1986
Joe Torre (C) 1964

You can do whatever you want. If you like the DH, make a line-up with it. If you hate it, don't.

You can limit your starting line-up and/or rotation to those that are given, or you can sub in players from the bench or bull pen.

You can start players because they are favorites, or bench them because you don't like them, for whatever reason.

If you are a traditional line-up guy or a Sabermetric guy, it doesn't matter either. Just give a little indication of your thought process as to how you put together your line-up.

You can pick guys based on the years I posted that represent how they did in the simulation, or you can use RL performance based on career totals, career rate stats, peak seasons, best season, or simply personal favorites. It doesn't matter, but give a quick indication what criteria you are using.

A few notes:

Kevin Mitchell won 3 Gold Gloves as a shortstop in the simulation, so you may consider him a Gold Glove candidate when you make your line-up choices, even though he only played 25 games there IRL.

Dave Kingman had a simulated career OPS+ of 154, which is better than any single season (even a shortened season) IRL. All other players had a simulated OPS+/ERA+ below the posted year.

Randy Johnson's year posted is from his split in Montreal, not the entire season.

There are no right or wrong answers. I will post mine later today. Feel free to rip that one apart, if you like.

Again, just a short indication of how you made your decisions would be helpful. If you want to go into elongated droning detail of how you make your choices, that is cool, too.

[VanillaGorilla]

OK, maybe the interest level here is a population of 1. I saw the list of players and I wondered what I would do, and I came up with this:

DH or no DH, no matter to me. Since this league is now DH free thanks to evolution, I will go with the pitcher hitting.

I want Gary Carter on the bases as little as possible, but not so little that I bat the pitcher 8th (not with this bench).

So I started by sticking Carter there.

The offense will be plentiful, so I give more thought to handedness and speed than I would for a more mortal roster.

I like the idea of continuity to a RL line-up (in the sense that the same player bats in the same slot), so I will have a platoon of Lajoie and Doyle leading off.

I love the idea of Chipper batting second.

Since the seasonal reference for Aaron is 1971 and Bonds is 1998, I want Aaron 3rd, hitting in front of a clean-up Bonds. Mantle bats behind Bonds. He protected Maris quite well, I think having the greatest power hitting switchy ever is the best possible protection to offer.

In the 6 spot I will platoon Cepeda and Mincher to protect Mantle, which leaves Kevin Mitchell in the 7 hole.

------------------------------

The pitching staff is such that I figured why have a starting rotation? I will have an order. I will just bring guys in in turn. With 5 lefties and three righties, I don't place any RHP consecutively in the order. A guy gets tired or I need to pinch hit, just put in the next guy. If the work load is getting intense and I am going through the "pitching order" rapidly, then I stick in Tincup or Serrano to eat some innings.

I will pretty much stick with the order listed, but stagger the RHP and go:

Toad
Rube
Walter
Lefty
Randy
Sandy
Dazzy
Carl

Anyway, the pitching order concept is perhaps an idea born of lunacy, but I think I like it.

[RonP]

You've done some really great work in the past and I think the interest is far more than 1 as you put it. lol. Your stuff tends to be pretty deep and you can be brusque, yourself but there is more than a little interest, I'm sure. Also, you are a good writer.
Ron

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I put together a team of the best players that have entered the Hall of Fame from my current random debut league. There are 105 players that have been entered. What is here represents the best team of 25 based on how they performed in that OOTP league.

There are discussions about batting order and pitching rotation strategies, and we all have our own preferences. There are no right or wrong answers, here.

I took the simmed career OPS+ of each hitter and the simmed career ERA+ for each hitter and took that player's RL season that was closest to that number, but above, and post that RL year next to each player for an indication of what a typical season was for each, in the simulation.

C: Gary Carter 1974
1B: Don Mincher 1967
2B: Larry Doyle 1911
3B: Chipper Jones 2001
SS: Kevin Mitchell 1994
LF: Barry Bonds 1998
CF: Mickey Mantle 1958
RF: Hank Aaron 1971
DH/PH: Shoeless Joe Jackson 1916

SP: Toad Ramsey 1886
SP: Walter Johnson 1916
SP: Rube Waddell 1904
SP: Lefty Grove 1935
SP: Randy Johnson 1988 (MON)

Set-up: Alex Serrano 2008
Closer: Ben Tincup 1915

BP: Sandy Koufax 1955
BP: Carl Hubbell 1939
BP: Dazzy Vance 1927


Bench-

Sam Crawford (OF) 1914
Orlando Cepeda (1B) 1967
Nap Lajoie (2B) 1907
Dave Kingman (OF) 1971 *
George Brett (3B) 1986
Joe Torre (C) 1964

You can do whatever you want. If you like the DH, make a line-up with it. If you hate it, don't.

You can limit your starting line-up and/or rotation to those that are given, or you can sub in players from the bench or bull pen.

You can start players because they are favorites, or bench them because you don't like them, for whatever reason.

If you are a traditional line-up guy or a Sabermetric guy, it doesn't matter either. Just give a little indication of your thought process as to how you put together your line-up.

You can pick guys based on the years I posted that represent how they did in the simulation, or you can use RL performance based on career totals, career rate stats, peak seasons, best season, or simply personal favorites. It doesn't matter, but give a quick indication what criteria you are using.

A few notes:

Kevin Mitchell won 3 Gold Gloves as a shortstop in the simulation, so you may consider him a Gold Glove candidate when you make your line-up choices, even though he only played 25 games there IRL.

Dave Kingman had a simulated career OPS+ of 154, which is better than any single season (even a shortened season) IRL. All other players had a simulated OPS+/ERA+ below the posted year.

Randy Johnson's year posted is from his split in Montreal, not the entire season.

There are no right or wrong answers. I will post mine later today. Feel free to rip that one apart, if you like.

Again, just a short indication of how you made your decisions would be helpful. If you want to go into elongated droning detail of how you make your choices, that is cool, too.

Well, first off no way am I leaving Mitchell at SS, bleep those "Gold Gloves". Chipper Jones played SS in minors, but Lajoie had some experience there, so he is in, Mitchell can be my "10th man".

2) Carter was just starting out in 1974, so Torre gets the call behind the plate.

I like the DH, so Jackson gets to stay in at DH.

My lineup:

1) Nap Lajoie SS. He has a high batting average most years.

2) Mickey Mantle CF Almost got the leadoff spot for his OBP, but in the end it seemed to fit better putting him 2nd in my mind because of my deadball 9 and 1 pair

3) Barry Bonds LF

4) Hank Aaron RF

5) Joe Jackson DH I seem to like having high average hitters with more gap power than HR power in the 5th spot. For some reason I find them best in driving in runs.

6) Chipper Jones 3B

7) Joe Torre C

8) Don Mincher 1B. Always seemed mediocre, though he did play in 60s.

9) Larry Doyle 2B.


Bench

Dave Kingman- That early in his career he needs more seasoning, I'll send him down for a LOOGY

Sam Crawford- Love to have in my lineup, Mitchell will be on trade block

George Brett- he's on my bench? Jones goes on trade block.

Carter will be my back up catcher, Cepeda will get at least part time work at 1B, after trading Jones, Brett will be my 3B, (Jones and Mitchell go for pitching/prospects.) At least 1 of the 2 spots on the bench left by them will be filled by a Mark Belanger-type SS for late-inning defense. The other will probably be an OF . I will let Mantle DH some to save his always brittle legs, which will get Crawford some of his playing time.

My pitching staff 1-5
Lefty Grove
Walter Johnson- would be the ace but I just want to split up Grove/Waddell

Rube Waddell- his err unique personality, might be best not to be an ace. I'll have him room with a trusted coach to make sure he doesnt get loose.

Toad Ramsey

Randy Johnson- a bit inexperienced in 1988.

Bullpen

I have never heard of Tincup actually. But, I have always wondered what Hubbell would be in the bullpen. I am not big on the closer role. So, Tincup might get a few saves. Maybe Serrano too. My 2 big men in the pen will be Dazzy Vance and Carl Hubbell to pitch in the higher leverage situation whenever they come. Tincup/Serrano less so. Koufax was a bonus baby novice and will be worked in mop-up situations and whenever I can find a favorable place for him. And of course the LOOGY who replace Kingman will be a LOOGY.

Course depending on what the Jones and Mitchell trades bring in with the pitchers that could change. Randy Johnson especially could end up in the pen or minors.

After my Jones/Mitchell trades.

Brett can probably be my 6th guy in the lineup, I'd probably put him in over Jones anyway, didnt see him first off. I dont want a super team anyway. ANd given this roster I'd get much more value out of a true SS, even one who can hit worth squat on my bench, than letting Jones and Mitchell waste away (Mitchell might not get 50 ABs, for example. given what he looked like by 1994, I might put Torre at SS before him, seriously 1994 MItchell at SS* in an abomination to the role of defense).

*Now Aaron if it was 5-10 years earlier in his career I might put at his original 2B position because unlike Mitchell he didnt turn into the Goodyear blimp.

Note: I just cant have Mitchell and Bonds on the same team with their personalities. I'd probably have to either shoot one of them or myself.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by RonP

You've done some really great work in the past and I think the interest is far more than 1 as you put it. lol. Your stuff tends to be pretty deep and you can be brusque, yourself but there is more than a little interest, I'm sure. Also, you are a good writer.
Ron

That was all very nice of you to say. It deserves more than a "Thanks" click, in return.

So, sincerely, thank you very much.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Brett can probably be my 6th guy in the lineup, I'd probably put him in over Jones anyway, didnt see him first off. I dont want a super team anyway. ANd given this roster I'd get much more value out of a true SS, even one who can hit worth squat on my bench, than letting Jones and Mitchell waste away (Mitchell might not get 50 ABs, for example. given what he looked like by 1994, I might put Torre at SS before him, seriously 1994 MItchell at SS* in an abomination to the role of defense).

*Now Aaron if it was 5-10 years earlier in his career I might put at his original 2B position because unlike Mitchell he didnt turn into the Goodyear blimp.

Note: I just cant have Mitchell and Bonds on the same team with their personalities. I'd probably have to either shoot one of them or myself.

Thanks for all the detail. Part of what I am going for is to see how people think of historical players in their mind's eye, as well as how they put together line-ups.

The Mitchell/Bonds personality clash is something I had not considered, at all. That is a very cool take.

I also hadn't considered trading for the future, at all. Thanks for your thoughts, here. I found this very interesting.

[Painmantle]

My very 1st move would be to CUT Barry Bonds and replace him with just about anyone else. He will never play on a team I coach. Kevin Mitchell runs a close second to Bonds. Here is my lineup.
1) Nap Lajoie, SS
2) Joe Jackson LF
3) George Brett 3B
4) Hank Aaron RF
5) Mickey Mantle CF
6) Orlando Cepeda 1B
7) Nap Lojie 2B
8) Joe Torre C

Rotation
1) Walter Johnson
2) Lefty Grove
3) Rube Waddell
4) Randy Johnson
5) Sandy Koufax
Ramsey LH MR
Vance RH MR
Setup: RH Alex Serrano
Setup LH Carl Hubbell
Closer:Ben Tincup
I’ve never actually hear of Alex Serrano, and really can’t fine any stats on him at all but we need 10 pitchers so I guess he can stay. 

[slugga27]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

My very 1st move would be to CUT Barry Bonds and replace him with just about anyone else. He will never play on a team I coach. Kevin Mitchell runs a close second to Bonds. Here is my lineup.
1) Nap Lajoie, SS
2) Joe Jackson LF
3) George Brett 3B
4) Hank Aaron RF
5) Mickey Mantle CF
6) Orlando Cepeda 1B
7) Nap Lojie 2B
8) Joe Torre C

Rotation
1) Walter Johnson
2) Lefty Grove
3) Rube Waddell
4) Randy Johnson
5) Sandy Koufax
Ramsey LH MR
Vance RH MR
Setup: RH Alex Serrano
Setup LH Carl Hubbell
Closer:Ben Tincup
I’ve never actually hear of Alex Serrano, and really can’t fine any stats on him at all but we need 10 pitchers so I guess he can stay. 

I googled him yesterday after this thread was posted...only one major league appearance (2008). How he's listed is beyond me.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by slugga27

I googled him yesterday after this thread was posted...only one major league appearance (2008). How he's listed is beyond me.

Alex Serrano is the most overperforming player I have had in any of my Random Debut leagues. Twice he has put together HOF careers, in three leagues.

I have had a handful of other Cup-of-Coffee types enter a HOF, but no one ever as dominant as Serrano (he entered both times as the career Save leader) and none of the others ever repeated with anything close to HOF output.

I only have two RPs in the HOF, Serrano and Tincup (I actually classified Tincup as a Swingman since he had a Dennis Eckersley type of a career) so that is why they are on the roster.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Thanks for all the detail. Part of what I am going for is to see how people think of historical players in their mind's eye, as well as how they put together line-ups.

The Mitchell/Bonds personality clash is something I had not considered, at all. That is a very cool take.

I also hadn't considered trading for the future, at all. Thanks for your thoughts, here. I found this very interesting.

I have to admit, it was just too many good players, to have that many of them sit on the bench. Trading seemed the only good option.

Another idea, I thought of earlier was trading Bonds instead of Mitchell, and let Crawford/Mitchell platoon in LF (though I might put Jackson in LF, and Mitchell at DH on those days that Mitchell got the nod)

I looked up Ben Tincup earlier today on his baseball-reference, 1914-15 were his only realy ML experience with small cups of coffee in 1918 and 1928. On his BR-Bullpen page it mentioned in the minors, he was left-handed hitting OF on his days off sometimes, and was a career .271 hitter in the minors. Which could put an interesting spin on things.

ANyway, I did base my decisions on where they were at the times of the year you had mentioned. Hence, Kingman going to the minors, I probably would send 1955 Koufax to the minors, but he was a bonus baby who was required to spend his first 2 years on the major league roster, as per the rules of the time. So, he would be a mop-up/low-leverage guy. I probably could put Vance in the rotation thinking about over Randy Johnson (since I could send him down for more seasoning). (I also remember mid-90s Mitchell waddling around, which is why I wouldnt let him near SS)

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

My very 1st move would be to CUT Barry Bonds and replace him with just about anyone else. He will never play on a team I coach. Kevin Mitchell runs a close second to Bonds. Here is my lineup.

1) Nap Lajoie, SS
2) Joe Jackson LF
3) George Brett 3B
4) Hank Aaron RF
5) Mickey Mantle CF
6) Orlando Cepeda 1B
7) Nap Lojie 2B
8) Joe Torre C

Rotation
1) Walter Johnson
2) Lefty Grove
3) Rube Waddell
4) Randy Johnson
5) Sandy Koufax
Ramsey LH MR
Vance RH MR
Setup: RH Alex Serrano
Setup LH Carl Hubbell
Closer:Ben Tincup
I’ve never actually hear of Alex Serrano, and really can’t fine any stats on him at all but we need 10 pitchers so I guess he can stay. 

I do remember Serrano being a regular on non-roster invitees for various teams in the mid-2000s. I think he had a decent minor league career but not sure.

And the more I think about it, I'd have to get rid of Bonds instead of Mitchell. I think I might could deal with Mitchell some way or another. No way could I deal with Bonds. Hmm, without Bonds what would my order look like?

1) Lajoie
2) Brett
3) Mantle
4) Aaron
5) Jackson
6) Crawford/Mitchell
7) Torre/Cepeda
8) Mincher/Torre
9) Doyle

Platoon at 1B Mincher/Cepeda and LF-DH Crawford/Mitchell. Torre would bat 7th with Mincher in lineup, 8th with Cepeda. Cepeda might bat 6th over Mitchell even.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Thanks for all the detail. Part of what I am going for is to see how people think of historical players in their mind's eye, as well as how they put together line-ups.

The Mitchell/Bonds personality clash is something I had not considered, at all. That is a very cool take.

I also hadn't considered trading for the future, at all. Thanks for your thoughts, here. I found this very interesting.

Well, for lineups, my personal preference is to have OBP at the top, I like the low-OBP speedsters at the bottom (where there "run manufacturing" ability could be of more use with the weaker part of the lineup) For #3- I am still thinking OBP, so a power hitter with a dubious BA, who walks an extreme amount, (1940s player *Roy Cullenbine's last major league season
is kind of poster boy) is perfect to me there. And while many might think it wierd a guy with a high BA with a lot of doubles but few BBs and Ks I like in the 5 spot. (think to some extent Brandon Phillips, though he doesnt meet that my criteria exactly). I tend to find them more optimal in driving in runs than a guy who draws an extreme amount of walks. But, they dont have a good enough OBP to justify hitting at the very top, so they can essentially drive in the extreme walker. And my low-OBP speedster will usually bat 6th if he has power, 7th if he doesnt. Because let us be honest the 8th/9th are the dregs of the lineup (and with my usual setup especially so, as I am defensive-minded)

Note: Sorry, with you mentioning lineups, I thought it best to explain my thought process tom some extent

*Cullenbine in his last major league season (I think 1948) with Detroit. Had a .224 BA, but had a .402 OBP by leading the league in walks. He also hit 24 HRs. But his runs scored, and RBI totals were only in the 70s. If I remember he batted 5th most of the time, because he was a low-BA guy with power. To me it was the worst spot for him. He walked so much, I see him in RBI opportunities inevitably drawing walks a lot in those situations. But batting 5th, with the weaker hitters behind him, he probably got stranded a lot. So, a player with great potential for scoring runs getting wasted. (all conjecture as I wasnt there in 1940s, but stats seem to translate that way, in my opinion).

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Left-handed Badger

Well, for lineups, my personal preference is to have OBP at the top, I like the low-OBP speedsters at the bottom (where there "run manufacturing" ability could be of more use with the weaker part of the lineup) For #3- I am still thinking OBP, so a power hitter with a dubious BA, who walks an extreme amount, (1940s player *Roy Cullenbine's last major league season
is kind of poster boy) is perfect to me there. And while many might think it wierd a guy with a high BA with a lot of doubles but few BBs and Ks I like in the 5 spot. (think to some extent Brandon Phillips, though he doesnt meet that my criteria exactly). I tend to find them more optimal in driving in runs than a guy who draws an extreme amount of walks. But, they dont have a good enough OBP to justify hitting at the very top, so they can essentially drive in the extreme walker. And my low-OBP speedster will usually bat 6th if he has power, 7th if he doesnt. Because let us be honest the 8th/9th are the dregs of the lineup (and with my usual setup especially so, as I am defensive-minded)

Note: Sorry, with you mentioning lineups, I thought it best to explain my thought process tom some extent

*Cullenbine in his last major league season (I think 1948) with Detroit. Had a .224 BA, but had a .402 OBP by leading the league in walks. He also hit 24 HRs. But his runs scored, and RBI totals were only in the 70s. If I remember he batted 5th most of the time, because he was a low-BA guy with power. To me it was the worst spot for him. He walked so much, I see him in RBI opportunities inevitably drawing walks a lot in those situations. But batting 5th, with the weaker hitters behind him, he probably got stranded a lot. So, a player with great potential for scoring runs getting wasted. (all conjecture as I wasnt there in 1940s, but stats seem to translate that way, in my opinion).

The years noted were to give some context for a representative rate output for that player's career in the simulation. That Mitchell's 1994 offensive output was representative of his simmed career doesn't mean that the lumbering husky Mitchell of 1994 would be the one fielding the SS position.

Heck, any RL Mitchell fielding SS is scary to me. The Mitchell here is an example of how recalc and player development work together in the game. Recalc does not erase the abilities gained from player dev in simmed seasons. If it did, Mitchell would not have appeared at SS 560 times in 1324 career simmed games (439 LF, 330 3B). He played there when it was best for his team to do so. In his final season, he made 10 appearances at SS, after winning his 3rd Gold Glove the previous season. So, he didn't lose his acquired alternative reality ability to play there that he developed when the recalc of RL stats was applied. He

That you chose to think of him in his 1998 body and made choices based on that is perfectly fine. I also took the years into some account when thinking of the player, but thought of Mitchell as a hybrid of his real self and the virtual self that could play a solid SS.

No sorries needed for anything you wrote about the line-ups. I enjoyed reading the thought process.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

The years noted were to give some context for a representative rate output for that player's career in the simulation. That Mitchell's 1998 offensive output was representative of his simmed career doesn't mean that the lumbering husky Mitchell of 1998 would be the one fielding the SS position.

Heck, any RL Mitchell fielding SS is scary to me. The Mitchell here is an example of how recalc and player development work together in the game. Recalc does not erase the abilities gained from player dev in simmed seasons. If it did, Mitchell would not have appeared at SS 560 times in 1324 career simmed games (439 LF, 330 3B). He played there when it was best for his team to do so. In his final season, he made 10 appearances at SS, after winning his 3rd Gold Glove the previous season. So, he didn't lose his acquired alternative reality ability to play there that he developed when the recalc of RL stats was applied. He

That you chose to think of him in his 1998 body and made choices based on that is perfectly fine. I also took the years into some account when thinking of the player, but thought of Mitchell as a hybrid of his real self and the virtual self that could play a solid SS.

No sorries needed for anything you wrote about the line-ups. I enjoyed reading the thought process.

Yeah, I guess it is hard for me to get past what his body became. In an alternative reality I guess it is possible, or at least possible he could have stayed in good enough shape for 3B. Though, I guess letting your body go the way of Jabba the Hutt would be hard to put into the program. . I did look it up and Mitchell's season in the listed 1994 was a monster one with the Reds 30HRs in 95 games and 300+ ABs in the strike shortened season.

[VanillaGorilla]

Here are the career stats from Serrano. He has 170 more saves than anyone else in league history. He also leads in GP.