Why you should consider using defensive shifts more in 14

The Wolf · 07-30-2013, 09:04 AM

Pirates Prospects » Pirates? Defensive Shifts: The Hidden Secret Behind Baseball?s Best Team

soxfan34 · 07-30-2013, 11:25 AM

How do you find all these awesome articles?

Operation Shutdown · 07-30-2013, 11:50 AM

This is funny, because a couple of years back somebody did a similar article on the Brewers and their defensive shifts. I think that the defensive shifts can help, but you still need the talent on the team.

I remember when Dan Fox was writing for baseball prospectus he was starting to look into a new way to quantify defense. He was hired by the Pirates three or four years ago and didn't get to completely finish his study. I guess it either took that long for him to fully implement his system or it took that long to convince Clint Hurdle to use it.

The Wolf · 07-30-2013, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soxfan34

How do you find all these awesome articles?

All over the Internet. I found that one via Rockmelt.

Orcin · 07-30-2013, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Pirates Prospects » Pirates? Defensive Shifts: The Hidden Secret Behind Baseball?s Best Team

This article is clearly flawed. Everyone knows that the Cardinals are baseball's best team.

r0nster · 07-30-2013, 02:11 PM

care to have a rematch of the 68 and 06 world series Orcin ???? LOL

PSUColonel · 07-30-2013, 02:51 PM

I've always felt defensive shifts are something you would use with weaker infielders. A way to compensate I guess. To me, if you have a very strong defensive infield, why open up a hole that may not exist in the first place?

gosensgo101 · 07-30-2013, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I've always felt defensive shifts are something you would use with weaker infielders. A way to compensate I guess. To me, if you have a very strong defensive infield, why open up a hole that may not exist in the first place?

To better cover the areas where the ball is more likely to be hit towards.

The Game · 07-30-2013, 03:51 PM

I use shift often. My OF are all good and have 7+ arms so if something does get through I am not as worried. My IF range overall is weak.
Talking about IF does OOTP factor in turf infield for parks like 3 Rivers, Kauffman, Busch, Olympic? in my main league those are 4 parks that I use where they have turf. 3 are in the NL the league in which my team resides. With the fact that my 4 IF are avg to below avg would that matter vs grass? 3 of those 4 teams have stellar infielders.

BradC · 07-30-2013, 04:15 PM

Thanks for posting this, Wolf. I put it on our Facebook and Twitter feeds.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 07-30-2013, 04:22 PM

Spray charts for OOTP would be cool, as well as some enhancements to the PBP as far as the shift (and other defensive alignments) goes. As it stands, OOTP doesn't provide much info to help demonstrate how effective a player's decision to shift the infield has been. For example, even with the shift on against a LHB, I'll still see plays occasionally that read like routine groundouts to shortstop.

ELDoro · 07-30-2013, 04:25 PM

Shifting is awesome only when you have the sample size to prove it. Reds started shifting their defense a lot a few years ago and I'm not saying thats the reason they starting winning but it has seemed to help. Having Phillips, Rolen, and Cozart probably helped that as well.

So I think most can agree that shifting in real baseball works when you have the data to use. BUT how does shifting perform on the OOTP side? I think sometimes because OOTP is a very realistic simulation we often assume because it works in real baseball that means it should work in OOTP. Not always the case though.

PSUColonel · 07-30-2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gosensgo101

To better cover the areas where the ball is more likely to be hit towards.

A good batter who is still a "pull hitter" can still find the open space...which in the situation of a "shift" defense is essentially the entire side of the field. (depending which side we are talking about)

PSUColonel · 07-30-2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELDoro

Shifting is awesome only when you have the sample size to prove it. Reds started shifting their defense a lot a few years ago and I'm not saying thats the reason they starting winning but it has seemed to help. Having Phillips, Rolen, and Cozart probably helped that as well.

So I think most can agree that shifting in real baseball works when you have the data to use. BUT how does shifting perform on the OOTP side? I think sometimes because OOTP is a very realistic simulation we often assume because it works in real baseball that means it should work in OOTP. Not always the case though.

See post #10

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...uggestion.html

ELDoro · 07-30-2013, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

A good batter who is still a "pull hitter" can still find the open space...which in the situation of a "shift" defense is essentially the entire side of the field. (depending which side we are talking about)

There are not many of these hitters out there. There are also many that are too proud and think they are more of a threat if they don't try to adjust.

Ken Griffey Jr.'s Cincinnati days are still clear in my mind.

ryanivr · 07-30-2013, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I've always felt defensive shifts are something you would use with weaker infielders. A way to compensate I guess. To me, if you have a very strong defensive infield, why open up a hole that may not exist in the first place?

Because holes already exist. There's always going to be holes in an infield. Why play your players in the traditional positions if there's a significantly larger change that the ball will be hit to the traditional hole?

NateAndStuff · 07-30-2013, 06:40 PM

Do any of you guys use the shift regularly? I've never really put much thought into it in OOTP.

The Wolf · 07-30-2013, 06:49 PM

Time to start.

PSUColonel · 07-30-2013, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanivr

Because holes already exist. There's always going to be holes in an infield. Why play your players in the traditional positions if there's a significantly larger change that the ball will be hit to the traditional hole?

what I am saying is: good/great defenders make those holes much smaller. Therefore, I feel a shift is opening up a gaping hole, that nobody can defend.

EDIT: I have tried this a bit in game, and have been burned quite a few times.

The Game · 07-30-2013, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

what I am saying is: good/great defenders make those holes much smaller. Therefore, I feel a shift is opening up a gaping hole, that nobody can defend.

EDIT: I have tried this a bit in game, and have been burned quite a few times.

In my main league I have had success shifting vs pull hitters. Now on that team my IF defense was terrible but when most of the pull hitters kept it on the ground my SS or 2B would gobble it up. If some of the pull hitters hit it in the air it was usually a HR. I some of my older MLB league I always used IF shift vs Thome, Dunn & Bonds.

07-30-2013, 11:50 AM	#3
Operation Shutdown All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 912	This is funny, because a couple of years back somebody did a similar article on the Brewers and their defensive shifts. I think that the defensive shifts can help, but you still need the talent on the team. I remember when Dan Fox was writing for baseball prospectus he was starting to look into a new way to quantify defense. He was hired by the Pirates three or four years ago and didn't get to completely finish his study. I guess it either took that long for him to fully implement his system or it took that long to convince Clint Hurdle to use it. __________________ "And Shepherds we shall be, For thee, my Lord, for thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, Our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands. So we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti."

07-30-2013, 02:11 PM	#6
r0nster Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,081	care to have a rematch of the 68 and 06 world series Orcin ???? LOL Last edited by r0nster; 07-30-2013 at 04:17 PM. Reason: forgot to post name in whom I was responding to

07-30-2013, 03:51 PM	#9
The Game Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Inside The Game Posts: 30,937	I use shift often. My OF are all good and have 7+ arms so if something does get through I am not as worried. My IF range overall is weak. Talking about IF does OOTP factor in turf infield for parks like 3 Rivers, Kauffman, Busch, Olympic? in my main league those are 4 parks that I use where they have turf. 3 are in the NL the league in which my team resides. With the fact that my 4 IF are avg to below avg would that matter vs grass? 3 of those 4 teams have stellar infielders. __________________ Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong"

07-30-2013, 04:22 PM	#11
Cinnamon J. Scudworth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,118	Spray charts for OOTP would be cool, as well as some enhancements to the PBP as far as the shift (and other defensive alignments) goes. As it stands, OOTP doesn't provide much info to help demonstrate how effective a player's decision to shift the infield has been. For example, even with the shift on against a LHB, I'll still see plays occasionally that read like routine groundouts to shortstop. __________________ "Sometimes, this is like going to a grocery store. You’ve got a list until you get to the check-out stand. And then you start reading People magazine, and all this other [stuff] ends up in the basket." -Sandy Alderson on the MLB offseason Last edited by Cinnamon J. Scudworth; 07-30-2013 at 04:24 PM.

07-30-2013, 04:25 PM	#12
ELDoro All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Dayton, OH Posts: 535	Shifting is awesome only when you have the sample size to prove it. Reds started shifting their defense a lot a few years ago and I'm not saying thats the reason they starting winning but it has seemed to help. Having Phillips, Rolen, and Cozart probably helped that as well. So I think most can agree that shifting in real baseball works when you have the data to use. BUT how does shifting perform on the OOTP side? I think sometimes because OOTP is a very realistic simulation we often assume because it works in real baseball that means it should work in OOTP. Not always the case though. __________________ MLNB Commish: https://statsplus.net/mlnb/

07-30-2013, 11:25 AM	#2
soxfan34 Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 471	How do you find all these awesome articles?

07-30-2013, 02:51 PM	#7
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,139	I've always felt defensive shifts are something you would use with weaker infielders. A way to compensate I guess. To me, if you have a very strong defensive infield, why open up a hole that may not exist in the first place?

07-30-2013, 04:15 PM	#10
BradC All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: northern CA Posts: 1,881	Thanks for posting this, Wolf. I put it on our Facebook and Twitter feeds.

07-30-2013, 06:40 PM	#17
NateAndStuff Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 231	Do any of you guys use the shift regularly? I've never really put much thought into it in OOTP.