text error in commentary

[pisdpaul]

Originally Posted by Count_Herout

Never say "Never," Lee (it can be done!).

However, when I mentioned how over at P.I.S.D., Mr. Norman was not exactly happy, so for now I'll keep how to myself (at least here).

For everyone's information, I had to rewrite more than 95 per cent of the entries. Even if I ignore the peculiar ones edited solely because the WTBA features bouts with topless women, we're still looking at more than 90 per cent needing some correction. Some need as little as a comma or a period; others required a complete rewriting of the entry. I've already given an indication of the kinds of corrections needed. And, I'm light years ahead of what has been done for TB2013.

You'd sell more games were you to hire a professional writer. After all, the commentaries are the heart of the simulation.

I recall that discussion, but at the time we were not talking about the commentary data file, and what you suggested would not work on TBCB2013.

If you want to alter the commentary dat file then I have no problem with that. I do sugest you back up the original first tho. Also it would be helpful if you make a list of changes and report them back so that they can be integrated into the master DB.

As for the WTBA, I would welcome a text file with the changes you needed to make the bouts play nicely for women as it would improve the game if it automatically switched according to the sex of the fighters.

I have also added to my task list to look at the commentary system and see if I can editing somehow. The main issue is there is more than just text stored. I will have a look for a future release...

As you say this is the heart of the game and needs to as good as we can make it...

[Count_Herout]

Originally Posted by pisdpaul

I recall that discussion, but at the time we were not talking about the commentary data file, and what you suggested would not work on TBCB2013.

If you want to alter the commentary dat file then I have no problem with that. I do sugest you back up the original first tho. Also it would be helpful if you make a list of changes and report them back so that they can be integrated into the master DB.

As for the WTBA, I would welcome a text file with the changes you needed to make the bouts play nicely for women as it would improve the game if it automatically switched according to the sex of the fighters.

I have also added to my task list to look at the commentary system and see if I can editing somehow. The main issue is there is more than just text stored. I will have a look for a future release...

As you say this is the heart of the game and needs to as good as we can make it...

Well, obviously there was a miscommunication, because the only thing I changed was the .dat file, so that's the only thing I was talking about. Like I said at the time, I left the assembler alone (that is what can be copyrighted).

The other thing I would suggest to you is that you explore applying for a patent. I looked into the history of the original game, and as far as I can tell, Trunzo procured only a copyright. In the United States, all that protects is the presentation, not the underlying ideas. This is your Achilles heel: Even if Titlebout (card) were patented, the patents have expired, so the underlying principles of the game are in the public domain. Based on that, I could write my own computer program if I wanted and (quite legally) sell my own games. The two copyrights simply would exist side-by-side (unless, of course, I actually copied you, but that would have to be proven and would be very expensive). Neither one of us needs that.

A patent protects the idea, itself, and while you could not get a patent on the original game concept -- like I said, it's too late -- you might be able to patent some of the refinements including computerization. One legal barrier in the past has been the propensity of American courts to view computer programs as algorithms -- mathematical formulae -- and those cannot be patented (one may not patent a law of nature). However, this area of American law is developing quickly with the increasing computerization of the country. I wouldn't begin to try to front myself as an expert in this area, so you're on your own; but, it is an area you need to explore.

Re the chip, what I can see is the text and the plug-in codes, e.g., the "d2 04" terminator, plus the selectors (I assume that's what they are), e.g., "01 00 00 32". If there's more present than that, I've yet to discover it. The text can be rendered easily (and that is what's being changed); the codes and selectors are more fickle. I have a limited ability to change, e.g., the number of jab possibilities by reducing, e.g., the number of hooks, or increasing combinations by cutting down on, e.g., uppercuts.

Perhaps if I studied it more, I'd have a better handle on this. Again, the law in the United States would not allow a person to copyright the thousand ways one can say, "Zaim jabs Jensen," then rely on the copyright to stop people from using the English language. You could get a copyright on any permanent rendition of an account of the entire Zaim-Jensen fight, and you can protect a computer program, viz. the assembler.

Re the text, the chip is designed specifically for topless boxing (boxing as a sexual fantasy). It cannot substitute as a simple switchover to a simulation of an actual girlfight, e.g., Elena Reid v. Regina Halmich. This is because the sexualization has been made an integral part of the chip. It also no longer will work for men (unless you want one hell of a good laugh) -- my original effort obliged me to "paint within the lines" (or for some reason the game wouldn't work), so to gain some extra character space, I removed most of the pronoun tokens and substituted purely female pronouns as well as female kit.

Not convinced? Imagine the reaction you would get when Joe Louis pulls up his [boxing] panties!

You've indicated you're not really interested in my sexualized version, but you are enrolled at the Archives, so if the sexualization doesn't offend you (and if you promise not to sue me), I could send you a copy of the chip. There actually are several versions, and development is ongoing. Some of the old text has not been rendered (most notably the "injury" section -- there are no broken bones in sexualized boxing, so fixing that wasn't worth the effort). But, most has been rewritten, and what you would see is the underlying editing. Much of that could be applied to any form of Titlebout. Those who already have tried the chip tell me the commentary asa whole now runs much smoother and reads with far better flow, and secondary editing is much reduced.

The other things I mentioned previously are more integral to the internal structure of the game, in terms of making it more a game of movement and finesse. Titlebout in its original incarnation allowed (male) contests in the lighter weights, but in the final analysis, it is a simulation of heavyweight boxing and the usual big, dumb, slow adding machine-typewriters one sees in that division.

Women's boxing simply isn't that way. To simulate that (or to simulate a bout involving, e.g., Sugar Ray Robinson), one has to change a large number of underlying values, and that's true whether the gals fight bare-breasted or not. I looked and found my original modification of the card game, and it appears I have all but one of the old settings. These provide about 33 scoring opportunities (and therefore text entries) per round, which is more consistent with a faster contest.

Trunzo's game is Trunzo's game, and I don't make any claim to ownership of any part of it (I no more can copyright 1,000 ways to jab Jensen than you can). But, Topless Titlebout totally was my idea, and that does raise a question of compensation. Currently, we don't have 2,000 members at the Archives, and if that reflects the actual market, this part of the discussion is a waste of time; however, it's not impossible that you could wind up selling, e.g., 10,000,000 copies of this thing in China, and at $10-$20 each, it's not hard to do the math!

We need to talk!

Looking forward: You also need to ask yourself: What's coming in game development? As one of our courts once said, "Novels can live forever, but all video games are mortal."

No one plays Pac Man any more.

A recent computer mag here (I recall it was Computer Graphix) had a major article in it a couple of years ago about designing an MMA game which actually played in three dimensions. I don't know what the state of computer design is in England or Germany, but we are beginning to see some pretty powerful game computers here in the United States. These currently sell for several thousand dollars each and so are beyond the reach of many consumers; but, when was that not true in the realm of computers? Eventually, a game like Titlebout, even with the improved graphics in TB2013, will not be able to compete with games that play on these new platforms, so you need to start thinking now about how you can get to the next level.

[Cap]

If you're trying to create and market a soft-core porn boxing game, good luck with that. I can't imagine too many non-adolescents who'd be interested. Boxing is a niche sport these days and Title Bout is a niche game in a niche genre. No huge profits to be made. You'd be better off pursuing a wrestling or MMA porn game. Maybe EA Sports would be interested.

Cap

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Count_Herout

Trunzo's game is Trunzo's game, and I don't make any claim to ownership of any part of it (I no more can copyright 1,000 ways to jab Jensen than you can). But, Topless Titlebout totally was my idea, and that does raise a question of compensation. Currently, we don't have 2,000 members at the Archives, and if that reflects the actual market, this part of the discussion is a waste of time; however, it's not impossible that you could wind up selling, e.g., 10,000,000 copies of this thing in China, and at $10-$20 each, it's not hard to do the math!

We need to talk!

Looking forward: You also need to ask yourself: What's coming in game development? As one of our courts once said, "Novels can live forever, but all video games are mortal."

Paul can do what he wants, but you honestly think a game with depicts sexual situations with women's boxing is a brilliant marketing idea? Your vision of the game is not in line with the gamers who play it, and if you want to mod your own file fine. However none of the female specific text, especially that containing innuendo, will ever be incorporated into the base game.

I would also be careful with what you insinuate in your post about Topless Title Bout being your idea (true) but it is not your game to alter.

The text file is a continuing work and will remain so, as Paul mentioned it is not just a huge database of words, most of the text is driven by certain situations and every time it is altered these have to be considered carefully, which is why the re-write it taking so long.

[pisdpaul]

If all you are doing is editing the data files then there is no problem. As you point out your mods are not going to be of interest to the mainstream game. You have told me in the past that you do not give people a copy of the game but rather encourage them to purchase there own copy of TBCB and then update the commentary data files with your own.

As long as you continue in this fashion there is no issue.

[Mark42661]

Originally Posted by Count_Herout

Topless Titlebout totally was my idea.

And that's something to be proud of?

[Mark42661]

Originally Posted by Lee

Paul can do what he wants, but you honestly think a game with depicts sexual situations with women's boxing is a brilliant marketing idea? Your vision of the game is not in line with the gamers who play it, and if you want to mod your own file fine. However none of the female specific text, especially that containing innuendo, will ever be incorporated into the base game.

I would also be careful with what you insinuate in your post about Topless Title Bout being your idea (true) but it is not your game to alter.

The text file is a continuing work and will remain so, as Paul mentioned it is not just a huge database of words, most of the text is driven by certain situations and every time it is altered these have to be considered carefully, which is why the re-write it taking so long.

Wish I could thank you twice for that post Lee.

[Antonin]

I'm sitting here wondering 1] if I have missed something important about the development and evolution of TBCB, 2] what that something might be, and 3] whether I have somehow entered the Twilight Zone.

[Count_Herout]

Originally Posted by Mark42661

Wish I could thank you twice for that post Lee.

I'll try to answer all and fairly.

Topless Titlebout was designed more than 30 years ago (c. 1979). It was based on the Trunzo model, but it ante-dates everything that has been done here. It exists as a card game and never was computerized. It did incorporate the "bout log" idea. It used other ideas which might be of use generally and are independent of any presentation of sexual fantasy.

No one is being required to sign onto a sexualization of the game.

Is there a "big" market for my version of this game? Probably not, and the proof of the pudding is that it's as old as it is. Would you sit on an idea for 35 years if you seriously thought that it might be worth $200 million in sales and a profit margin of at least 50 per cent? I doubt it.

Is topless wrestling a more popular platform? Very much so. MMA? No (too brutal to generate the kind of interest needed). That market long ago was explored by DWW and the Black Sea Amazons, so I think we can be pretty certain this is correct.

Are these games played by anyone? The correct answer to that is: Apparently no one Lee knows. Might there be any generalized interest? Correct answer: I've never been to China, and just as likely, no one reading this ever has been there either. So, who can say ahead of time what you would find? We can make guesses, even predictions, but we have no knowledge.

The point made was not to say there is a large market for the proposed product -- I suspect that you're right that there isn't -- but to ask: What if there were? Or, let me ask it a different way: IGNORE the immediate purpose of what I created and think in terms of what you might learn. If "A" shows "B" quickly how to fix major problems, and if subsequently "B" enjoys remarkable success, what obligation (if any) should there be from "B" to "A"? IF Paul suddenly were enabled to make $200 million in sales, I submit that obligation should be more than a pat on the back for "gratuitous" help (and that would extend to anyone else who has made significant contributions, including Lee or those who coughed up venues or avatars).

As for what I said previously, I "insinuate" nothing. I correctly stated the law, based upon the Ninth Circuit's Gameboy decision (which was not voided by federal adoption of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act -- the DMCA):

1. Copyright protects the presentation of ideas. To protect the idea, itself, you need a patent (assuming one can be had) for some kind of "device." There is no point in arguing this (it says so right in the statute, 17 U.S.C. sec. 102). Thus:

"Four score and seven years ago, our Fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war...," &c.

-- could have been copyrighted. However, if someone else comes along and publishes:

"Eighty-seven years ago, our ancestors created a new country in this hemisphere based on Lockean principles of freedom and equality; and, the current civil war challenges that commitment..." &c.

-- that "rip-off" won't go down in history, but it also won't go down in the annals of crime (there's nothing illegal about it). Similarly, if two people independently creat a computer program to incorporate (or computerize) Trunzo's original idea, copyrights would protect each independently. That each uses the same underlying idea is irrelevant; protection there is limited to the presentation alone.

2. The DMCA creates a cause of action which, to be invoked, requires one also to plead a copyright offense. Thus (at least in the United States), there is no analogy to someone breaking into your garage and photographing framed, claimed "art work" you have there so he can publish the pictures on the internet. Even if the art work turns out to be Census posters issued by the Government, breaking and entering into a dwelling stands alone as a separate offense. Not so with the DMCA. If you don't own the art work to begin with, you cannot use DMCA to protect it. Maybe that's unfair, but that is the way the courts have construed the statute.

A similar argument is applicable to the .dat files. With all due respect, Lee, you are trying to extend the protection due the assembler into the underlying .dat file, and that just doesn't work. Yes, the assembler has to be able to select and arrange the sentences in an intelligible order, and we're all aware of what happens when there's a bug in that. But, what you are copyrighting is the assembler, not the .dat file. So, let me say it again: The assembler can be copyrighted (and should be); but, a list of three dozen ways to say, "Zaim jabs Jensen," can't be, and that's what the .dat file (or at least the .dat file I can see) boils down to.

Finally, I'll answer the general tenor of some of the remarks. A sexual fantasy is a mental image (or sequence of mental images) which makes the equipment work. All normal human beings entertain them; experiment suggests they are learned early in life through a process of associative imprinting (for anyone reading who's a psychologist).

As such, they can be extremely specific, and those appalled by anything said here do no more than confess that their fantasies are something else. Few fantasies make any sense. I dare anyone to find me a single human being who actually experiences sexual pleasure by actually having her brains beat in; and, we certainly don't encourage WTBA members to "try this at home." We also don't encourage people to jump off roofs (to experience the thrill of flying) or lash anyone with whips or chains.

These activities don't make sense either. As Archie Moore once put it in a slightly different context, "They all hurt!"

But, let me simply turn the tables on the critics: Why do you like boxing for real? Is it the danger? Is it the pain? Is it the blood? Is it the injury of seeing someone receive a concussion? Or maybe just the thrill of the hunt? Be honest with yourself: If what I've presented in some way is "perverted," what does that make you?

The WTBA was resurrected partly as political satire -- the bouts are brought to us not by OOTPD but by the Democratic National Committee (in association with Sandra Pfluck Productions, Spudwiser Vodka and Blue Agave Tequila); and, the female participants also participate in a beauty contest for the title of "Miss Superficiality." It simply is error to assume that the WTBA ever was intended to be taken seriously.

Some of you guys need to learn how to laugh.

[Mark42661]

Originally Posted by Count_Herout

Why do you like boxing for real? Is it the danger? Is it the pain? Is it the blood? Is it the injury of seeing someone receive a concussion? Or maybe just the thrill of the hunt?

None of the above.

[Count_Herout]

Originally Posted by Mark42661

None of the above.

So, what do you want to do? Dance around the roof until you tell me what it is?

There is a reason why some people want to ban boxing. I am not in that crowd, but I do understand the argument.

[Cap]

Somebody open a window or light a match.

Cap

[pisdpaul]

IMO it does not matter why you enjoy Boxing or how you play the game. I am sure we all have our own way of playing. So long as no copyrights are broken then live and let live. If Hero_count wants to create a TB add on pack that others want, so be it as long as the game is not hacked or pirated.

[RANGER11JP]

Originally Posted by Antonin

I'm sitting here wondering 1] if I have missed something important about the development and evolution of TBCB, 2] what that something might be, and 3] whether I have somehow entered the Twilight Zone.

Antonin,

I think Bear over in the Mods section has some fighters from The Twilight Zone!

JP

[Count_Herout]

Originally Posted by pisdpaul

IMO it does not matter why you enjoy Boxing or how you play the game. I am sure we all have our own way of playing. So long as no copyrights are broken then live and let live. If Hero_count wants to create a TB add on pack that others want, so be it as long as the game is not hacked or pirated.

What's the matter? No one here likes blonds? OK, instead of Regina Halmich as Miss Germany, we can call on Romy Galindez as Miss Argentina; and, if anyone insults her, I can call up her old man and have him come thrash your ass for real (Romy Galindez is the daughter of Victor Galindez.)

"Live and let live" doesn't address any of the real issues raised in this thread. We have waited almost 5 years for someone to get around to spelling "separate" with less than three "e's." I finally did it myself; now everyone's mad at me. Well, I'm sorry, Lee, but that was not a difficult assignment (I went through almost the entire text in less than three months). Nor is it an excuse to say that, partly to AVOID any charge of possible infringement, I created a commentary with 10-20 per cent usable ONLY in topless boxing (which you admit is a non-competitive market). That does not address the remaining 80 per cent. Honestly, everyone: Which has more power --

"Jensen connects with a powerful jab." (Current)

Or:

"Jensen sticks her with a jab -- just like having a light bulb busted in your face!" (Me)

???

You all may guffaw as much as you want about how there is no market for what I created (and you all COULD be right). But, I know of women all over the world -- Germany, Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Romania, the Ukraine, Iran, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, England, Sweden, Norway, Canada, the United States, Mexico, Columbia, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, Indonesia, Viet Nam, China, Taiwan, Japan -- who are showing off their bodies in nothing but their panties and their boxing gloves. If no one is interested in looking at them, who the hell are they being photographed for?

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Count_Herout

What's the matter? No one here likes blonds? OK, instead of Regina Halmich as Miss Germany, we can call on Romy Galindez as Miss Argentina; and, if anyone insults her, I can call up her old man and have him come thrash your ass for real (Romy Galindez is the daughter of Victor Galindez.)

"Live and let live" doesn't address any of the real issues raised in this thread. We have waited almost 5 years for someone to get around to spelling "separate" with less than three "e's." I finally did it myself; now everyone's mad at me. Well, I'm sorry, Lee, but that was not a difficult assignment (I went through almost the entire text in less than three months). Nor is it an excuse to say that, partly to AVOID any charge of possible infringement, I created a commentary with 10-20 per cent usable ONLY in topless boxing (which you admit is a non-competitive market). That does not address the remaining 80 per cent. Honestly, everyone: Which has more power --

"Jensen connects with a powerful jab." (Current)

Or:

"Jensen sticks her with a jab -- just like having a light bulb busted in your face!" (Me)

?

No offense taken and the DB will likely be completely customizable in the near future. Part of the issue with the example above is many in the community did not want the superfluous text on many of the punches, wanting the majority to be more to the point and text like the example above to come up less frequently, which is also something you have to set in the database.

It is more than just editing text, it is entering the parameters that affect when, where and how much text happens and that is the part that adds time.

Also, the pictures you are posting are pushing the envelope of NSFW, so please refrain from posting any more as you need to understand the environments that some people may be accessing this board from.

There is a set of topless ring card girls from another user and like your boxers this is perfectably acceptable to offer as a mod. Because his are NSFW either, instead of posting them or a link to them he asked those interested to PM him. Please do the same if interested in sharing.

[Hanson Bros]

I have never once in my entire 45 years of watching boxing heard a commentator say

"just like having a light bulb busted in your face!"

That would be the only nice thing I can say in this thread

[Count_Herout]

Originally Posted by Lee

No offense taken and the DB will likely be completely customizable in the near future. Part of the issue with the example above is many in the community did not want the superfluous text on many of the punches, wanting the majority to be more to the point and text like the example above to come up less frequently, which is also something you have to set in the database.

It is more than just editing text, it is entering the parameters that affect when, where and how much text happens and that is the part that adds time.

Also, the pictures you are posting are pushing the envelope of NSFW, so please refrain from posting any more as you need to understand the environments that some people may be accessing this board from.

There is a set of topless ring card girls from another user and like your boxers this is perfectably acceptable to offer as a mod. Because his are NSFW either, instead of posting them or a link to them he asked those interested to PM him. Please do the same if interested in sharing.

I think the real point to be made, Lee, is that we don't have to make the corrections all in one leap. I took a free hex editor I got off the web and fixed all of the spelling and punctuation errors all at once. I agree that this leaves the selection codes unredressed, and that you still will get weirdo assemblies that make no sense. But, I can edit those with a few strokes of the pen. To fix an entire bout log takes a couple of hours, and then, when I run another, I have to do much of the original work all over again. This was driving me crazy and, I assume, was a major imposition on every other player. I finally just got tired of it all.

Aside from the grammatical errors, there are standard rules for all editing. Number one is that you fire all words which do no work. That's fundamental, especially in a radio log (no one has air time for a soliloquy on the radio). Number two is that you use action verbs rather than adjectives and adverbs to describe action (this is a corollary to rule number one).

As for the other's post, I confess to half plagarizing the example, which came from a book, Boxing Shorts, a compilation of things actual (male) fighters have said about their sport. Again, you don't infringe on copyright when the complaining party doesn't own the underlying text, especially if you rewrite it to fit a customized situation.

Finally, trust me: When you do it right in pieces, you get a relatively smooth-flowing commentary which makes it a lot easier to fix the more intractible problems. "Simplify" is the heart of solving any tangled mess.

* * *

I am more aware than most of some of the screwy laws we have in this country. I apologize to anyone who got in trouble from some feminazi fanatic for looking at one of our girl's half-bared butt.