Can a pitcher get a hold without getting an out?

[Postman]

I've seen this twice now. A reliever comes in, pitches to one batter, gives up a hit, and gets yanked, but the game gives him a hold. That can't be right, can it?

[tcblcommish]

A hold (abbreviated HLD, H or HD) is awarded to a relief pitcher who meets the following three conditions:
1. Enters the game in a save situation; that is, when all of the following three conditions apply:
(a) He appears in relief (i.e., is not the starting pitcher); and
(b) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(c) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(i) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and maintains that lead for at least one inning
(ii) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck
(iii) He pitches effectively for at least three innings.
2. Records at least one out
3. Leaves the game before it has ended without his team having relinquished the lead at any point and does not record a save.
Note that since the hold is not an official Major League Baseball statistic, the definition above can vary. One noticeable difference is that while STATS, Inc. requires the pitcher to record at least one out for a hold, SportsTicker does not have this requirement. This can result in discrepancies in hold totals between different sources.[1]

If I read this correctly, I don't think that they should be given a hold

[The Wolf]

No, he cannot.

[injury log]

Did you read to the end?

"Note that since the hold is not an official Major League Baseball statistic, the definition above can vary. One noticeable difference is that while STATS, Inc. requires the pitcher to record at least one out for a hold, SportsTicker does not have this requirement."

[oman19]

Always thought everyone should get on the same page on this.

IMO though a pitcher should have to record an out.

[The Wolf]

We've had this discussion before. STATS created the concept of a hold so their definition is the more canonical one.

[Matt Arnold]

The other thing I'm often concerned about holds is when a pitcher doesn't pitch effectively. So say I'm up by 7 runs, bring in a reliever in the 6th (so save situation). He ends up pitching 1/3 of an inning and gives up 5 runs. Sure, he meets all the criteria above, but is barely deserving of a hold. That's why to me, I completely ignore that stat.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

We've had this discussion before. STATS created the concept of a hold so their definition is the more canonical one.

But since there is no official definition there is no canon. Even if Markus is striving to stay true to MLB rules and definitions he has a judgment call to make, and there's no ground-truth, right/wrong call to be made here.

[Padreman]

From the MLB site

The "Hold":
The hold is not an official statistic, but it was created as a way to credit middle relief pitchers for a job well done. Starting pitchers get wins, and closers -- the relief pitchers who come in at the end of the game -- get saves, but the guys who pitch in between the two rarely get either statistic. So what's the most important thing one of these middle relievers can do? "Hold" a lead. If a reliever comes into a game to protect a lead, gets at least one out and leaves without giving up that lead, he gets a hold. But you can't get a save and a hold at the same time.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

But since there is no official definition there is no canon. Even if Markus is striving to stay true to MLB rules and definitions he has a judgment call to make, and there's no ground-truth, right/wrong call to be made here.

We have already been through this. The STATS definition is the more canonical one.

[Padreman]

Since its not an official MLB stat they and anyone as just be quite not try to change the rule in it. They did not come up with it anyways

[Postman]

I knew it wasn't an official stat, and that's why I didn't post this in the bug reports forum.

I just don't think the OOTP definition makes sense.

Personally, I don't think a pitcher should have to pitch an entire inning to get a hold. The way the modern game is, a reliever may play an important role in holding a lead even if the guy only gets one batter out.

But I think he has to get at least one out. It's hard to argue that letting the only batter the pitcher faces reach contributes to holding a lead in any case.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Postman

It's hard to argue that letting the only batter the pitcher faces reach contributes to holding a lead in any case.

Let me try.

It is 2004 and you are the Rockies visiting San Francisco playing a day game after a night game. You, as the Rockies, scored two runs in the top of the 10th. Your RH RP pitched the 9th inning and retires Nefi Perez to start the 10th. Dezi Cruz, batting in the 8 spot rips a double to bring the tying run to the plate.

Since it is a day game following a night game, Barry Bonds emerges as the PH. You have had Jeff Fassero warming up in the pen specifically for this situation.

RH Jeffrey Hammonds is in the on-deck circle as Bonds is announced.

You bring in Fassero to face Bonds, and only Bonds....Fassero tossing frisbees to RHBs is not good for the team in the field.

You do not want to intentionally walk the tying run, Bonds, but you don't want him to score the tying run with a bomb, either. So, you tell Fassero to do what RPs simply love to be told, "Don't give him anything to hit, but try not to walk him."

In this situation Fassero's job is pitch to Bonds and allow the RHP warming up in the pen to enter the game with Rockies still holding the lead.

Fassero walks Bonds.

By pitching to Bonds and handing the ball over over to Shawn Chacon (not that that made Rockies fans breathe easier in 2004) to face Hammonds with Colorado still holding the lead, Fassero has done his job. Not getting Bonds out did not make Fassero's appearance a failed effort.

By the STATS definition, Fassero did not do his job. By the OOTP definition, he did.

Is a sacrifice fly an AB? Why not? Because that is how it is defined to be. A sacrifice fly used to be an AB. Why? Because that is how it was defined.

A hold is not officially defined. There is an argument to be made that a pitcher can, in fact, pitch effectively and not get a man out.

If Bonds hit a triple, did Fassero do his job? That is a subjective call. As noted previously, MLB has removed the "pitched effectively" qualification for a save in order to remove scoring subjectivity from the save stat.

As discussed in a previous thread, OOTP does not break down Save Opportunities vs Save Situations (two more stats that have no official definitions). By tabulating Holds as Save Opportunities, it is correct for OOTP to not require an out to be recorded in order for a pitcher to get a hold. This allows the Save% and BS% to be calculated correctly.

If OOTP did not give a pitcher a hold even when he did not record an out, then that would break the formula for Save% in OOTP which is Saves / (Save Opportunities - Holds).

Fassero is getting a Save Opportunity when he enters the game. If he does not receive a hold, then his Save % is now understated (in OOTP) because the non-credited hold would be, in essence, a blown save. That would not be accurate.

[Postman]

So, what if he intentionally walked Bonds? Do you give him a hold then?

Sorry, I'm not with you.

[VanillaGorilla]

In the situation I described, Fasserro would not be brought in for an IBB.

Let's say he was, though. Let's say while issuing the IBB he puts a ball near the plate and Bonds swings. He flies out to deep right, runner advances to third. Is that a hold?

He was brought in to give him NOTHING to hit, but he did give him something he could hit, but he recorded the out.

Is that "pitching effectively"? How hard is it to make sure the ball doesn't get within 3 feet of home plate?

Whenever an official definition for the Hold stat is given, then the game should tabulate the stat based on that definition. Since there is not one, the game is not incorrect in crediting a hold without the requirement of recording an out.

What if Cruz had fallen asleep and on the IBB the catcher picks him off second on the fourth pitch? An out was recorded, and the IBB issued. Hold? This has not been officially determined.

The important thing is that OOTP does correctly record the Save % correctly and the Blown Save % correctly, which are based on the official definition of the Save, and it uses the tabulation of Holds without the requirement of recording an out for these figures to be correct.