What Do You Do With Accused/Known PED Users in Your Game?

[OldFatGuy]

They should also keep out of the hall ANYONE who's numbers have been inflated by drugs.

Guys taking drugs to shorten the lifespan of flu virus or bacteria in order to get back to playing ball in 2 days instead of the normal 10 deserve to have their numbers adjusted accordingly.

And why stop at drugs??

If people can't see 20/20, hey, that's their lot in life. Spending money on a man made visual improvement that improves performance on the field is just wrong man.

They really need to clean up this game. I say clean it up right.

[Tekneek]

Put me in the group that isn't outraged about it. MLB can punish, or not punish, anyone involved with the use of any drugs. As long as they are only hurting themselves, I don't particularly care. I doubt they would be doing it if there wasn't some perceived reward for the risk.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

They should also keep out of the hall ANYONE who's numbers have been inflated by drugs.

Guys taking drugs to shorten the lifespan of flu virus or bacteria in order to get back to playing ball in 2 days instead of the normal 10 deserve to have their numbers adjusted accordingly.

And why stop at drugs??

If people can't see 20/20, hey, that's their lot in life. Spending money on a man made visual improvement that improves performance on the field is just wrong man.

They really need to clean up this game. I say clean it up right.

Seriously?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Listen you can make all the excuses you want and continue to apply the blindfold. How do you explain the last four(no five) seasons, exactly one player with a 50 homer season. Same number of teams, same Coors Field, Same Ballparks(just about). At this point how someone can continue to assert that steroids had no effect on hitting astounds me, I guess P.T. Barnum had it right.

Your failure to address the valid points I raised about the (highly simplistic) statistical 'analysis' is telling. I have but one rule: show me the evidence. Thus far you haven't done that in any meaningful way. You have, it seems, decided on the cause first and then only look at the evidence which appears to support you conclusion rather than carefully examining all the data and then formulate a theory which best fits that evidence.

Again I ask: how did you control for the addition of four expansion teams? How did you control for the addition of 13 new ballparks? What is the mechanism which allows PEDs to benefit hitters to such a degree but not benefit pitchers at all?

Your insistence does not make you claim true. Rigorously examined and controlled evidence does. Thus far you given us the former and not the latter.

[Le Grande Orange]

EDIT: Double post removed. I was posting from my cell phone, and the attempt to complete an edit of my post went through without the edits and as a second post. Ah, technology!

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

What is the mechanism which allows PEDs to benefit hitters to such a degree but not benefit pitchers at all?

Hitting is about generating bat speed with force. PEDs increase strength and speed.

Pitching, though certainly involving strength and muscle speed, is more about form. The mechanics of a thrown ball is much less reliant on body strength than it is form, when compared to hitting. Pedro gets velocity from freakishly long arms, not from being built like a linebacker.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Rigorously examined and controlled evidence does. Thus far you given us the former and not the latter.

Evidence constitutes more than analyzing box scores.

By your standard, there is no evidence that alcohol use impacts a player's performance.

You can't show me statistical evidence at the major league level of performance when a player is carrying 0.15 BAC vs a control group.

Since this evidence does not exist are we to say that alcohol has no impact on a player at the Major League level?

How about pitcher's warming up? Where is the evidence that shows warming up is nothing more than a myth, based on the sabermetric criteria you exclusively constitute as evidence?

There is evidence that steroids/HGH improve speed and strength.
There is evidence that alcohol diminishes motor skill performance.
There is evidence that warming up improves performance and reduces certain injury types.

But since there are no controlled studies that can be specifically generated for alcohol, warming-up, or PEDs for MLB, are we to believe that alcohol, warming up, and PEDs have no effect on MLB players?

[Gil Thorp]

Here's a brief article with some numbers Proof That the Steroid-Era Power Surge in Major League Baseball Has Been Stopped | Bleacher Report

[MrSmooth]

All I will say is players wouldn't use PEDs if they didn't help them. That's the most proof you will need.

[PhillieFever]

OK, here's the best I could do in the time I have. Between 1998 and 2012 there were 14 new ballparks introduced(including Washington) compared to the parks still in use today, the old parks had a .96857 park effect value(per Seamheads). The new parks introduced have a combined park effect of .9764. So all in all there's a net difference of less than one percent. Between 98-12 there was no expansion so that as well is negated. Now here's the numbers:

Between 1998 and 2007 Home Runs were hit at a pace of 1 per every 31.596 at bats. Slugging percentage for the period was .4259

Between 2008 and 2012 home runs were hit at a pace of 1 per every 34.509 at bats. Slugging percentage for the period was .4082


What does this all mean? That an average season between 1998 and 2007 would see 5282 homers hit and a slugging percentage of .426
Since then however we've seen an average of 4803 homers hit and a slugging percentage of .408

Make your own conclusions.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by MrSmooth

All I will say is players wouldn't use PEDs if they didn't help them. That's the most proof you will need.

A significant number of PED users used them to recover from injuries. I'm not excusing it but it is a reality.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Listen you can make all the excuses you want and continue to apply the blindfold. How do you explain the last four(no five) seasons, exactly one player with a 50 homer season. Same number of teams, same Coors Field, Same Ballparks(just about). At this point how someone can continue to assert that steroids had no effect on hitting astounds me, I guess P.T. Barnum had it right.

The ball was juiced during part of the steroid era.

If you're gonna add sayings then I'll add, "none so blind as those who will not see".

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

Here's a brief article with some numbers Proof That the Steroid-Era Power Surge in Major League Baseball Has Been Stopped | Bleacher Report

That ISO chart is seriously damning. Thanks for the link.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by RchW

A significant number of PED users used them to recover from injuries. I'm not excusing it but it is a reality.

That's more of an HGH benefit that a steroid benefit, steroids actually weaken ligaments and tendons causing more injury over time, just look at A-Rod his body is practically falling apart. HGH however I believe has been shown not to improve performance as much as steroids do.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Hitting is about generating bat speed with force. PEDs increase strength and speed.

Pitching, though certainly involving strength and muscle speed, is more about form. The mechanics of a thrown ball is much less reliant on body strength than it is form, when compared to hitting. Pedro gets velocity from freakishly long arms, not from being built like a linebacker.

So no meaningful increase on speed in a fastball?

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Evidence constitutes more than analyzing box scores.

Indeed it does. But I'm not the one who's been thus far only mining box scores for data purportedly showing the significant influence of PEDs. Rather, I've been asking for how such (seemingly unsophisticated) data mining proves unequivocally the claim being made. You should be making your point above to PhillieFever.

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

By your standard, there is no evidence that alcohol use impacts a player's performance.

See prior reply.

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

There is evidence that steroids/HGH improve speed and strength.

The bigger question is this: do they provide a level of speed and strength that would otherwise be unobtainable through normal performance enhancing practices?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

Here's a brief article with some numbers Proof That the Steroid-Era Power Surge in Major League Baseball Has Been Stopped | Bleacher Report

That's a good article. However, the same caveat applies: where in that article does it explain where all the other potential influences were controlled for? Controlling for other influences is very important in terms of a statistical analysis attempting to isolate the root cause of something, or the level of importance a given cause might have. (Maybe we should ask those Freakonomics guys to tackle the subject. )

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by RchW

The ball was juiced during part of the steroid era.

If you're gonna add sayings then I'll add, "none so blind as those who will not see".

The Juiced Ball has been debunked as a conspiracy theory.

Juiced ball theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That's a good article. However, the same caveat applies: where in that article does it explain where all the other potential influences were controlled for? Controlling for other influences is very important in terms of a statistical analysis attempting to isolate the root cause of something, or the level of importance a given cause might have. (Maybe we should ask those Freakonomics guys to tackle the subject. )

Yes, but there's this thing in both science and the civil courts called "preponderance of evidence."

You can obfuscate this all you want, but as near as I can tell the jury's already come in on this issue.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So no meaningful increase on speed in a fastball?

Depends on what is defined as "meaningful." Are you now saying that PEDs DO enhance performance, but equally for pitchers and hitters?

If that is the case, refer to my post you quote above.

Increasing bat speed not only allows for greater force on impact which makes the ball go farther, it more importantly allows the batter to start his swing a tick later. Give a MLB hitter a tenth of a second longer to make his hitting decision and it is like taking (approximately) 30 mph off the pitcher's fastball.

Steroids help pitchers recover and pitch more frequently at top level, but they haven't made anyone toss a pill at 120 mph. Advantage hitters.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Indeed it does. But I'm not the one who's been thus far only mining box scores for data purportedly showing the significant influence of PEDs. Rather, I've been asking for how such (seemingly unsophisticated) data mining proves unequivocally the claim being made.

Your claim that there is no evidence of Performance Enhancing Drugs enhancing performance does show that you are only looking for box score based evidence. While I agree that slip shod stat data mining is not evidence worthy of making a conclusion of any merit, ignoring basic knowledge of physiology and kinesiology while insisting on box score derived data to reach a conclusion is willful blindness.

There are no studies that show alcohol intoxication or extreme sleep deprivation affect MLB player performance. I ask you if you believe that MLB players are immune from these effects simply because no controlled studies have demonstrated that baseball players, like everyone else in the population, are similarly affected.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange;3515905The bigger question is this:[I

do they provide a level of speed and strength that would otherwise be unobtainable through normal performance enhancing practices?[/I]

The answer is clearly "yes."

[VanillaGorilla]

Dang...I double posted and was not using a cell phone! I'll blame PRISM.

[boshk]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

.... same Coors Field,....

the field may be the same, but how long before they started sticking the balls in the humidor to unjuice them?