High Velocity, But No Fastball

[trendon]

What do you experts make of pitchers that have a high velocity but no listed fastball? I am currently staring at a fictional player who throws in upwards of 101mph but has an interesting assortment of pitches to his credit (in order of skill): splitter, cutter, knuckle curve, slider, changeup, curveball.

1. Does everyone have a fastball by default, even if it is not listed?
2. I understand that this guy isn't going to throw a 100mph splitter, but can I assume that his breaking pitches are harder than others?

This is in an online league so I can't play a game with him to see for myself and I probably will create a league and create a guy just like this so I can see for myself but I figured I'd ask first.

Thanks in advance.

[olivertheorem]

The cutter ("cut fastball") is a kind of fastball. I think technically the splitter is as well ("split-fingered fastball"). So he's got two fastballs, just not a 4-seam or 2-seam one.

[trendon]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

The cutter ("cut fastball") is a kind of fastball. I think technically the splitter is as well ("split-fingered fastball"). So he's got two fastballs, just not a 4-seam or 2-seam one.

Or that!

Thanks!

[The Wolf]

See Different Baseball Pitches

[Cryomaniac]

The velocity is what he would throw if he threw a 4 seamer and other pitches are scaled to that IIRC. So a guy with a 100mph velocity and a splitter will throw it harder than a guy with a 95mph velocity and a splitter.

[BIG17EASY]

I'm probably going to get crushed for this, but I've always found it highly unrealistic when I come across a pitcher in OOTP who doesn't have a traditional (2-seam or 4-seam) fastball. Yes, a cutter is a fastball, but even Mariano Rivera, who throws cutters almost exclusively, can throw a 4-seam fastball on a rare occasion. According to PitchFx, he's thrown 272 cutters and 17 fastballs this season. (Link here)

In the instance of your pitcher, I'd probably edit him to get rid of one of the curveballs (very few pitchers, maybe none, in real life throw a knuckle curve and a regular curve) and give him a poorly rated 2-seamer or 4-seamer as his sixth pitch.

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The velocity is what he would throw if he threw a 4 seamer and other pitches are scaled to that IIRC. So a guy with a 100mph velocity and a splitter will throw it harder than a guy with a 95mph velocity and a splitter.

100 is faster than 95?

so Einstein was correct?

E=mc2


BRILLIANT!

[Questdog]

I would expect the Rivera info to just a case of bad data.....pitch recognition is not an exact science.....they were probably intended as cutters and did not show the movement of his usual offering.....

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I would expect the Rivera info to just a case of bad data.....pitch recognition is not an exact science.....they were probably intended as cutters and did not show the movement of his usual offering.....

That certainly could be true. But a cutter that doesn't cut is in effect a 4-seam fastball. And there are enough of them charted throughout his last seven seasons on Pitch Fx that I doubt their people are wrong nearly 30 percent of the time. If they are, they need people with better baseball IQ.

My point was that a 4-seam fastball is the most basic pitch in the game, so while it may not be a main pitch for some guys, they all know how to throw it. It's as simple as, put your fingers across the horseshoe and just throw it. No manipulation of wrist turn, finger pressure, etc. is needed. And a 2-seam is just a different grip placement and maybe a little bit of finger pressure to get some arm-side run while letting natural arm angle and release point do most of the work.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

My point was that a 4-seam fastball is the most basic pitch in the game, so while it may not be a main pitch for some guys, they all know how to throw it. It's as simple as, put your fingers across the horseshoe and just throw it. No manipulation of wrist turn, finger pressure, etc. is needed. And a 2-seam is just a different grip placement and maybe a little bit of finger pressure to get some arm-side run while letting natural arm angle and release point do most of the work.

Pretty much. Hell, even I can throw a 4-seamer, a 2-seamer and a changeup. Admittedly at probably less than 50mph with next to no movement, but still... (I tried to teach myself a slider once, but my elbow started hurting after about 5 attempts, and I could barely get the thing to go 45 feet - which is how far I was throwing - so I gave up lol)

[The Wolf]

Baseball Pitching Grips - Pictures Of How To Grip 8 More Baseball Pitches

[The Wolf]

Don't mind me, I've just been trying to provide some useful imagery and reference material for this discussion.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

I think the idea is not that they don't know how to throw a 4-seam or 2-seam fastball, but that they basically never use one during a game. Even so, I wouldn't be surprised if OOTP generated an unrealisticly high number of pitchers who don't "have" a "normal" fastball.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

That certainly could be true. But a cutter that doesn't cut is in effect a 4-seam fastball. And there are enough of them charted throughout his last seven seasons on Pitch Fx that I doubt their people are wrong nearly 30 percent of the time. If they are, they need people with better baseball IQ.

My point was that a 4-seam fastball is the most basic pitch in the game, so while it may not be a main pitch for some guys, they all know how to throw it. It's as simple as, put your fingers across the horseshoe and just throw it. No manipulation of wrist turn, finger pressure, etc. is needed. And a 2-seam is just a different grip placement and maybe a little bit of finger pressure to get some arm-side run while letting natural arm angle and release point do most of the work.

A cutter is more akin to a 2-seamer than a 4-seamer.......and yes, anyone can throw a 4-seamer, but that is not the point...anyone can throw a knuckler, too (tell me that you never have)....but that doesn't mean the pitch is in your repertoire......an effective 4-seamer requires plus velocity; my 65 MPH 4-seamer is not a fearsome weapon in my arsenal.....

I would agree, however, that any pitcher hitting 100 MPH on the radar gun, is doing himself an injustice if he doesn't throw a high fastball every once in a while........

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Questdog

A cutter is more akin to a 2-seamer than a 4-seamer.......and yes, anyone can throw a 4-seamer, but that is not the point...anyone can throw a knuckler, too (tell me that you never have)....but that doesn't mean the pitch is in your repertoire......an effective 4-seamer requires plus velocity; my 65 MPH 4-seamer is not a fearsome weapon in my arsenal.....

I would agree, however, that any pitcher hitting 100 MPH on the radar gun, is doing himself an injustice if he doesn't throw a high fastball every once in a while........

A cutter is the opposite of a 2-seamer, that's why it's so effective. A hitter sees the pitch and can't tell if it's going to run in on him, stay straight (as a 4-seam FB would) or run away from him.

But, we're splitting hairs here. And no, I can't throw a knuckleball. Tried many times, but never even came close to throwing it well enough to even consider throwing it in the bullpen, let alone in a game.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

My point was that a 4-seam fastball is the most basic pitch in the game, so while it may not be a main pitch for some guys, they all know how to throw it. It's as simple as, put your fingers across the horseshoe and just throw it. No manipulation of wrist turn, finger pressure, etc. is needed. And a 2-seam is just a different grip placement and maybe a little bit of finger pressure to get some arm-side run while letting natural arm angle and release point do most of the work.

Yes to all of the above. I would only add that a 2-seamer becomes a sinker with the right pressure in the right spots. I also found it was a much easier to vary the speeds of my 2-seamer compared the 4-seam. My 4-seam was a "show me" pitch. Pitchers like myself who relied on movement and pitching to contact to induce grounders and pop ups tend to stray away from 4-seamers.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I would agree, however, that any pitcher hitting 100 MPH on the radar gun, is doing himself an injustice if he doesn't throw a high fastball every once in a while........

How I'd rationalise that in my head is that the guy always threw a splitter because he could never learn to control a 4-seamer or something like that.