Either fix 'Minor League Manager' mode or pull the plug on it.

[One Post Wonder]

Just got my copy of OOTP14 today, and started a league with all default settings and unemployed. That path, of course, led me to become a minor league manager in Rookie ball, and I instantly ran into one of the problems that had made this feature unplayable in earlier versions, with the organization taking players off my roster, giving them back to me the next day, then taking them back off the day after that. We're still in pre-season, mind, so there's no legitimate reason for the AI to be doing this.

I'll take the hint and go back to playing as a major league GM for OOTP14, because I can't sit through a season of that.

This minor league manager thing has been part of the OOTP franchise for at least 5-6 years now, and it has never worked properly. The way the AI runs franchises is simply not compatible with this mode without some kind of adjustment. So please, could you either:

a) Have the AI do callups/send-downs less often on a player-run minor league team.

or b) make a hard and fast rule that when a player has been moved to or taken out of a Rookie-AA level minor league roster by the AI, that he cannot be sent back for at least a month.

or preferably, c) allow the human player to tell the organization when a guy is ready, should be sent down, or released, and the organization will then make the move and send you a replacement. The player will then be evaluated partly on how many guys he sends up and how well they do instead of merely wins and losses, which in the lower minor leagues is closer to how real managers are rated.

If this fix can't be made for whatever reason, then IMO the entire feature should be removed. Having something in the game for 5 or 6 different releases, with it not working in any of them, can't possibly help sell more copies or make the franchise look good. Especially since the minor league manager path can easily be someone's first impression of the game.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Have the AI do callups/send-downs less often on a player-run minor league team.

Do you have any firm evidence which shows OOTP's rate of minor league player movement is unrealistic? There is certainly that supposition but no one to date has put any firm numbers to it by comparing real life to OOTP.

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

make a hard and fast rule that when a player has been moved to or taken out of a Rookie-AA level minor league roster by the AI, that he cannot be sent back for at least a month.

Why? There is no such limitation in real life. (This ties back in to the point above: what is the rate of real-life player movement as compared to OOTP. Until we have some good data we are just guessing.)

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Do you have any firm evidence which shows OOTP's rate of minor league player movement is unrealistic? There is certainly that supposition but no one to date has put any firm numbers to it by comparing real life to OOTP.

Why? There is no such limitation in real life. (This ties back in to the point above: what is the rate of real-life player movement as compared to OOTP. Until we have some good data we are just guessing.)

Are there good transaction records for promotions / demotions though?

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Why? There is no such limitation in real life. (This ties back in to the point above: what is the rate of real-life player movement as compared to OOTP. Until we have some good data we are just guessing.)

I assume you read the same books as I do and look at your share of minor league stats. I don't see players putting up minor league stats that are anywhere near as choppy as some of the lines I see in OOTP. I see most prospects putting in at least 200 ab at each stop. No, that's not what you asked for, but I think we can make some reasonable assumptions based on that.

Stats aside, just using common sense, do you think that in real life, several players could be moved from Rookie level, to A, back to rookie level, and back to A all within the span of a week? Routinely? With no injury or performance factors as a cause?

Also, in real life I would have to assume, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, that the manager at A ball would have at least some input into whether a guy on his team should be promoted or released or not, even if the GM has the final say. I'd actually have thought that this would be a significant part of his job.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Are there good transaction records for promotions / demotions though?

Yes. The official web site for minor league baseball (MILB.com) has complete transaction records going back to 2009, and I think at least part of the 2008 season. It includes signings, releases, promotions, demotions, disabled list moves, and temporarily inactive stints. The downside is that the data is housed separately for each league, the format of the records is not necessarily the easiest to gather and work with, and there are a few incomplete or missing transactions. But overall it's quite comprehensive and would certainly serve as a definitive reference as to how major league organizations handle their minor league systems in terms of player movement (well, from 2009 to today at any rate).

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I assume you read the same books as I do and look at your share of minor league stats. I don't see players putting up minor league stats that are anywhere near as choppy as some of the lines I see in OOTP.

Stats are a separate matter from player movement within an organization.

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Stats aside, just using common sense, do you think that in real life, several players could be moved from Rookie level, to A, back to rookie level, and back to A all within the span of a week?

I don't care about common sense, I care what the data says. So-called 'common sense' can often be wrong. There is a wealth of data available to definitely answer the question of how much player movement there is within a major league club's minor league organization. So rather than assume or guess let's use real-world data and see what it reveals. (The results may hold some surprises.)

[Painmantle]

Ah..One Post Wonder is back...bringing all of his negativity with him.. What is this your 3rd? 4th go around? 41 post now, and not a single one has anything good to say about OOTP...I'm just trying to figure out why on earth you keep spending money with a company that continues to disappoint you so terribly?

[Max Boyer]

I think he likes the game so much that he's still hoping for a fix to his problem.
It must be really hard to play in the MiLB as a manager with everything that's happening in OOTP & real-life.

Question: do you end-up missing players for your games?

[mgoetze]

Well, I would agree that this aspect of the game could be improved. I've certainly be frustrated when the GM absolutely refused to give me anyone capable of playing CF (and I was playing a Single A team, so there were two levels below). Some input towards the GM as to which players you would suggest demoting and where you could use help could go a long away.

[elfsutton]

As to his question as to what input a minor league manager has on what players should be promoted/demoted, yeah a minors manager might get some input but he is just there to run the team, not make roster move decisions, Just watch the movies dude.

It works fine for me every time I have ever played it. Yeah, my roster took a beating that low, everyday it was a new move or three or so, but that comes with the territory, especially for low ball managers

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

Ah..One Post Wonder is back...bringing all of his negativity with him.. What is this your 3rd? 4th go around? 41 post now, and not a single one has anything good to say about OOTP...I'm just trying to figure out why on earth you keep spending money with a company that continues to disappoint you so terribly?

Wow, I show up here about once or twice a year... I've got a grand total of 41 posts since something like 2007, and yet I've somehow made such an impression on some of you? I don't even remember half of my posts, it's that much time between them, so I'm actually a little flattered.

I'll be honest, dude, you've got over 1,300 posts and I have no idea who the f*ck you are. Your name rings no bells whatsoever. Perhaps you should try posting something insightful instead of making personal attacks, and then maybe some of your posts would be a bit more memorable.

I know! Let's start here. Do you have anything useful to add to the discussion of Minor League Managing? Negative, positive... or something just plain useful?

* And just so we don't get off track, I made a post about how something works (or doesn't) and gave some alternate suggestions. I'm seriously not here to pick a fight. If you guys all play with the minor league managing system as is, and you think it works perfectly, then tell me so. If not, then let's discuss it like adults.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

And just so we don't get off track, I made a post about how something works (or doesn't) and gave some alternate suggestions.

There are others who have voiced similar concerns with the way players are handled within an organization. There may well be an issue. The trouble is that no one has supplied any real-world data against which we can compare what happens in OOTP. Without such real-world reference data we are essentially guessing what should happen. I think it better when there's hard data as that provides a very firm foundation.

(Gathering the minor league transaction data is on my to do list, but I don't know when I'll be able to get to it. It'll take some time to grab the several seasons of data that are available, and quite a bit of time after that to clean up and organize it.)

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Max Boyer

I think he likes the game so much that he's still hoping for a fix to his problem.
It must be really hard to play in the MiLB as a manager with everything that's happening in OOTP & real-life.

Question: do you end-up missing players for your games?

I had players for my games in the few that I played, though they might not be the players I intended to put out there the day before. It definitely adds a lot of unnecessary maintenance, don't you think?

I haven't played this version enough to make a definite statement, but I remember in previous versions I would have trouble having enough healthy starting pitchers, or I'd have to play guys out of position and things like that. If the AI minor league roster management is unchanged, I'd guess that would still be a problem, too.

So that I'm not misrepresented - minor league management isn't something I use much or, I think, have even mentioned before. But I don't think there's much real argument that it doesn't work well and hasn't worked well for a number of years. It should get more attention, seeing that it's easy for a new player to end up there.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

or preferably, c) allow the human player to tell the organization when a guy is ready, should be sent down, or released, and the organization will then make the move and send you a replacement. The player will then be evaluated partly on how many guys he sends up and how well they do instead of merely wins and losses, which in the lower minor leagues is closer to how real managers are rated.

Realistic or not, this would be a really interesting way to play, in my opinion.

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Without such real-world reference data we are essentially guessing what should happen. I think it better when there's hard data as that provides a very firm foundation.

That's fair. And while I'm reasonably sure my statements would be borne out when it comes to real prospects, perhaps organizational fodder gets called up and down more than I think it does. I know I move my own fodder around from AAA to A and back again, though not with anywhere near the frequency that the AI does.

The thing with this too... minor league manager mode in OOTP is almost a separate game from being a major league GM. I wouldn't want whatever adjustments that may get made here to weaken the AI in the major league GM part of things. That's why I was focusing on suggestions that treat a player-run minor league team a little differently, even though it isn't entirely realistic.

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Wow, I show up here about once or twice a year... I've got a grand total of 41 posts since something like 2007, and yet I've somehow made such an impression on some of you? I don't even remember half of my posts, it's that much time between them, so I'm actually a little flattered.

I'll be honest, dude, you've got over 1,300 posts and I have no idea who the f*ck you are. Your name rings no bells whatsoever. Perhaps you should try posting something insightful instead of making personal attacks, and then maybe some of your posts would be a bit more memorable.

I know! Let's start here. Do you have anything useful to add to the discussion of Minor League Managing? Negative, positive... or something just plain useful?

* And just so we don't get off track, I made a post about how something works (or doesn't) and gave some alternate suggestions. I'm seriously not here to pick a fight. If you guys all play with the minor league managing system as is, and you think it works perfectly, then tell me so. If not, then let's discuss it like adults.

Well you obviously have taken my post as a personal attack when it wasn't intended to be one. It was an observation and then a comment with a question. I apologize for offending you with my very good memory.

So, I'm going to start a game with a minor league team, for the sole purpose of being able to put some useful input into this particular topic. Have a nice night and I'll be back with "something useful"

[Painmantle]

Ok so a few quick questions.

I'm guessing you did a "New major League" from the start screen. If this isn't the case, then ignore this input and let me know that's not the case.

First thing I noticed is it is March 30th and Spring training is over. I had this message from the start screen.



This tells me right off the bat to just sit back relax and wait to see what happens! The Major League season starts on April 1st.
AAA,AA and A Seasons starts April 4th

Our Rookie League season doesn't start until June 21st so I won't even know who is actually on my roster for almost 2 months....I guess the BIG LEAGUE Club and their Minor league affiliates will have their way with us until then....besides the First year player draft isn't until June 6th so there is absolutely NO POINT in me worrying about anything until that happens...But my guess is the major league club will be evaluating players until then and jockeying them around rosters until they figure out who will play where.


Fast foreword to June 1st, Here is the complete list of transactions for my team so far we've received 16 players and sent 14









At this point our roster has 29 players on it and 22 of them are pitchers

The Rookie Draft is today, that's what builds our team, and considering there are 3 other rookie League teams I expect some movement

Up next Post Rookie Draft Roster moves



n

[Painmantle]

Post Rookie Draft roster Moves




These transactions took place the day after the draft and our season is still 2 weeks away, The good news is now there are "rookies" and since I am running a "Rookie League team" that is a good thing....our roster is taking shape and we now have 31 players, 14 pitchers and 17 fielders/hitters. One thing I noticed is we have only one player with a defensive rating at both 1B and 3B, lets see if the Big League Club fixes that for us before our season starts in 2 weeks.



n

[Painmantle]

Only one move from the Big League club




I must have missed a 3B as we have 2 of them now but still only one guy who can play 1B but that's where I come In...I can't depend on the Big League Club to do everything for me, I guess if worse comes to worse I can stick one of my 8 OF at 1st base


And Now I'm Pissed, I never changed the settings to save minor league Box scores before the first game and we score 20 freakin runs and I can't see what happened!!!!

Oh well!



n

[Painmantle]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Just got my copy of OOTP14 today, and started a league with all default settings and unemployed. That path, of course, led me to become a minor league manager in Rookie ball, and I instantly ran into one of the problems that had made this feature unplayable in earlier versions, with the organization taking players off my roster, giving them back to me the next day, then taking them back off the day after that. We're still in pre-season, mind, so there's no legitimate reason for the AI to be doing this.

In this particular test I see a few players that qualifies under your "Made this feature unplayable" comment.

Lets evaluate his moves.

March 31 Received LF Vincente Lupo from the International complex
March 31 Sent him to Kingport
April 4 Received from Kingsport
April 11 Sent to Kingsport

March 31 Received SS Ahmed Rosario from the International complex
March 31 Sent him to Kingsport
April 11 Sent him to Kingsport
(Rosario was sent to Kingsport twice in a row it is nothing more than a double reporting of a move) He was simply sent to Kingsport


March 31 Received Pedro Perez from Kingsport
March 31 Sent him to Kingsport
April 1 Recieved him from Kingsport
April 11 Sent him to Kingsport


Are these reports kinda annoying, not to me. But they obviously are to you, but remember all of this stuff is happening and you don't really even have a team right now all you have is a contract to run a team that the Mother Ship builds for you. I present to you that these are nothing more than paperwork shifts by the Big league clubs and in fact the player never moves anywhere. Do you really believe for one minute that Lupo and Perez went back and forth from Port St Lucie, Florida to Kingsport,Tennessee 4 times in 12 days when the teams in question don't even play a game for another 9 weeks?

You Mr One Post Wonder are making a Mountain out of a Molehill imho. This in no way makes the game "unplayable" It takes imagination to play this game, use it and imagine that the Big League Clubs had some idiot making minimum wage in the front office who messed up the paper work and these players were sent to where ever they ended up only once.

Or is that too simple of a solution for you?

If anything this isn't an AI issue it is a text reporting issue and like I said it in no way, shape or form makes the game UN-PLAYABLE as you claim. Is this usefull enough for you?

[AstaSyneri]

I believe the antagonism going on here is completely unnecessary.

It doesn't matter whether the problem perceived is "real". If you consider OOTP to be a business simulation, you might want argue that "you have to put up with it", but in the end OOTP is a game and meant to be entertaining. So when a customer runs into a dead-end playing a certain feature of the game, the experience at least for this one person is real.

From the viewpoint playing the Minors could and should be a more fun experience (I had similar problems when I started my very first game - I didn't know how to set myself up for a major league job and tried the "career mode").

Many of the current crop of sports games (the ones you control with a ... controller ;-)) feature a career mode, which might lead a gamer to assume that you can do the same in OOTP (start in the Minors, work your way up).

In my opinion it is a very valid question a) to other users whether they face similar disappointments trying this "unofficial mode" and b) to the creators of this great game to improve the experience so it is more fun.

Just my 2c.