Alpha vs. Beta

[Jabez54]

To all those who may not know Martin (a teacher, he is in real life) ... for I have the pleasure of knowing him from another site and from his wonderful Journal ... he is truly unique and he may offend many but he is really a great standup mate (once you get to know him and his ways-for we all have our ways, as well)... he does speak from his heart but few may understand him from where he is coming from ... he is a legend when it comes to finding bugs, which in turn, does create a better Game for us all ... of course, from the beginning, we were forewarned about the shortcoming of the Beta version ... I jumped on the bandwagon because I want be able to save money and to be a part the Historical ride to which THIS Game will become (if not already) the GOLD standard of PC Hockey Game - as much as the OOTP has become ... so thank you, Martin, for your input and explaining the differences between the Alpha and the Beta format ...hey, I'm looking forward to your next reply, mate ... ... as always, Tomas

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by umwoz

The term beta or alpha has nothing to do with what is included feature wise. Beta simply means it's being tested by people outside of the production team.

This actually isn't true at all.

Alpha is where features are still being added and tested for basic functionality. Beta comes when the software is "feature complete", and these features begin testing for end-use.

Who's testing the software will certainly progress with the phases, but it's not necessarily what defines alpha or beta software.

[CeeBee]

Ive beta tested before and features were added well after beta testing started. Different strokes for different companies I guess

[erikthered]

Originally Posted by Stinson

This actually isn't true at all.

Alpha is where features are still being added and tested for basic functionality. Beta comes when the software is "feature complete", and these features begin testing for end-use.

Who's testing the software will certainly progress with the phases, but it's not necessarily what defines alpha or beta software.

Just about everything I've ever read has basically defined them as the following:

alpha testing--testing done internally by the developers
beta testing--testing done by a larger group of external users representing real world software usage.

But I'm not computer engineer, so I can't say for sure. I do know that the whole point of beta testing is to find bugs in places the development team may not have the resources or time to do so, and that changes and evolution occur during the process.

Part of what I don't really understand is the frustration about how the game was presented at the release of the beta. Whatever you want to call the process, the developers laid out in rather good detail what to expect from he prerelease versions. The fact is, you're not buying a discounted beta version (or whatever you want to call it), you're preordering a finished game to be released in September. Your inclusion in the testing process is entirely optional and is just a little bonus "feature" of the purchase of the full game.

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by CeeBee

Ive beta tested before and features were added well after beta testing started. Different strokes for different companies I guess

Yeah, a lot of developers these days are doing this. Minecraft is a great example of a game that kind of mashed all development together, and then arbitrarily used the terms.

I think nowadays, "alpha" and "beta" are really just cool buzzwords to indicate that the game is unfinished. Beta means it's buggy, and alpha means it's very buggy.

[SlyBelle]

Whether I agree or disagree with the term alpha/beta testing, seems like a very minor point right now since the developers did an excellent job in describing the condition of the game prior to releasing it. Nobody should have been surprised in what they got regardless of the testing term used.

At this point, put it on the shelf and just consider it a pre order with a discount...there is no obligation to play it in the condition it is if you don't want too.

[Walsh06]

Originally Posted by Stinson

Yeah, a lot of developers these days are doing this. Minecraft is a great example of a game that kind of mashed all development together, and then arbitrarily used the terms.

I think nowadays, "alpha" and "beta" are really just cool buzzwords to indicate that the game is unfinished. Beta means it's buggy, and alpha means it's very buggy.

They arent buzzwords but it depends on the development methods and cycles you are using which define what they mean.

[CatKnight]

Pretty much concur with everyone else here:

Regardless of whether one wants to call it an Alpha or Beta, we were given more than fair warning about the state of the software. If you don't want to be part of a 'paid beta,' put the game away til September and update it then.

[lorreporre]

So much energy spent on a meaningless thread ! Forgot my English (after all i'm French), but what is the point discussing which Greek letter you want a non finish game to carry !
I know nothing about those things but one thing i 'm sure of is that nobody fooled me with this ! I knew exactly what i gave myself in to ... and so far i don't regret a thing ! If yu don't want to test the game, put it away till September as CatKnight just said !
You guys won't agree anyway so call it what you want in your head and thats it !
So please, i propose to close this thread and let the developers go back to their work, they surely need more time to it than following thread like that !

Keep up the good work guys !

[Primis]

Originally Posted by lorreporre

So much energy spent on a meaningless thread ! Forgot my English (after all i'm French), but what is the point discussing which Greek letter you want a non finish game to carry !

Because to be perfectly blunt, the game is an alpha build and is in such a state that quite frankly none of us can really help them with anything because it's so unstable that nobody can get anything going.

I can't help with anything because every time I go to sim a game it crashes, and every time I go to sign someone I never know if they'll disappear or not. So you know what happens? I shelve it and go do something else. I don't play around with it. There's nothing else to really test. I don't need to TRY to break it, it's breaking on its own just fine thanks. I don't need to seek out bugs and glitches, they're leaping in front of me on their own.

At the end of the day if OOTP really wants community input and help, the thing needs to be mostly-stable playable first or else there's nothing else to really comment on aside from "Yup, it crashed again".

So yes, it matters, unless this whole testing thing is a smokescreen and user input is just plain being ignored because it was a grab to get cash earlier. Once they have taken money, OOTP has opened themselves to criticism whether they like it or not (or you like it). Thus the perils of what they're trying here.

I don't doubt there's a little bit of useful info being gleaned from the testing but... at the end of the day these builds never should have gotten out of internal testing I'm afraid. Many devs would be horrified that these early builds are already shaping public opinion of the game this far ahead of release.

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by Primis

Because to be perfectly blunt, the game is an alpha build and is in such a state that quite frankly none of us can really help them with anything because it's so unstable that nobody can get anything going.

I can't help with anything because every time I go to sim a game it crashes, and every time I go to sign someone I never know if they'll disappear or not. So you know what happens? I shelve it and go do something else. I don't play around with it. There's nothing else to really test. I don't need to TRY to break it, it's breaking on its own just fine thanks. I don't need to seek out bugs and glitches, they're leaping in front of me on their own.

At the end of the day if OOTP really wants community input and help, the thing needs to be mostly-stable playable first or else there's nothing else to really comment on aside from "Yup, it crashed again".

So yes, it matters, unless this whole testing thing is a smokescreen and user input is just plain being ignored because it was a grab to get cash earlier. Once they have taken money, OOTP has opened themselves to criticism whether they like it or not (or you like it). Thus the perils of what they're trying here.

I don't doubt there's a little bit of useful info being gleaned from the testing but... at the end of the day these builds never should have gotten out of internal testing I'm afraid. Many devs would be horrified that these early builds are already shaping public opinion of the game this far ahead of release.

Then also to be perfectly blunt not everyone have the same problem as yours. In fact, in the Beta: what to expect thread JeffR even noted that some internal testers are report a lot more unstabilities than others so people have been given a fair warning. (For me, I actually never have my game crashed when I was trying to sim a game) If you have your game crashes, report where/when/what were you trying to do when game crashes, which would be very helpful to the development team to fix the particular issue.

Also, as several commenters already pointed out, Nobody forces you to play/test the current buggy/feature incomplete/unstable version. If you find yourself can't deal with the current version, then don't play it, don't worry about it, play the one that's feature complete/stable version when it's released in the september. Think of the current beta/alpha/beginning/ground zero/whatever you like to call it as a bonus for pre-order the game, you pre-order the game that's coming out in september, not the one you are getting right now.

The bottom line is, OOTP/FHM development team stated very clearly (and repeatedly) that the current version will have bugs, features will be incomplete, there will have a lot of crashes, and I'm very aware of these issues when I pre-ordered the game and downloaded the bata. If people didn't realize this before they downloaded the beta, then it's hardly development team's fault.

[Jabez54]

I'm agreeing with Lorre on this one ... close the thread ...

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by Jabez54

I'm agreeing with Lorre on this one ... close the thread ...

No, I'm leaving it open. Aside from the fact that everyone is being fairly polite, it serves the useful purpose of confirming to prospective purchasers that, yes, I actually meant it when I said there are a lot of bugs in the game right now.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Primis

... the thing needs to be mostly-stable playable first or else there's nothing else to really comment on aside from "Yup, it crashed again".

Except that you're missing other things on which feedback can be given which is still valuable. For example, the interface. It is intuitive? Is it easy to navigate? Is it laid out in a way that seems logical? Does it require an inordinate amount of clicks to get something done?

And, as has been stated already, anyone who has purchased the game has not purchased the current version, what you have done is pre-ordered the version that'll be out in September. That is hardly an unusual occurrence in gaming. You can pre-order Battlefield 4 right now even though that game isn't coming out until November. The main difference is that pre-ordering the latter gives you bonuses in the form of exclusives for the game you can't get in the retail version, while pre-ordering FHM allows you to download and play its current version. The advantage of which is that your input can help shape FHM's release version.

[Jabez54]

Okay, Jeff ... ... I know what you've had stated from the beginning and I went out and took advantaged of the sale ... I know the Game is going to be worth it even beyond the Final Release, as well as, the upcoming versions (along with the patches, too ) ... This is how Mr. Martin does it with his all his unique postings ... with all the logics and ponderings ... and here we are ... from the Alpha to the Omega, with the Beta in the middle ...

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by Walsh06

They arent buzzwords...

I'm well aware of that. But re-read my post...

I was talking about how a number of games these days don't necessarily follow the traditional phases - Minecraft being a great example - but they still use the terms... almost like buzzwords.

[Primis]

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

The bottom line is, OOTP/FHM development team stated very clearly (and repeatedly) that the current version will have bugs, features will be incomplete, there will have a lot of crashes, and I'm very aware of these issues when I pre-ordered the game and downloaded the bata. If people didn't realize this before they downloaded the beta, then it's hardly development team's fault.

Nobody here is trying to crucify Jeff or anyone else with OOTP. If nobody cared, instead of posting here they'd run off elsewhere and badmouth the game. Instead they're taking their time to come here and let their feelings be known and kudos to Jeff for having the smarts to not whack this thread, for a variety of reasons.

Here's a big reason though why some are concerned about what seem like silly "terms" that don't matter: the current build feels more Alpha than Beta, it doesn't feel like something that should be a 0.9.xxx build either, and quite frankly some are beginning to openly wonder if there's time for OOTP to get from the current Alpha-ey build stage to Final by September. To some of you that seems like a long time. It's not really, especially since FHM is not the only product being worked on here. Months are a very small time-frame in gamedev world. Personally, I know I'm concerned having finally spent good time with the latest build too. 5 months isn't much time.

(Last paragraph deleted. Kindly refrain from speculating about the motives of other posters. I don't want that sort of nonsense starting in here. - Jeff)

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by Primis

Nobody here is trying to crucify Jeff or anyone else with OOTP. If nobody cared, instead of posting here they'd run off elsewhere and badmouth the game. Instead they're taking their time to come here and let their feelings be known and kudos to Jeff for having the smarts to not whack this thread, for a variety of reasons.

Here's a big reason though why some are concerned about what seem like silly "terms" that don't matter: the current build feels more Alpha than Beta, it doesn't feel like something that should be a 0.9.xxx build either, and quite frankly some are beginning to openly wonder if there's time for OOTP to get from the current Alpha-ey build stage to Final by September. To some of you that seems like a long time. It's not really, especially since FHM is not the only product being worked on here. Months are a very small time-frame in gamedev world. Personally, I know I'm concerned having finally spent good time with the latest build too. 5 months isn't much time.

(Last paragraph deleted. Kindly refrain from speculating about the motives of other posters. I don't want that sort of nonsense starting in here. - Jeff)

Not directly respond to you, but it seems to me that OP is talking about how this version is so much less ready than he/she thought it is (which is true depends on your perspective) and feel somewhat cheated by the development (which is completely not true), I'm just responding to later points.

As for the development itself. Well, after spending quite a few years on OOTP, I personally would not doubt the development team's ability to make this a great game. However, people are free to have their own opinions, so if you don't feel the current version is even testable (and is not asking for a refund), then the best thing you could do is put the game away for a few month and download the version that's stable and feature complete. My point is of course you are free to voice your concern, but it doesn't really provide useful info for the development team does it?

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by Primis

Nobody here is trying to crucify Jeff or anyone else with OOTP.

Oh and just so you know. the quote like this :"I wish the developers all the best and I hope that they are honest with themselves and their customers in the future. " or this "unless this whole testing thing is a smokescreen and user input is just plain being ignored because it was a grab to get cash earlier." is what slightly ticks me (and some other posters here) off. Want voice your concerns? Fine, you are entirely within your right to do so. But those two quotes goes beyond voicing concern and starts to speculater or even attack the development team's character, which is not fair and (especially the first one) not even true.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

Oh and just so you know. the quote like this :"I wish the developers all the best and I hope that they are honest with themselves and their customers in the future. " or this "unless this whole testing thing is a smokescreen and user input is just plain being ignored because it was a grab to get cash earlier." is what slightly ticks me (and some other posters here) off. Want voice your concerns? Fine, you are entirely within your right to do so. But those two quotes goes beyond voicing concern and starts to speculater or even attack the development team's character, which is not fair and (especially the first one) not even true.

I really and truly wasn't going to post again in this thread since I said what I had to say. I didn't post when so many people don't understand the concept of alpha and beta so they feel free to make up their own meanings. If you put a pig in front of me and call it beef, is it beef? I think not. I believe in the concept of alpha and beta software and when someone tells me "it's beta", then I believe them.

I stick by what I wrote and am not launching a counter-attack. However, you tomwolf2008, are really out of line here. You quote me correctly in your first quote in the post above, however you chose to attribute the 2nd quote in your post above to me. Now, people will believe you because you said it and they don't know what everyone wrote (nor will they look and find out), so they trust you read the thread carefully and know of what you speak. However I did not say what is in the 2nd thing you quoted and never even came close to saying anything like that. It's a sneaky way to make a personal attack and it's a nice try guy, but I reread my post just to be sure (and you should have read the post) and nothing like that came off my fingertips and on to this forum.

I don't really care who agrees with me and who doesn't agree with me. I don't throw around terms lightly and I make sure I understand what I'm talking about when I use terms that have specific meanings in their field. Choose your words wisely and if you do so, you are covered against the misinformed and those that choose to be misinformed.

This is a dangerous place if you don't run with the pack and I guess I don't run very well with the pack. I could make an argument against pretty much everything that has been written in almost every post, but what's the point? A pig is a pig and a fish is a fish and a cow is a cow. If you can understand that concept it's not such a leap to understand that alpha is alpha and beta is beta if you understand what the terms mean in the world of professional software.

Good night and good luck.