New In-Game "Pitch to Contact"

Qwerty75 · 01-25-2013, 12:59 AM

Did I miss a discussion about adding this option to the in-game Pitching strategy menu? What is the rationale behind adding it to what's already available? I'm assuming using it will reduce the chance of a BB or K, but increase the chance of a hit or HR. The average number of pitches logged against total pitch count would be lower than the normal (#1) strategy as well, I'd think.

Not a protest, but just wondering what others think and hoping to spark some discussion. Talk amongst yourselves-

Markus Heinsohn · 01-25-2013, 05:41 AM

Exactly, it will increase the chance of the ball being hit in play (and out of the park) and supress the number of pitches. This could be used if you would like a double play, for example.

BIG17EASY · 01-25-2013, 08:40 AM

This would be most useful when pitching with a big lead.

Gator · 01-25-2013, 05:58 PM

IMHO "pitching to contact" as discussed here as a strategy which would allow a surpressed pitch count at the expense of allowing more hits is not ever employed in professsinal baseball. It may in deed be preached as desirable to young starting pitchers who in an attempt to be overly fine with their pitches lose control, movement and/or stuff from fatigue, but it should be valued only in the context that it would actually produce better overall results, which is to say result in more outs and not more hits.

Qwerty75 · 01-25-2013, 08:31 PM

It's useful when the pitcher has spotty command/control and he has a good defense behind him. Having a good defense behind the pitcher would also might make it worthwhile to risk the slightly greater chance of giving up a hit if the batters already have good AvK ratings and/or the league has a low K rate overall.

Gator · 01-25-2013, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwerty75

It's useful when the pitcher has spotty command/control and he has a good defense behind him. Having a good defense behind the pitcher would also might make it worthwhile to risk the slightly greater chance of giving up a hit if the batters already have good AvK ratings and/or the league has a low K rate overall.

I would note that if as you suggest there is a slightly greater chance of giving up a hit by employing the "pitch to contact" strategy, then any level of outstanding defense behind the pitcher has no bearing as there still will be more hits.

Charlie Hough · 01-25-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gator

I would note that if as you suggest there is a slightly greater chance of giving up a hit by employing the "pitch to contact" strategy, then any level of outstanding defense behind the pitcher has no bearing as there still will be more hits.

The defense will absolutely have a bearing on it because it can still take away a hit on a batted ball. I think this feature really means that there is a greater likelihood of contact, which means, naturally, that there is a greater likelihood of a base hit. But fielders can still make a play on the ball, just as they can in any other contact situation.

Gator · 01-25-2013, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

The defense will absolutely have a bearing on it because it can still take away a hit on a batted ball. I think this feature really means that there is a greater likelihood of contact, which means, naturally, that there is a greater likelihood of a base hit. But fielders can still make a play on the ball, just as they can in any other contact situation.

Agreed, defense always has a bearing on outcome (save strikeouts and homeruns), but once you say there is an increased chance to give up hits, then in the long run there will always be more hits or there really isn't a chance to give up more hits.

Qwerty75 · 01-25-2013, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gator

Agreed, defense always has a bearing on outcome (save strikeouts and homeruns), but once you say there is an increased chance to give up hits, then in the long run there will always be more hits or there really isn't a chance to give up more hits.

The increased chance of giving up a hit is with all defenses being equal. Theoretically, using a "Pitch to Contact" strategy with a good defense may result in fewer runs allowed than when using a "normal" pitching strategy with an average defense, depending on how good the defense is when the pitcher pitches to contact. The tradeoff can be worth it if the defense is good enough (hard to be more specific not having actual numbers at hand). The profile of the batter at the plate and the league-wide rates for individual batting outcomes (K, BB, BABIP) also factor in to whether the strategy is a good one for a given at-bat. Maybe the pitcher profile might have something to do with it, too; I'm not sure. As Markus suggests, score, inning, and baserunner situation are a factor, too.

I think you're forgetting that pitching to contact will result in fewer walks. If the extra runs given up through more hits/HR allowed is less than the runs saved from fewer BB/HBP, then the strategy has paid off.

The Wolf · 01-26-2013, 12:17 AM

Consider what might happen when using this strategy with a groundball pitcher and a superb infield.

Gator · 01-26-2013, 12:32 AM

I do get that a superior infield will decrease the number of hits. What I guess I'm missing is how does telling the pither to throw it more in the center of the plate or "pitch to contact" going to reduce the number of hits?

injury log · 01-26-2013, 12:44 AM

If the feature works correctly, then, in a vacuum, it should be disadvantageous to choose to 'pitch to contact'. That is, if you do it all the time, your pitchers' ERAs should go up a fair bit. After all, strikeouts are good, and pitchers get more strikeouts than walks, so it shouldn't be a good strategy to try to not get strikeouts.

But there are situations where you might want to pitch to contact - in a blowout game, for example, when your bullpen is already exhausted, you might want to have an option to keep your pitch counts way down. There also may be specific game situations where the strategy would be useful; for example, with a low Stuff and low Control pitcher on the mound, and with the bases loaded, you might prefer to have your pitcher give up a ball in play rather than risk a walk. Or in a situation where a double play might be preferable to a strikeout, it might be an option to consider.

The Wolf · 01-26-2013, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gator

I do get that a superior infield will decrease the number of hits. What I guess I'm missing is how does telling the pither to throw it more in the center of the plate or "pitch to contact" going to reduce the number of hits?

You're looking at it the wrong way. What it can do under those conditions is to reduce the number of walks and to increase the number of double plays and ground outs. There are tactical advantages to be gained here under some circumstances.

CBL-Commish · 01-26-2013, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by injury log

If the feature works correctly, then, in a vacuum, it should be disadvantageous to choose to 'pitch to contact'. That is, if you do it all the time, your pitchers' ERAs should go up a fair bit. After all, strikeouts are good, and pitchers get more strikeouts than walks, so it shouldn't be a good strategy to try to not get strikeouts.

I'm at least a little concerned about this option, and the unintended impacts of implementing it. We occasionally hear of this happening in MLB... but how often? Will the impact be enough, or too much? If you pitch to contact all the time with a good defense will you end up with strings of 60-pitch complete games (which clearly doesn't happen, at least in modern baseball)?

I think if done correctly it'll fade into the background and mostly be ignored, like some of the personality stuff or clutch ratings. The effects should be very subtle and muted.

injury log · 01-26-2013, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

If you pitch to contact all the time with a good defense will you end up with strings of 60-pitch complete games (which clearly doesn't happen, at least in modern baseball)?

Obviously that won't happen. And you wouldn't want to do that anyway, because your pitcher will pitch worse.

The big question about in-game is how to make it more interesting to users who have seen the same 7 buttons on their screens for six versions. If you have other ideas besides IF and OF shifts, let us know.

RchW · 01-26-2013, 10:19 AM

I'm not sure I like this feature 100% as it smacks of artificiality. In real life when pitchers get a big lead managers often get ulcers because their pitcher or pitchers "don't" pitch to contact. How many times have you seen a manager come out in the 4th or 5th inning with that big lead and men on base to ask what the ___ is going on.

I think it should be a pitcher attribute not a strategy setting that is somewhat automatically successful. So unless you have a "nibbles at corners with a big lead" pitcher rating, having a pitch to contact setting seems artificial.

Gator · 01-26-2013, 10:40 AM

The other thing is that at least in the modern game, pitchers understand that they get paid according to production on the field and any strategy that does not ultimately benefit an individual pitcher's production would be hard to implement. And yes I know batters do give themselves up in order to move a runner often enough, but in the case of the batter it is very obvious whether he has made the attempt to do so, whereas in the case of a pitcher it would be very difficult to determine whether he is not pitching to contact or just missing his spots.

Puckett guy · 01-30-2013, 11:27 AM

IRL the Minnesota Twins management has at least given lipservice about developing and signing "pitch to contact" pitchers. Strikeouts go down and walks go down. Also, an effective "pitch to contact" pitcher can locate his pitches in a way that solid contact is limited. Theoretically this is all supose to work well if you have a good defense and a pitcher friendly ballpark. However, after losing 90+ games the past two seasons it looks like the Twins are thankfully giving up on this idea and are now desperately trying to find a few pitchers who can actually strike people out.

I don't mind if it is modeled in OOTP, but it should exhibit some of these real life limitations.

BIG17EASY · 01-30-2013, 11:43 AM

If this feature works correctly, then pitchers with high control ratings will be better at this, and vice versa. Pitch to contact doesn't simply mean "throw the ball down the middle," or at least that's not what it should mean. A guy like Greg Maddux can successfully pitch to contact and still be highly successful because he can throw quality strikes that are still difficult to hit hard. Conversely, a guy who doesn't have great control is more likely to throw a meatball when pitching to contact, which leads to more hits, many of which will be hit hard.

All that considered, I can see the skepticism of some of the people regarding this feature. I hope it works correctly, because if it doesn't, it could cause some serious issues or just be a useless feature.

D-BacksJosh · 01-30-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

If this feature works correctly, then pitchers with high control ratings will be better at this, and vice versa. Pitch to contact doesn't simply mean "throw the ball down the middle," or at least that's not what it should mean. A guy like Greg Maddux can successfully pitch to contact and still be highly successful because he can throw quality strikes that are still difficult to hit hard. Conversely, a guy who doesn't have great control is more likely to throw a meatball when pitching to contact, which leads to more hits, many of which will be hit hard.

All that considered, I can see the skepticism of some of the people regarding this feature. I hope it works correctly, because if it doesn't, it could cause some serious issues or just be a useless feature.

Absolutely. Using this strategy would require a pitcher with pinpoint accuracy, and preferably a strong sinker.

“The only time I really try for a strikeout is when I’m in a jam. If the bases are loaded with none out, for example, then I’ll go for a strikeout. But most of the time I try to throw to spots. I try to get them to pop up or ground out. On a strikeout I might have to throw five or six pitches, sometimes more if there are foul-offs. That tires me. So I just try to get outs. That’s what counts - outs. You win with outs, not strikeouts.”

“I became a good pitcher when I stopped trying to make them miss the ball and started trying to make them hit it.” - Sandy Koufax

01-25-2013, 05:41 AM	#2
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	Exactly, it will increase the chance of the ball being hit in play (and out of the park) and supress the number of pitches. This could be used if you would like a double play, for example. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

01-25-2013, 05:58 PM	#4
Gator Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 150	IMHO "pitching to contact" as discussed here as a strategy which would allow a surpressed pitch count at the expense of allowing more hits is not ever employed in professsinal baseball. It may in deed be preached as desirable to young starting pitchers who in an attempt to be overly fine with their pitches lose control, movement and/or stuff from fatigue, but it should be valued only in the context that it would actually produce better overall results, which is to say result in more outs and not more hits. __________________ Baseball will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set, Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. Walt Whitman

01-25-2013, 08:31 PM	#5
Qwerty75 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 817	It's useful when the pitcher has spotty command/control and he has a good defense behind him. Having a good defense behind the pitcher would also might make it worthwhile to risk the slightly greater chance of giving up a hit if the batters already have good AvK ratings and/or the league has a low K rate overall. __________________

01-26-2013, 12:32 AM	#11
Gator Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 150	I do get that a superior infield will decrease the number of hits. What I guess I'm missing is how does telling the pither to throw it more in the center of the plate or "pitch to contact" going to reduce the number of hits? __________________ Baseball will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set, Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. Walt Whitman

01-26-2013, 10:19 AM	#16
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I'm not sure I like this feature 100% as it smacks of artificiality. In real life when pitchers get a big lead managers often get ulcers because their pitcher or pitchers "don't" pitch to contact. How many times have you seen a manager come out in the 4th or 5th inning with that big lead and men on base to ask what the ___ is going on. I think it should be a pitcher attribute not a strategy setting that is somewhat automatically successful. So unless you have a "nibbles at corners with a big lead" pitcher rating, having a pitch to contact setting seems artificial. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

01-25-2013, 12:59 AM	#1
Qwerty75 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 817	New In-Game "Pitch to Contact" Did I miss a discussion about adding this option to the in-game Pitching strategy menu? What is the rationale behind adding it to what's already available? I'm assuming using it will reduce the chance of a BB or K, but increase the chance of a hit or HR. The average number of pitches logged against total pitch count would be lower than the normal (#1) strategy as well, I'd think. Not a protest, but just wondering what others think and hoping to spark some discussion. Talk amongst yourselves- __________________

01-25-2013, 08:40 AM	#3
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	This would be most useful when pitching with a big lead.

01-26-2013, 12:44 AM	#12
injury log Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 9,162	If the feature works correctly, then, in a vacuum, it should be disadvantageous to choose to 'pitch to contact'. That is, if you do it all the time, your pitchers' ERAs should go up a fair bit. After all, strikeouts are good, and pitchers get more strikeouts than walks, so it shouldn't be a good strategy to try to not get strikeouts. But there are situations where you might want to pitch to contact - in a blowout game, for example, when your bullpen is already exhausted, you might want to have an option to keep your pitch counts way down. There also may be specific game situations where the strategy would be useful; for example, with a low Stuff and low Control pitcher on the mound, and with the bases loaded, you might prefer to have your pitcher give up a ball in play rather than risk a walk. Or in a situation where a double play might be preferable to a strikeout, it might be an option to consider.

01-26-2013, 10:40 AM	#17
Gator Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 150	The other thing is that at least in the modern game, pitchers understand that they get paid according to production on the field and any strategy that does not ultimately benefit an individual pitcher's production would be hard to implement. And yes I know batters do give themselves up in order to move a runner often enough, but in the case of the batter it is very obvious whether he has made the attempt to do so, whereas in the case of a pitcher it would be very difficult to determine whether he is not pitching to contact or just missing his spots. __________________ Baseball will take our people out-of-doors, fill them with oxygen, give them a larger physical stoicism. Tend to relieve us from being a nervous, dyspeptic set, Repair these losses, and be a blessing to us. Walt Whitman

01-30-2013, 11:27 AM	#18
Puckett guy Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Near Lake Wobegone Posts: 306	IRL the Minnesota Twins management has at least given lipservice about developing and signing "pitch to contact" pitchers. Strikeouts go down and walks go down. Also, an effective "pitch to contact" pitcher can locate his pitches in a way that solid contact is limited. Theoretically this is all supose to work well if you have a good defense and a pitcher friendly ballpark. However, after losing 90+ games the past two seasons it looks like the Twins are thankfully giving up on this idea and are now desperately trying to find a few pitchers who can actually strike people out. I don't mind if it is modeled in OOTP, but it should exhibit some of these real life limitations. __________________ "...and we'll see you tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, October 26, 1991, HHH Metrodome, Mpls, MN

01-30-2013, 11:43 AM	#19
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	If this feature works correctly, then pitchers with high control ratings will be better at this, and vice versa. Pitch to contact doesn't simply mean "throw the ball down the middle," or at least that's not what it should mean. A guy like Greg Maddux can successfully pitch to contact and still be highly successful because he can throw quality strikes that are still difficult to hit hard. Conversely, a guy who doesn't have great control is more likely to throw a meatball when pitching to contact, which leads to more hits, many of which will be hit hard. All that considered, I can see the skepticism of some of the people regarding this feature. I hope it works correctly, because if it doesn't, it could cause some serious issues or just be a useless feature.