HoF or Not: Curt Schilling - Page 4

Luis_Rivera · 01-30-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

Will Curt be voted in? Yes.

Should Curt be voted in? No.

Who would you vote in ahead of him from this era?

Elendil · 01-30-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

If you have to wait for time to pass for a player's career stats to look great, then you're looking at the wrong stats.

I disagree. Starting pitchers are pitching less these days, and that trend looks set to continue. Fewer and fewer good, even great pitchers will reach the innings pitched (and therefore total value) of the greats of even recent history. And yes, this trend will affect win totals too, which shouldn't even be considered as a Hall criterion (but they will).

Luis_Rivera · 01-30-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elendil

I disagree. Starting pitchers are pitching less these days, and that trend looks set to continue. Fewer and fewer good, even great pitchers will reach the innings pitched (and therefore total value) of the greats of even recent history. And yes, this trend will affect win totals too, which shouldn't even be considered as a Hall criterion (but they will).

Well your last statement partially makes my point for me.

The rest of it is that you should be able to look at stats in ways that compare them to a player's contemporaries. Therefore, as time passes, the stats and the perception of them won't change because it will remain in the context of the era in which they were established.

How does the trend look set to continue? It looks to me like it's going to be level from this point into the foreseeable future.

disposableheros · 01-30-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Who would you vote in ahead of him from this era?

off the top of my head.....maddux, martinez, johnson and clemens.

schilling, mussina, brown, smoltz, and glavine are all in my HoVG, unless something drastic happens to them in their next couple waning years.

Luis_Rivera · 01-30-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

off the top of my head.....maddux, martinez, johnson and clemens.

schilling, mussina, brown, smoltz, and glavine are all in my HoVG, unless something drastic happens to them in their next couple waning years.

Gotcha... makes complete sense then.

FTR, when I said 5 pitchers at least at his level, the 4 you mention I have clearly above him, and Moose was the one at his level.

marc · 01-30-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

off the top of my head.....maddux, martinez, johnson and clemens.

schilling, mussina, brown, smoltz, and glavine are all in my HoVG, unless something drastic happens to them in their next couple waning years.

I'm a small hall guy too but wow!

Elendil · 01-30-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Well your last statement partially makes my point for me.

The rest of it is that you should be able to look at stats in ways that compare them to a player's contemporaries. Therefore, as time passes, the stats and the perception of them won't change because it will remain in the context of the era in which they were established.

How does the trend look set to continue? It looks to me like it's going to be level from this point into the foreseeable future.

OK - I actually think Schilling looks good enough compared to his contemporaries. However, none of his contemporaries have gone up for Hall induction yet, so past expectations of Hall-worthiness are still in place.

disposableheros · 01-30-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marc

I'm a small hall guy too but wow!

there are currently 64 MLB pitchers in the HoF. adding the 4 current era no-brainers increases membership by 6.25%. IMO, that doesnt make me a small hall guy.

what makes me a small hall guy is booting grimes, haines, hunter, and marquard to make room for them

marc · 01-30-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

there are currently 64 MLB pitchers in the HoF. adding the 4 current era no-brainers increases membership by 6.25%. IMO, that doesnt make me a small hall guy.

what makes me a small hall guy is booting grimes, haines, hunter, and marquard to make room for them

6.25% increase wouldn't be proportional. If you wanted to break it down, you would probably need to throw in atleast another 2-3 pitchers from this era. Like I said, I'm a small hall guy myself so I don't really care.

Luis_Rivera · 01-30-2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disposableheros

what makes me a small hall guy is booting grimes, haines, hunter, and marquard to make room for them

Wrong... booting Marquard makes you a rational human being.

darkhorse · 01-31-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Wrong... booting Marquard makes you a rational human being.

What does booting Sutter make one?

Caporegime · 01-31-2007, 10:06 PM

It kills me to say this as a Yankee fan, but...yes, tampon sock and all, he's a HoF'er

Erich Ingram · 01-31-2007, 10:32 PM

I can only imagine what type of numbers Schilling could have put up if he hadn't pitched in Philly all those years and had pitched for say Boston the whole time since that is where he started. And before Jason Moyer comes after me, I am a huge Phillies fan and I think most know this, but outside of 1993 when he pitched fantastic in the World Series, an amazing game 5 against Toronto, the team wasn't really that great for him.

He won a World Series in Arizona and was the co MVP and pitched amazing in the season and the playoffs.

He said he was going to win the World Series in Boston and helped will them to it, granted with a little help from Dave Roberts stealing second but even still he came out and pitched when he clearly shouldn't have.

Comparing him to Mussina is tough because Moose has pitched on a lot of very high paid very good teams, so I kind of discount his number of wins, granted he always was able to beat Pedro and Boston but he still hasn't won in the World Series. But he did prevent the Sox from winning in 2003 with a masterful game cleaning up for Clemens.

Cy Youngs, kind of tough to put Schill down there though as he should have won at least one while in AZ, granted Johnson kept winning them so it wasn't like he was getting beat out by a non HOFer.

Now all that being said, my vote was Yes he will get in, but that is because I expect he will win 30-37 more games in the next two years in Boston and that 237-244 wins plus the Big Game pitching and the World Championships will get him in at that point.

Now as for the other players named, Mussina, has a shot if he keeps winning, Brown, I don't know, he was very good for awhile but I don't know if the writers like him enough to put him in. Smoltz, I gotta think he does in pretty easily. Glavine just needs to get to 300 and he goes in.

The other 4, will go in first ballot not even a question in my mind. Clemens should eclipse Seaver in my opinion for %age of vote.

Jason Moyer · 02-01-2007, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich Ingram

And before Jason Moyer comes after me

Don't look at me, I totally agree with you. Schilling wasted some outstanding seasons pitching for wretched Phillies teams. 97 and 98 in particular.

Erich Ingram · 02-01-2007, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Don't look at me, I totally agree with you. Schilling wasted some outstanding seasons pitching for wretched Phillies teams. 97 and 98 in particular.

Jason, I knew you would agree with me.

.

Lazareth · 02-01-2007, 09:26 AM

I voted Hot. Wait, what was the question?

Raderick · 12-10-2012, 11:46 PM

Wonder what he thinks about this...

View Poll Results: Will Curt be voted into the Baseball Hall of Fame?
Yes	50	67.57%
No	24	32.43%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

01-31-2007, 10:06 PM	#72
Caporegime All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: The Borough of Kings Posts: 1,714	It kills me to say this as a Yankee fan, but...yes, tampon sock and all, he's a HoF'er __________________ "If you don't know where you are going, you'll wind up someplace else." - Lawrence Peter Berra

01-31-2007, 10:32 PM	#73
Erich Ingram Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,199	I can only imagine what type of numbers Schilling could have put up if he hadn't pitched in Philly all those years and had pitched for say Boston the whole time since that is where he started. And before Jason Moyer comes after me, I am a huge Phillies fan and I think most know this, but outside of 1993 when he pitched fantastic in the World Series, an amazing game 5 against Toronto, the team wasn't really that great for him. He won a World Series in Arizona and was the co MVP and pitched amazing in the season and the playoffs. He said he was going to win the World Series in Boston and helped will them to it, granted with a little help from Dave Roberts stealing second but even still he came out and pitched when he clearly shouldn't have. Comparing him to Mussina is tough because Moose has pitched on a lot of very high paid very good teams, so I kind of discount his number of wins, granted he always was able to beat Pedro and Boston but he still hasn't won in the World Series. But he did prevent the Sox from winning in 2003 with a masterful game cleaning up for Clemens. Cy Youngs, kind of tough to put Schill down there though as he should have won at least one while in AZ, granted Johnson kept winning them so it wasn't like he was getting beat out by a non HOFer. Now all that being said, my vote was Yes he will get in, but that is because I expect he will win 30-37 more games in the next two years in Boston and that 237-244 wins plus the Big Game pitching and the World Championships will get him in at that point. Now as for the other players named, Mussina, has a shot if he keeps winning, Brown, I don't know, he was very good for awhile but I don't know if the writers like him enough to put him in. Smoltz, I gotta think he does in pretty easily. Glavine just needs to get to 300 and he goes in. The other 4, will go in first ballot not even a question in my mind. Clemens should eclipse Seaver in my opinion for %age of vote. __________________ Erich Ingram (Rolen17) IOSBL San Diego Aztecs 2010, 2012,2013, 2014 World Series Champions Maelstrom Padres 2026 World Champions eMLB Washington Nationals

12-10-2012, 11:46 PM	#77
Raderick Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 2,737	Wonder what he thinks about this... __________________

02-01-2007, 09:26 AM	#76
Lazareth Banned Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 129 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	I voted Hot. Wait, what was the question?