Problems with pitching ratings in the game engine

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I say all of this respectfully...Maybe because he is a hometown favorite and you see his RL self through hometown media your perception on how good he actually is is skewed towards the positive.

I moved to Philly and watched scores, if not hundreds of their games during the WS runs in the presence of lifelong Philadelphians.

IMO, Cole Hammels is not the elite pitcher I believe you think he is, and he is certainly not the elite guy that the hometown broadcasters make him out to be or the print media wishes him to be. He had an excellent 2008 season and a tremendous post season, but he never captured my fancy like Clayton Kershaw did.

When the Phillies acquired Cliff Lee he was the markedly better pitcher of the two.

My take on Hammels' in 2008 was that he did have potential, but it is yet to be seen how he grows. Philly fan, in general, is a myopic breed. People I spoke to were already saying Hammels was going to have a career like Steve Carlton...he was better than Carlton! Why? Because he was there guy and that's how hometown folks relate to their hometown guys when the local media heaps praises upon praises.

Hammels has not developed into a better pitcher than 2008. If you could take 5 SPs from 2012 to make the rotation of your choosing, if you chose Hammels as one of them you have not made the best rotation...he isn't in the argument.

I don't know what you expect from him here. He isn't Verlander. He isn't Kershaw. Only in a Philadelphia bar could you get away with suggesting that he is.

His HRA in your league is a career norm (since you are playing at CB, the park factor doesn't affect comparison to RL). His K/W is career norm (even after you tweeked). He goes 6+ innings a start. Normal. Again, I don't know what can reasonably be expected.

BABIP needs to be seen in comparison to the rest of your staff, otherwise it means nothing to an audience that only knows you have Cole Hammels and nothing more about your team.

Hammels is a nice pitcher. A number one on half the teams in baseball. He is a Top 20 guy, perhaps. To me, the definition of elite pitcher is one that you can argue as a Top 5 guy and be part of the best rotation you could possibly make. Sorry, Hammels isn't that guy.

I'm sorry but I disagree with most of this. I will say that in 2008 and the early part of his career perhaps he was held in a higher light than he should have been. He had put up some good numbers but it was still yet to be seen. However, when you look at the body of work over his career now which has been long enough he is WITHOUT QUESTION one of the elite pitchers in baseball. I would argue the opposite, since the phillies aquired Lee and Halladay Hamels has been vastly Overlooked by the national media. He has arguably been the most consistent of the three top pitchers in their rotation and while you compare his stats on there to his real life numbers take a look at his career line against him.

.237 .287 .392 .679

Thats no where close to what opponents are doing to him in my game and I do believe his BAbip is listed there and is very high compared to his career. And btw its a very good line that 98% of starters in the league would love to have. He's significantly raised his k/9 over the past three years and his whip has been very consistent hovering just above 1. He has developed a decent cutter as well. I'm sorry but if you do not believe that Hamels has developed into an even better pitcher than he was in 2008 than you have not been watching him as well as baseball over the past few years.

[BIG17EASY]

I think the disagreement has to do what what's considered elite. To one person, an elite pitcher might mean one of the five best in baseball. To another, it might mean one of the 25 best. He was 14th in MLB in pitcher WAR (say what you want about the WAR statistic) last season. To some, that's elite. To others, it's not.

I do agree that he's a better pitcher now than he was in 2008. People tend to hype up his 2008 season because he went 4-0 in five postseason starts. He was 14-10 with a 3.09 ERA in the regular season, good but not great numbers. His ERA, K/9 rate and other peripherals have been equal or better in each of the past three seasons compared to 2008.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

I'm sorry but I disagree with most of this. I will say that in 2008 and the early part of his career perhaps he was held in a higher light than he should have been. He had put up some good numbers but it was still yet to be seen. However, when you look at the body of work over his career now which has been long enough he is WITHOUT QUESTION one of the elite pitchers in baseball. I would argue the opposite, since the phillies aquired Lee and Halladay Hamels has been vastly Overlooked by the national media. He has arguably been the most consistent of the three top pitchers in their rotation and while you compare his stats on there to his real life numbers take a look at his career line against him.

.237 .287 .392 .679

Thats no where close to what opponents are doing to him in my game and I do believe his BAbip is listed there and is very high compared to his career. And btw its a very good line that 98% of starters in the league would love to have. He's significantly raised his k/9 over the past three years and his whip has been very consistent hovering just above 1. He has developed a decent cutter as well. I'm sorry but if you do not believe that Hamels has developed into an even better pitcher than he was in 2008 than you have not been watching him as well as baseball over the past few years.

Is he one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball? Without question, the answer is "No." In 2012 he was in the top 5 of 2 categories...2 shutouts got him a tie for the 4 spot there, and K/W. This does not an elite pitcher make. It makes for a very good one, but not elite. If you want to say that an All-Star = elite, then I won't argue with you on that. But I think of elite as something more than merely making the AS squad.

2012 was the first season that the Phillies had a below average defense since the 2006 season. The slash line of opposing hitters is dependent on the presence of Rollins, Utley, Victorino and others playing prime defense in their primes.

My favorite quick look pitching stat is ERA + (not in OOTP, because it is not park adjusted, here).

Hamels in 2008 was 9th in that category. It's the only time he appeared in the top 10...ever. Halladay has been in the top 10 four times starting in 2008, his lowest position being 7th. Roy Halladay over the last 5 seasons is an elite pitcher. Hamels, no.

As far as what the opp slash stats are against Hamels in your game, it means nothing to any of us not knowing what the numbers for the rest of your staff look like.

In any event, judging from your post, I think I was correct in guessing that you are expecting Roy Halladay performance from a player who is not of Roy Halladay caliber.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

I'm sorry but if you do not believe that Hamels has developed into an even better pitcher than he was in 2008 than you have not been watching him as well as baseball over the past few years.

I have, and I don't think he has developed into a better pitcher. I think he is pretty much the same....a real good pitcher, but not an elite pitcher that deserves comparisons to Steve Carlton.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by phightin

From the responses I heard I think RchW may be on to something. For whatever reason Hamels not only in my game, but in general doesn't perform at a high enough level for his high stats (even before I edited them in the game). When I examine the elite pitchers in my league, especially the elite strike-out guys like Hamels, they all seem to have 3 very dominant pitches and a bit of a higher velocity. Pretty much all elite starters in the game either are strikeout guys with 3 tremendous pitches or have average stuff with about 6-7 different ok pitches and decent movement and control ratings. The ratings for all his pitches there correctly reflect what they are in the engine. I gave him an elite changeup to reflect real life etc. For whatever reason and its just a guess but maybe the pitch combination that Hamels has do not work and he needs 3 dominant pitches instead of one very good pitch, one decent pitch, and two average pitches.

My plan is basically to raise Hamels cutter, and fastball to very good levels. He doesn't use his curve that much IRL and I already raised it a bit so Im not gonna touch it. I will have to probably lower his control and movement a bit so that his era doesnt become ridiculously low. I already raised his control I will lower it back down.

I diddled around with player creation and it seems clear that the statistical input for Hamels in your first screenshot is the source of the strange ratings. I created a player made sure that all ratings were set as your Hamels is. It produced an 18 14 18 result. However when I plugged in his 2012 stats it came out to 15 12 14. I still think that's a little high on the stuff but it is more believable.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Is he one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball? Without question, the answer is "No." In 2012 he was in the top 5 of 2 categories...2 shutouts got him a tie for the 4 spot there, and K/W. This does not an elite pitcher make. It makes for a very good one, but not elite. If you want to say that an All-Star = elite, then I won't argue with you on that. But I think of elite as something more than merely making the AS squad.

2012 was the first season that the Phillies had a below average defense since the 2006 season. The slash line of opposing hitters is dependent on the presence of Rollins, Utley, Victorino and others playing prime defense in their primes.

My favorite quick look pitching stat is ERA + (not in OOTP, because it is not park adjusted, here).

Hamels in 2008 was 9th in that category. It's the only time he appeared in the top 10...ever. Halladay has been in the top 10 four times starting in 2008, his lowest position being 7th. Roy Halladay over the last 5 seasons is an elite pitcher. Hamels, no.

As far as what the opp slash stats are against Hamels in your game, it means nothing to any of us not knowing what the numbers for the rest of your staff look like.

In any event, judging from your post, I think I was correct in guessing that you are expecting Roy Halladay performance from a player who is not of Roy Halladay caliber.

I never said I expected him to be Carlton or put up Halladay numbers like he did in his prime years. I simply said I wanted him to produce his career norms. It's obvious you dont like philadelphia fans which is fine but in this case simple statistics refute your entire argument. You try to make the point that Hamels would be a #1 on only half the teams in the MLB? Again look at his career numbers and tell me where you're getting this? He would easily be a #1 on 65-70% of the teams in the league.

                                                                                                                                                       
Year   Age  Tm  Lg  W  L W-L%  ERA   G  GS GF CG SHO SV     IP    H   R  ER  HR  BB IBB   SO HBP BK WP   BF ERA+  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB  Awards
2006    22 PHI  NL  9  8 .529 4.08  23  23  0  0   0  0  132.1  117  66  60  19  48   4  145   3  0  5  558  115 1.247 8.0  1.3  3.3  9.9          3.02
2007    23 PHI  NL 15  5 .750 3.39  28  28  0  2   0  0  183.1  163  72  69  25  43   4  177   3  0  5  743  135 1.124 8.0  1.2  2.1  8.7  4.12 ASCYA-6
2008    24 PHI  NL 14 10 .583 3.09  33  33  0  2   2  0  227.1  193  89  78  28  53   7  196   1  0  0  914  141 1.082 7.6  1.1  2.1  7.8          3.70
2009    25 PHI  NL 10 11 .476 4.32  32  32  0  2   2  0  193.2  206  95  93  24  43   4  168   5  0  1  814   97 1.286 9.6  1.1  2.0  7.8          3.91
2010    26 PHI  NL 12 11 .522 3.06  33  33  0  1   0  0  208.2  185  74  71  26  61   5  211   8  0  3  856  133 1.179 8.0  1.1  2.6  9.1          3.46
2011    27 PHI  NL 14  9 .609 2.79  32  31  0  3   0  0  216.0  169  68  67  19  44   2  194   5  3  3  850  137 0.986 7.0  0.8  1.8  8.1  4.41 ASCYA-5
2012    28 PHI  NL 17  6 .739 3.05  31  31  0  2   2  0  215.1  190  80  73  24  52   3  216   3  2  3  867  131 1.124 7.9  1.0  2.2  9.0  4.15 ASCYA-8
7 Yrs              91 60 .603 3.34 212 211  0 12   6  0 1376.2 1223 544 511 165 344  29 1307  28  5 20 5602  126 1.138 8.0  1.1  2.2  8.5          3.80
162 Game Avg.      15 10 .603 3.34  34  34  0  2   1  0    221  197  87  82  27  55   5  210   5  1  3  901  126 1.138 8.0  1.1  2.2  8.5          3.80

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 11/27/2012.

If you're going to make the argument that Hamels isnt "elite". Than neither is Hernandez, Price, Cain, Weaver, Dickey, Sabathia, Strasburg, etc because his career stats are in the same discussion as all of them. And also if we're talking top 5 pitchers in baseball he's finished 8th, 5th and 6th in the Cy Young Voting basically half his career so someone definitley thinks he is or at least very close.

Also if your ERA drops and your K/9 goes up a full point over the course of your career how have you not improved? Unless he had the all-time greatest defense behind him in the history of the MLB I would say that's a pretty clear indictator of improvement since 2008.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

My take on Hammels' in 2008 was that he did have potential, but it is yet to be seen how he grows. Philly fan, in general, is a myopic breed. People I spoke to were already saying Hammels was going to have a career like Steve Carlton...he was better than Carlton! Why? Because he was their guy and that's how hometown folks relate to their hometown guys when the local media heaps praises upon praises.

Hammels has not developed into a better pitcher than 2008. If you could take 5 SPs from 2012 to make the rotation of your choosing, if you chose Hammels as one of them you have not made the best rotation...he isn't in the argument.

Based on his career numbers that I just posted what potential "did he have that is yet to be seen." A possible Hall of Fame Career if his numbers stay close to what they have been so far? I'm curious.

I honestly do not need to post anymore or waste my time as you clearly have a problem with philadelphia sports in general and there are enough intelligent baseball people on this site to know how pointless it is.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by RchW

I diddled around with player creation and it seems clear that the statistical input for Hamels in your first screenshot is the source of the strange ratings. I created a player made sure that all ratings were set as your Hamels is. It produced an 18 14 18 result. However when I plugged in his 2012 stats it came out to 15 12 14. I still think that's a little high on the stuff but it is more believable.

RchW Im curious to know how the guy performed if you had time to test it out. Do you possibly think that it may come down to the fact that his pitch assorsement really only has one very dominant pitch and three other average to ok ones? It's strange because I'm finding the guys with high strike out totals tend to have three very dominant pitches so I was just wondering.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by phightin

RchW Im curious to know how the guy performed if you had time to test it out. Do you possibly think that it may come down to the fact that his pitch assorsement really only has one very dominant pitch and three other average to ok ones? It's strange because I'm finding the guys with high strike out totals tend to have three very dominant pitches so I was just wondering.

Sorry I didn't do any testing.

I think we are finding out that OOTP's game engine puts a lot of the result on pitches vs pitcher ratings. I was already seeing this but in my current season I'll look a little closer at who performs vs their pitch ratings.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

Based on his career numbers that I just posted what potential "did he have that is yet to be seen." A possible Hall of Fame Career if his numbers stay close to what they have been so far? I'm curious.

I honestly do not need to post anymore or waste my time as you clearly have a problem with philadelphia sports in general and there are enough intelligent baseball people on this site to know how pointless it is.

I don't hate Philly fan, but you are displaying typical Philly Myopia. He pitched for my team! He is great!

I never said he sucks. Cole Hammels is a damn good pitcher. But elite? Nope.

You reference a 5th place CY finish as his best showing. What about the 9 different players that actually won in those five seasons?

Only Philly fan could compare Hamels to Sabathia or Price and expect to be taken seriously. And then Philly fan would attack the person who disagrees with such a purely home town argument as not offering intelligent discussion (Pot, meet Kettle).

My top 5 pitchers over the last 5 years (listed alphabetically):

Halladay
Kershaw
Lee
Lincecum
Verlander

Give it your best shot to argue Hamels over any of those. That you had the opportunity to watch Lee and Halladay perform surgical clinics night in and night out (not to mention Oswalt who I put above Hamels) but cling to this love for the one guy that stayed healthy this year for you shows your argument is based on nothing but emotion. Which is my WHOLE point.

The OOTP engine is fine. You just think Hamels is better than he really is.

You can't argue him top 5. You can't argue him top 10. You have to argue to get him into the top 20. Not elite in my book.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I don't hate Philly fan, but you are displaying typical Philly Myopia. He pitched for my team! He is great!

I never said he sucks. Cole Hammels is a damn good pitcher. But elite? Nope.

You reference a 5th place CY finish as his best showing. What about the 9 different players that actually won in those five seasons?

Only Philly fan could compare Hamels to Sabathia or Price and expect to be taken seriously. And then Philly fan would attack the person who disagrees with such a purely home town argument as not offering intelligent discussion (Pot, meet Kettle).

My top 5 pitchers over the last 5 years (listed alphabetically):

Halladay
Kershaw
Lee
Lincecum
Verlander

Give it your best shot to argue Hamels over any of those. That you had the opportunity to watch Lee and Halladay perform surgical clinics night in and night out (not to mention Oswalt who I put above Hamels) but cling to this love for the one guy that stayed healthy this year for you shows your argument is based on nothing but emotion. Which is my WHOLE point.

The OOTP engine is fine. You just think Hamels is better than he really is.

You can't argue him top 5. You can't argue him top 10. You have to argue to get him into the top 20. Not elite in my book.

Your stating an opinion over facts. Post stats that clearly show he has not been a top 10 pitcher over the past few years. And the fact that you make a claim that no one can argue Hamels in a top 10 let alone a top 20 disucssion for pitchers over the last few years in the MLB is an absolute joke.

Cant compare him to Price? Price is certainly elite and had a tremendous season in 2010 followed by a solid season in 2011 and another tremendous season in 12. Hamels has been very good over a longer duration throughout his entire career. They are certainly in the same discussion. I could do the same with most of the other elite pitchers as well.

Hamels and Sabathia you're joking right? Here's Sabathias career numbers:

                                                                                                                                                                 
Year   Age  Tm  Lg   W   L W-L%  ERA   G  GS GF CG SHO SV     IP    H    R  ER  HR  BB IBB   SO HBP BK WP    BF ERA+  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB        Awards
2001    20 CLE  AL  17   5 .773 4.39  33  33  0  0   0  0  180.1  149   93  88  19  95   1  171   7  3  7   763  102 1.353 7.4  0.9  4.7  8.5  1.80         RoY-2
2002    21 CLE  AL  13  11 .542 4.37  33  33  0  2   0  0  210.0  198  109 102  17  88   2  149   1  3  6   891  100 1.362 8.5  0.7  3.8  6.4                1.69
2003    22 CLE  AL  13   9 .591 3.60  30  30  0  2   1  0  197.2  190   85  79  19  66   3  141   6  2  4   832  122 1.295 8.7  0.9  3.0  6.4  2.14            AS
2004    23 CLE  AL  11  10 .524 4.12  30  30  0  1   1  0  188.0  176   90  86  20  72   3  139   7  1  1   787  106 1.319 8.4  1.0  3.4  6.7  1.93            AS
2005    24 CLE  AL  15  10 .600 4.03  31  31  0  1   0  0  196.2  185   92  88  19  62   1  161   7  0  7   823  104 1.256 8.5  0.9  2.8  7.4                2.60
2006    25 CLE  AL  12  11 .522 3.22  28  28  0  6   2  0  192.2  182   83  69  17  44   3  172   7  0  3   802  139 1.173 8.5  0.8  2.1  8.0                3.91
2007    26 CLE  AL  19   7 .731 3.21  34  34  0  4   1  0  241.0  238   94  86  20  37   1  209   8  0  1   975  141 1.141 8.9  0.7  1.4  7.8  5.65 ASCYA-1MVP-14
2008    27 TOT MLB  17  10 .630 2.70  35  35  0 10   5  0  253.0  223   85  76  19  59   1  251   7  2  2  1023  156 1.115 7.9  0.7  2.1  8.9  4.25    CYA-5MVP-6
2008    27 CLE  AL   6   8 .429 3.83  18  18  0  3   2  0  122.1  117   54  52  13  34   1  123   3  2  1   507  111 1.234 8.6  1.0  2.5  9.0                3.62
2008    27 MIL  NL  11   2 .846 1.65  17  17  0  7   3  0  130.2  106   31  24   6  25   0  128   4  0  1   516  255 1.003 7.3  0.4  1.7  8.8                5.12
2009    28 NYY  AL  19   8 .704 3.37  34  34  0  2   1  0  230.0  197   96  86  18  67   7  197   9  0  5   938  137 1.148 7.7  0.7  2.6  7.7  2.94   CYA-4MVP-21
2010    29 NYY  AL  21   7 .750 3.18  34  34  0  2   0  0  237.2  209   92  84  20  74   6  197   7  1  8   970  136 1.191 7.9  0.8  2.8  7.5  2.66 ASCYA-3MVP-13
2011    30 NYY  AL  19   8 .704 3.00  33  33  0  3   1  0  237.1  230   87  79  17  61   4  230   7  1  2   985  143 1.226 8.7  0.6  2.3  8.7  3.77 ASCYA-4MVP-14
2012    31 NYY  AL  15   6 .714 3.38  28  28  0  2   0  0  200.0  184   89  75  22  44   2  197   8  1  4   833  124 1.140 8.3  1.0  2.0  8.9  4.48            AS
12 Yrs             191 102 .652 3.50 383 383  0 35  12  0 2564.1 2361 1095 998 227 769  34 2214  81 14 50 10622  125 1.221 8.3  0.8  2.7  7.8                2.88
162 Game Avg.       17   9 .652 3.50  34  34  0  3   1  0    228  210   97  89  20  68   3  197   7  1  4   943  125 1.221 8.3  0.8  2.7  7.8                2.88
                                                                                                                                                                 
CLE (8 yrs)        106  71 .599 3.83 237 237  0 19   7  0 1528.2 1435  700 650 144 498  15 1265  46 11 30  6380  115 1.265 8.4  0.8  2.9  7.4                2.54
NYY (4 yrs)         74  29 .718 3.22 129 129  0  9   2  0  905.0  820  364 324  77 246  19  821  31  3 19  3726  135 1.178 8.2  0.8  2.4  8.2                3.34
MIL (1 yr)          11   2 .846 1.65  17  17  0  7   3  0  130.2  106   31  24   6  25   0  128   4  0  1   516  255 1.003 7.3  0.4  1.7  8.8                5.12
                                                                                                                                                                 
AL (12 yrs)        180 100 .643 3.60 366 366  0 28   9  0 2433.2 2255 1064 974 221 744  34 2086  77 14 49 10106  122 1.232 8.3  0.8  2.8  7.7                2.80
NL (1 yr)           11   2 .846 1.65  17  17  0  7   3  0  130.2  106   31  24   6  25   0  128   4  0  1   516  255 1.003 7.3  0.4  1.7  8.8                5.12

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 11/27/2012.

Again here's Hamels

                                                                                                                                                       
Year   Age  Tm  Lg  W  L W-L%  ERA   G  GS GF CG SHO SV     IP    H   R  ER  HR  BB IBB   SO HBP BK WP   BF ERA+  WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9 SO/BB  Awards
2006    22 PHI  NL  9  8 .529 4.08  23  23  0  0   0  0  132.1  117  66  60  19  48   4  145   3  0  5  558  115 1.247 8.0  1.3  3.3  9.9          3.02
2007    23 PHI  NL 15  5 .750 3.39  28  28  0  2   0  0  183.1  163  72  69  25  43   4  177   3  0  5  743  135 1.124 8.0  1.2  2.1  8.7  4.12 ASCYA-6
2008    24 PHI  NL 14 10 .583 3.09  33  33  0  2   2  0  227.1  193  89  78  28  53   7  196   1  0  0  914  141 1.082 7.6  1.1  2.1  7.8          3.70
2009    25 PHI  NL 10 11 .476 4.32  32  32  0  2   2  0  193.2  206  95  93  24  43   4  168   5  0  1  814   97 1.286 9.6  1.1  2.0  7.8          3.91
2010    26 PHI  NL 12 11 .522 3.06  33  33  0  1   0  0  208.2  185  74  71  26  61   5  211   8  0  3  856  133 1.179 8.0  1.1  2.6  9.1          3.46
2011    27 PHI  NL 14  9 .609 2.79  32  31  0  3   0  0  216.0  169  68  67  19  44   2  194   5  3  3  850  137 0.986 7.0  0.8  1.8  8.1  4.41 ASCYA-5
2012    28 PHI  NL 17  6 .739 3.05  31  31  0  2   2  0  215.1  190  80  73  24  52   3  216   3  2  3  867  131 1.124 7.9  1.0  2.2  9.0  4.15 ASCYA-8
7 Yrs              91 60 .603 3.34 212 211  0 12   6  0 1376.2 1223 544 511 165 344  29 1307  28  5 20 5602  126 1.138 8.0  1.1  2.2  8.5          3.80
162 Game Avg.      15 10 .603 3.34  34  34  0  2   1  0    221  197  87  82  27  55   5  210   5  1  3  901  126 1.138 8.0  1.1  2.2  8.5          3.80

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 11/27/2012.

Although Sabathia is certainly elite and has put together more seasons than Hamels so far. Hamels has slightly better career numbers in ERA, WHIP, BB/9, and K/9. He also has a very similar career line to sabathia against him. Hamels is at 237 .287 .392 .679 while Sabathia's is actually at 245 .304 .374 .678.

But sabathia has so many more wins per season and is on the yankees and sportscenter all the time so he must better lol. Again you're looking foolish here with simple stats.




You also are making the claim that you wouldn't put him in the same breath over the last few years as Lee or Halladay. Halladay you have a case but if you look at numbers Hamels and Lee certainly stack up and to somehow downplay Hamels and his 2.79 ERA in 11 to Lee and Halladay that should make him less elite? They had three of the best pitchers in baseball hence why they won 100+ games.

Again you fail to understand that you're not just looking foolish in this argument because I am simply a philly fan but more so because I understand baseball and have stats to back them up. Further none outside of Lincecum who after this season I would not consider top 5 at all have won a world series. Hamels has.

I just posted stats refuting everything you just stated for the most part. I would now like to invite you to make a case and please show with stats that Cole Hamels clearly is not one of the top 10, let alone from you clearly state top 20 pitchers over the course of the past few years in baseball? If you can show me and everyone else on here that this is clearly the case I will never post on here again and will go away forever.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

You also are making the claim that you wouldn't put him in the same breath over the last few years as Lee or Halladay. Halladay you have a case but if you look at numbers Hamels and Lee certainly stack up and to somehow downplay Hamels and his 2.79 ERA in 11 to Lee and Halladay that should make him less elite? They had three of the best pitchers in baseball hence why they won 100+ games.

Again you fail to understand that you're not just looking foolish in this argument because I am simply a philly fan but more so because I understand baseball.

Comparing Lee and Hamels shows absolute man crush love for Cole, on your part. In 2011 Lee had more shut outs in a 10 day period than Cole has ever had COMPLETE GAMES in a single season! Lee's 2008 AND 2001 seasons are far superior to any Hamels has had. It is to this level that Hamels needs to reach in order to be elite. If all you do is look at raw numbers (and conveniently chop of the ERA+ figures from the stats you chose to post) then you can make a shallow argument for argument's sake.

Cliff Lee is better than Cole Hamels. As are at least 20 other pitchers. If OOTP represented Hamels as a top 5 elite pitcher then, yes, there would be something wrong with the engine.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

Comparing Lee and Hamels shows absolute man crush love for Cole, on your part. In 2011 Lee had more shut outs in a 10 day period than Cole has ever had COMPLETE GAMES in a single season! Lee's 2008 AND 2001 seasons are far superior to any Hamels has had. It is to this level that Hamels needs to reach in order to be elite. If all you do is look at raw numbers (and conveniently chop of the ERA+ figures from the stats you chose to post) then you can make a shallow argument for argument's sake.

Cliff Lee is better than Cole Hamels. As are at least 20 other pitchers. If OOTP represented Hamels as a top 5 elite pitcher then, yes, there would be something wrong with the engine.

You are saying that right now at this very moment Cliff Lee is better than Cole Hamels? Are you seriously listing complete games and shutouts over other far more important stats? Did you seriously just overlook some of Lee's very average if not bad seasons he has had over his career? Has Lee had a better career than Hamels? So far yes. If Hamels stays relatively close to the pace he is on now will he have a better overall career than Lee. Yes. Are 20 pitchers better than Cole Hamels in baseball? Again I have examined several top guys, cy young winners, elite pitchers who you claim are clearly better and they are clearly not. Again i will ask you to show me with statistics 10-20 pitchers over the last 3-4 seasons who are clearly far and away better than Hamels. I'm sure you can look at overall wins and sports center reruns to find them.

[phightin]

Here's something else that I'll throw your way. The phillies signed to hamels to the 15th highest total valued contract in baseball history.

Highest Paid Players | Cot's Baseball Contracts

Do you really think that they or most other teams in the MLB with the money to do so are wrong in their assumption? But since Hamels isnt a top 10-20 pitcher in baseball MLB execs are clearly not as smart as you. Or maybe the phillies are just that stupid and no other team would have paid him the same amount of money? But certainly MLB General Managers who know far more about how to price guys than you are me are wrong in their assumption. This contract is money every top 20-30 pitcher gets, no big deal.

I just ended this discussion forever.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

You are saying that right now at this very moment Cliff Lee is better than Cole Hamels? Are you seriously listing complete games and shutouts over other far more important stats? Did you seriously just overlook some of Lee's very average if not bad seasons he has had over his career? Has Lee had a better career than Hamels? So far yes. If Hamels stays relatively close to the pace he is on now will he have a better overall career than Lee. Yes. Are 20 pitchers better than Cole Hamels in baseball? Again I have examined several top guys, cy young winners, elite pitchers who you claim are clearly better and they are clearly not. Again i will ask you to show me with statistics 10-20 pitchers over the last 3-4 seasons who are clearly far and away better than Hamels. I'm sure you can look at overall wins and sports center reruns to find them.

And when I find them, you will change the argument to protect your juvinile Cole Crush. The context of this discussion was in regard to the last 5years. And yes, over the last 5 seasons Cliff Lee is the better pitcher. Over the last 5 seasons there are at least 20 pitchers better than Hamels, though a reasonable argument can put him in the top 20.

No reasonable person can argue that Cole Hamels has been a better pitcher than Cliff Lee over the last 5 years. And no one that actualy knows and watches baseball can do so without being a myopic homer.

Lee has 2 seasons better than any Hamels had in that time, he hasn't had a season in the last 5 years as disappointing as Cole's 2009, and his totals over those 5 years are better, also. And Hamels is as good, why?

If you want to shift the debate to best pitcher based on 2012, Hamels is not in the top 10. Hamels finished 8th in the NL CY balloting. Are you going to tell me he had a definitively better season than 11 of the 14 players that placed higher in either league? And you think OOTP should have him perform as an "elite" pitcher and because he didn't pitch as well as he does in your little Philliecentric world in your head Markus needs to recode the program?

In the real world, Cole Hamels is a number one on 15 staffs, and not a number one on 15 staffs going into 2013. That is the reality. he isn't Koufax. He isn't Carlton. He isn't even Cliff Lee.

And I am the one looking foolish here...ok.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by phightin

Here's something else that I'll throw your way. The phillies signed to hamels to the 15th highest total valued contract in baseball history.

Highest Paid Players | Cot's Baseball Contracts

Do you really think that they or most other teams in the MLB with the money to do so are wrong in their assumption? But since Hamels isnt a top 10-20 pitcher in baseball MLB execs are clearly not as smart as you. Or maybe the phillies are just that stupid and no other team would have paid him the same amount of money? But certainly MLB General Managers who know far more about how to price guys than you are me are wrong in their assumption. This contract is money every top 20-30 pitcher gets, no big deal.

I just ended this discussion forever.

Note After further thought I feel like rubbing it in more and continuing this laughable debate. Being the fantasy baseball junkie that I am here is a list of top pitchers for 2013. Still early but this one is from espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/ba...ge=60F6I120927

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...drafts/page/16



Mr. Hamels is at 10 and 7 respectively and from a fantasy standpoint ranked 10th last year. Are you going to look at this list and make a case that every guy in front of him and behind him is clearly better? Granted fantasy baseball is its own world of stats but you're going to say without question he doesn't belong in that discussion with the others there. Here's another link and I think this one may help you the most Delusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

Here's something else that I'll throw your way. The phillies signed to hamels to the 15th highest total valued contract in baseball history.

Highest Paid Players | Cot's Baseball Contracts

Do you really think that they or most other teams in the MLB with the money to do so are wrong in their assumption? But since Hamels isnt a top 10-20 pitcher in baseball MLB execs are clearly not as smart as you. Or maybe the phillies are just that stupid and no other team would have paid him the same amount of money? But certainly MLB General Managers who know far more about how to price guys than you are me are wrong in their assumption. This contract is money every top 20-30 pitcher gets, no big deal.

I just ended this discussion forever.

Yes, you ended the discussion about Hamels being anything close to Sabathia forever.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by phightin

Note After further thought I feel like rubbing it in more and continuing this laughable debate. Being the fantasy baseball junkie that I am here is a list of top pitchers for 2013. Still early but this one is from espn.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/ba...ge=60F6I120927

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...drafts/page/16



Mr. Hamels is at 10 and 7 respectively and from a fantasy standpoint ranked 10th last year. Are you going to look at this list and make a case that every guy in front of him and behind him is clearly better?

I have never met anyone that actually knows baseball use fantasy stats to argue real baseball. I still haven't.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

And when I find them, you will change the argument to protect your juvinile Cole Crush. The context of this discussion was in regard to the last 5years. And yes, over the last 5 seasons Cliff Lee is the better pitcher. Over the last 5 seasons there are at least 20 pitchers better than Hamels, though a reasonable argument can put him in the top 20.

No reasonable person can argue that Cole Hamels has been a better pitcher than Cliff Lee over the last 5 years. And no one that actualy knows and watches baseball can do so without being a myopic homer.

Lee has 2 seasons better than any Hamels had in that time, he hasn't had a season in the last 5 years as disappointing as Cole's 2009, and his totals over those 5 years are better, also. And Hamels is as good, why?

If you want to shift the debate to best pitcher based on 2012, Hamels is not in the top 10. Hamels finished 8th in the NL CY balloting. Are you going to tell me he had a definitively better season than 11 of the 14 players that placed higher in either league? And you think OOTP should have him perform as an "elite" pitcher and because he didn't pitch as well as he does in your little Philliecentric world in your head Markus needs to recode the program?

In the real world, Cole Hamels is a number one on 15 staffs, and not a number one on 15 staffs going into 2013. That is the reality. he isn't Koufax. He isn't Carlton. He isn't even Cliff Lee.

And I am the one looking foolish here...ok.

Let me further break it down for you. Is Cole Hamels better than Cliff Lee over the past few years? I never said he was. Does he belong in the same discussion absolutely. the same with most of the other top pitchers. If you look at overall numbers outside of either Verlander or Kershaw. Hamels is right there with all of them. Again i asked you to prove your point with stats and you cant. You simply call me a myopic homer. I showed you clearly that Hamels is on the same level, if not better over the past few years, as Sabathia something you called "ridiculous". Again show with me stats how Sabathia and others are clearly better and I will go away forever. I know you cant thats why I keep asking you to do so.

[phightin]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

I have never met anyone that actually knows baseball use fantasy stats to argue real baseball. I still haven't.

So prove that all the other pitchers in front and behind him are clearly better. Prove that there's 10-20 pitchers in those links that I posted that are far and away superior to him. Im waiting.

PS while youre at it considering Hamels could arguably be the front of the rotation guy for the yankees Im curious to hear the 15 staffs in the mlb he wouldn't be a #1 on. Please list all of them.

IMO Hamels would clearly be a #1 on about 22 staffs if you include some top teams like the yankees where you could easily argue he would be their #1 guy the list goes up close to 25. Please though list all the teams he wouldnt be a #1 on right now and we can all have a good laugh. Im sure many her already have at your expense.