Online League Free Agency: Let's Improve It

[rujasu]

Originally Posted by Buane

My supply and demand:

Supply = money available (cash on hand, budget space, etc.)
Demand = what a GM is willing to pay a particular player

Why are we talking about cash on hand as being a part of supply and demand anyway? The amount of money the buyer isn't a part of supply and demand per se. Should be more like this:

Supply = good players available on the market
Demand = what a GM is willing to pay for a good player

Now, that demand might be affected by the GM's available money. If I have a lot of money, I'm willing to spend more money to get something I want. But in the cases being discussed in this thread, the free agent players are assuming that demand will change based on the GM's money, when that's not always true, particularly when that money is merely cash on hand and not recurring income. The demand might not change, though. If I can get an average shortstop for $1MM, I'm not going to pay $7MM for one even if I have $100M in cash.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Jontler

In other words, the supply of quality 1Bs will dictate how much a quality 1B gets, not the supply of money in the league.

But it doesn't work that way in real life. Salaries are driven by the degree to which teams are prepared to compete with each other in acquiring the service of a given free agent. And that is a function of the money teams have available to spend.

(For those wishing to delve more into the topic, a Google search or two should turn up published papers on the free agent market and the various factors which contribute to it. I know I've saved one or two that I've happened to come across over the years.)

[Isryion]

Originally Posted by rujasu

Why are we talking about cash on hand as being a part of supply and demand anyway? .

Because, as I understand it, the game engine has to deal with thousands of "game worlds" (more, maybe, and many more possibilities) and it tries to adjust to the financials of each world so that they're relevant and realistic to that game world. FA is part of that. It's how you get an initial request from players that matches your league's time and settings, and hopefully, your league's current financial situation, with the players own tendencies sprinkled on.

Again, you might not want it that way, but some people prefer it, as do I, because it allows for the financial system and the players in it, to adapt to their "game world" and things like inflation in that world.

I do completely understand that some people just don't want it and want things set up more like a fantasy baseball league and I would have no problem if a checkbox or something like that were included.

[cockypop]

Another one of the 'zealot's' here, with a slightly different take on this.

I'm not going to argue about supply and demand, forcing free agents to take lower deals, etc. I just think there is a programming glitch happening that shows up in online leagues with multiple day sims.

It *feels like* (so yes, this is anecdotal but all of us in this particular league have experienced this) when you make an offer to a free agent and the response is "not enough money" that offer is not recorded or saved anywhere, and the subsequent behaviour suggests that for all effects and purposes that offer never existed at all.

This is why a player asking for $22 mil (that's fine, within his rights, affected by league cash on hand, etc... not a problem) who then receives and rejects multiple offers from teams in the $12-$15 mil range (the league owners feel that's fair market value) then ends up accepting a $10 mil offer (which is frustrating to everyone).

Obviously I'm guessing here and could be wrong, but it feels like this player accepted this final, lower offer not for realistic reasons of home town, playoff chances, etc. It feels like this player accepted this offer because it was the last best offer that was made that was recorded and saved by the game engine.

So to me (and many of us zealots) the issue isn't around forcing a fix to suit just online leagues. It's that online leagues have exposed an inadvertently flawed game mechanic that can hopefully be improved without affecting anyone else.

So yeah... basically, it's be great if the game didn't completely ignore rejected offers to the degree that they never actually existed.

[subtle]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

But it doesn't work that way in real life. Salaries are driven by the degree to which teams are prepared to compete with each other in acquiring the service of a given free agent. And that is a function of the money teams have available to spend.

Maybe you should tell the Toronto Blue Jays, Seattle Mariners, or Chicago Cubs about this?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Buane

Isn't the counter-argument to this the fact that if no GM makes a player an offer greater than $3M, is that player really worth more than $3M?

Where should player worth stem from? I'd prefer it to stem from the GMs of the league and not the OOTP AI, in the case of Online Leagues.

I know that is how the game currently works. That is why I am suggesting this as an alternative.

So that's what this is actually about: you guys want to be able to lowball players and that darned AI just won't let you.

Sad. Just sad.

[The Wolf]

By the way, in the real world they call that collusion. Baseball tried it once, with catastrophic results.

[cockypop]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

So that's what this is actually about: you guys want to be able to lowball players and that darned AI just won't let you.

Sad. Just sad.

With all due respect that is not really accurate.

Yes it's true many of us in this particular league are trying to be fiscally responsible and not overpay what we think a player is worth. That's NOT the same thing as lowballing and collusion. There are other teams in the league who happily spend the cash.

It's just that a particular set of circumstances for this particular league (lots of cash, fiscally responsible ownership, week long sims) has exposed a consistent, reproducable and unrealistic behaviour in which a player will take less money from Team A simply because their offer happened to be made after the arbitrary in game point in which their demands dropped. Meanwhile Teams B, C, D and E who may have all offered more money just the day before the demands dropped are all ignored.

This is a programming issue, not a league setup or ownership behaviour issue.

Just to clarify, this isn't a one off anecdotal incident. This is the consistent pattern with most free agents in our league this offseason.

I like to think that we're trying to be the canary in the coal mine... our unique league setup has exposed a mechanical game engine glitch in how free agents process their offers. They act as if previous offers never existed.

While it might not happen as often in other leagues it doesn't mean it is completely harmless and should be ignored.

[kon6749]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

So that's what this is actually about: you guys want to be able to lowball players and that darned AI just won't let you.

Sad. Just sad.

Intelligent post.

When a mediocre player demands more money than what the top player in the league is making, and wants 8 years on top of it. Then there's a problem. It's not black and white, which is why the majority of us are attempting to have an intelligent conversation surrounding the issue and not just passing it off as a "feature of the game".

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by cockypop

Another one of the 'zealot's' here, with a slightly different take on this.

I'm not going to argue about supply and demand, forcing free agents to take lower deals, etc. I just think there is a programming glitch happening that shows up in online leagues with multiple day sims.

It *feels like* (so yes, this is anecdotal but all of us in this particular league have experienced this) when you make an offer to a free agent and the response is "not enough money" that offer is not recorded or saved anywhere, and the subsequent behaviour suggests that for all effects and purposes that offer never existed at all.

This is why a player asking for $22 mil (that's fine, within his rights, affected by league cash on hand, etc... not a problem) who then receives and rejects multiple offers from teams in the $12-$15 mil range (the league owners feel that's fair market value) then ends up accepting a $10 mil offer (which is frustrating to everyone).

Obviously I'm guessing here and could be wrong, but it feels like this player accepted this final, lower offer not for realistic reasons of home town, playoff chances, etc. It feels like this player accepted this offer because it was the last best offer that was made that was recorded and saved by the game engine.

So to me (and many of us zealots) the issue isn't around forcing a fix to suit just online leagues. It's that online leagues have exposed an inadvertently flawed game mechanic that can hopefully be improved without affecting anyone else.

So yeah... basically, it's be great if the game didn't completely ignore rejected offers to the degree that they never actually existed.

I think cockypop has hit on the real issue here, such as there is. If you offer a player who wants $22M/yr a contract worth $15M/yr and he rejects it, then for all intents and purposes that team has never bid on him at all. What the game should do, at least in the early stages of the offseason, is enable the player AI to say "I'm not interested right now, but I'll keep it in mind", so that the offer remains "on the table". In this way, if the player's demands drop since no one else made an acceptable offer, that earlier offer is still in play and can get accepted.

Now, this also means that if you offer a player and he gives you that message, if you fill that roster spot with someone else that the player must remember to formally withdraw that offer, lest the FA accept it when his services are no longer wanted.

I'm pretty sure someone else said this earlier, but this seems to me to be the crux of the matter.

[olivertheorem]

Originally Posted by kon6749

When a mediocre player demands more money than what the top player in the league is making, and wants 8 years on top of it. Then there's a problem. It's not black and white, which is why the majority of us are attempting to have an intelligent conversation surrounding the issue and not just passing it off as a "feature of the game".

If this is happening as designed right now, then it means that players need to have a better baseline value of how they fit into the league's talent base. Then, if there is a ton of cash on hand, they can demand more, but an average player really shouldn't be asking for more than the highest-paid player, regardless of how much cash is on hand. Well, unless his greed is through the roof. :P

[stevew]

It would be nice to implement a "standing offer" or a "timed offer" feature. "If you'll take 15m/4 years, please call me" vs "I'll give you 19M for 6years, but I'm only going to give you 9 days to decide. Don't shop this offer"

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by cockypop

Yes it's true many of us in this particular league are trying to be fiscally responsible and not overpay what we think a player is worth.

That's just about what Steinbrenner said.

"The single biggest reality you guys have to face up to is collusion. You stole $280 million from the players, and the players are unified to a man around that issue, because you got caught and many of you are still involved." - Commissioner Fay Vincent

You guys ought to be ashamed.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by kon6749

When a mediocre player demands more money than what the top player in the league is making, and wants 8 years on top of it. Then there's a problem.

Yes, there is. You guys are sitting on waaaay to much money and yet you still want to lowball the players and that pesky AI - darn it - just won't let you. So you came here to try to persuade your way around the AI and the minimum bid.

Sad. Truly sad.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

If you offer a player who wants $22M/yr a contract worth $15M/yr and he rejects it, then for all intents and purposes that team has never bid on him at all. What the game should do, at least in the early stages of the offseason, is enable the player AI to say "I'm not interested right now, but I'll keep it in mind", so that the offer remains "on the table". In this way, if the player's demands drop since no one else made an acceptable offer, that earlier offer is still in play and can get accepted.

Unless it's a lowball offer, in which case the player should not only forget the offer completely, but also send an insulting message to the owner who is trying to pull that crap.

[MrGreenGenes]

Epic troll job, The Wolf. It's very impressive.

[cockypop]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You guys ought to be ashamed.

Really? This is the level of enagagement I should expect from senior board members when taking the time to carefully craft what I felt was a calm, non-inflammatory, clear and concise explanation of a possible bug? I've lurked for years and the one time I come online for help I get insulted. Thanks.

It has nothing to do with owner behaviour, whether you or anyone else thinks there is collusion or not.

I think there is a flaw in the game mechanics.

I think the unique circumstances of our league has called attention to it.

I hope it gets fixed.

That is all.

[21C]

If someone could type out a clear and concise version of what they are requesting then I will add it to the Beta Board as a Suggestion.

From there, it will be up to Markus to decide if it is an easy (or valid) thing to add or not.

[stevew]

What is the acceptable level of trolling that is permitted around here?

[Buane]

Wow. You did it. You figured it out, OOTP Development forums poster The Wolf.

The online league that I run, the league that I have run for the last 4+ years, that I have poured countless hours into creating, improving, shaping, and researching...an online league where I've paid $400 dollars on plane tickets to attend cross-country meetups with its members and spark new friendships, a league that's allowed me to become friends with people on different continents - this online league where I have never even taken charge of any team so that I'd be able to better gauge the direction and the needs of the league as its Commissioner...this league is now at the point where my only goal, MY SUPREME GOAL is just to FINALLY have a system that allows ALL my league members to LOWBALL ALL THE FREE AGENTS and collude with one and other to screw over the imaginary players union! You cracked the case! Xanadu!


Kindly take your smug, condescending, internet-know-it-all attitude to some other thread where nobody has the composition skills to call you on your bull****. Grownups are talking in this one.