untenability of day to day play

[billybuck22]

I've bought three versions of this game over the years and after playing through game by game almost four seasons of 13, I've been forced to accept this game is not designed for playing out games and managing on a day to day basis and that I won't continue to reward a disingenous marketing strategy with my money.


It's a game for numbers crunchers only and works well enough simming a season or seasons at a time I suppose, but does not hold up if you like in game strategy or even looking at daily box scores. Setting aside the understandable difficulty in programming baseballs strategy nuances, two issues, easy to fix, drive me from the game and their occurence through all three versions I"ve bought show me that the features to play out games or the hook of managing a team on a daily basis are merely marketing ploys.


1) Extra innings- In almost four seasons of playing out nearly every game, the ridiculousness of the 15 inning game and the game machinations to manufacture it are an interest killer. I would estimate that 85 percent of extra inning games go exactly 15 innings, 10 percent go 14, and 5 percent go 18. I've yet to have a game I've played out go any other number of extra innings. I can tell starting about the 7th or 8th inning when a game is going to go 14,15 or 18 innings.


It's just a game killer when the excitement of extra innings becomes such a dramatic manipulation. It's laughable how competent relief pitchers become in extra innings.


2) insanely clutch hitting pitchers- Again, an issue in every version I've bought. It is so ridiculous how well pitchers hit with men in scoring position that I've resorted to intentionally walking pitchers, even moving a second man into scoring position based on the odds.


I believe I've seen comments in the past by the developers about their disdain for having the pitchers hit. I could be wrong on my rememberance, but the fact that this easy-fix issue remains speaks volumes anyway. The joy of managing National League style ball is completely killed by this. I find myself relieved when I come to road interleague games, a feeling I hate.


Anyway, these are the two main points that drive me away from this game. Though, the fact that the ratings inversion, especially among coaches and scouts, where the highest ranked perform the poorest and vice versa is another seemingly easy fix that has plagued the game in every version.


I guess I've logged back into the forum after not posting in so long is largely out of frustration. I long for a game I can play as a day to day manager and engross myself in baseball game strategy. The fact I've bought this game three times and devoted so much time to it 3 times is evidence of that.


Mainly however, I post this as a warning to those considering buying the game to play in the fashion I've mentioned. Playing arcade games in manage only mode are just as, even more realistic. Most importantly though I think the developers need to seriously consider how inappropriate it is to market a game on features that don't work and aren't intended to work.


If there aren't enough number crunching, yearly simulators out there to turn a profit, you need to put some effort into making the game work for the people that will get you to the financial finish line or move on to something else.

[Pacoheadley]

I have not experienced number 1 or number 2, at all. Your numbers in number 1 are completely ridiculous and made up (85%?), and this is most definitely an issue of either small sample size, or you thinking you noticed a pattern and getting pissed at it without any data to back it up. Markus has said that there is no cheap AI in this game, in either the catch-up form, or AI that tries to make certain situations happen, and why would he code that in anyway?

The same thing with number 2, can you try getting some actual data to back up your claim? I have never noticed this at all, and there is no in game ratings boost to certain people in clutch situations. There is no special mechanic for pitchers, as they all have batting ratings just like normal players and can be switched to a field position.

[GlennCraven]

I just started with OOTP (1.5 seasons into 13) and don't play enough games with National League rules to know how clutch the pitchers are at the plate with men on base. I haven't noticed it in the few inter-league games my Royals play against NL clubs.

On the subject of extra-innings, I just hit the All-Star break in my second season. During the first "half" of this season, Kansas City has gone to extra-innings seven times in 89 games. (Including every game of a three-game series in Seattle at one point.)

It's an incredibly small sample, but the innings played in those games were: 12, 10, 10, 15*, 13*, 14*, 10. (*=Seattle series)

In this tiny sample, it would seem that I'm having the exact opposite experience from you regarding extra-inning games. If 85 percent go 15 in your experience, so far this season only slightly less than 15 percent of my extra-inning games have gone 15. And in your experience 100 percent of extra-inning games go 14, 15 or 18 frames (and no other number), but in this brief example, over 70 percent of my games have gone 10, 12 or 13 innings -- numbers of innings that you reportedly never see.

Just for the sake of offering someone else's experience with OOTP.

[billybuck22]

Do you play out your games? I think almost four full seasons is a pretty big sample size. I admit the 85% thing is a guestimate, but it is not at all far off. I stand by how ridiculous it is. If you go into extra innings it is a near lock you are going 15 innings and it's predictable from the 7th or 8th inning on.

Again, you must not play out your games often or have gotten very far to not see the pitcher clutch hitting thing. It's been there in all 3 versions I"ve bought. You have a much better chance getting out of the inning by walking the pitcher. Four seasons is long enough to see a trend and I do remember discussions of this in the past on this forum with previous versions.

It's indisputable; pitchers are much better with runners in scoring position than any position player, regardless of rankings. If you play out the games long enough, you can't help but notice how glaring it is.

[billybuck22]

Wow, Craven. It's interesting about your Seattle series. I play as Seattle.

[madJ]

Originally Posted by billybuck22

Wow, Craven. It's interesting about your Seattle series. I play as Seattle.

Maybe that's the whole problem.

[khucke]

I just checked my league's current season after some 500 games, here are the extra innings numbers:

10: 25
11: 16
12: 4
13: 0
14: 3
15: 1
16: 0
17: 0
18: 2
19: 0
20: 1

If anything there seems too many 10 or 11 inning games. Of course a lot depends on the offensive level of a league. Low scoring leagues produce more and longer extra inning games than high scoring leagues.

[GlennCraven]

I manage all of Kansas City's games, and don't even sim-out the late innings of a lopsided game or anything.

And you can check the stats on NL pitchers' hitting prowess pretty easily. They have recorded hitting statistics including splits, just like a position player.

In my world, among NL pitchers with at least 20 ABs by the All-Star break, the top-15 hitting pitchers include (AVG/AVG-RISP):

-- Kyle Lohse (.321/.500)
-- Jorge de la Rosa (.308/.125)
-- Artie Savage (.303/.429)
-- Mat Latos (.300/.250)
-- Julio Teheran (.267/.167)
-- Mark Rzepczynski (.250/.333)
-- Josh Collmenter (.243/.143)
-- John Lannan (.242/.429)
-- Randall Delgado (.241/.400)
-- Matt Cain (.226/.429)
-- Adam Wainwright (.216/.125)
-- Ryan Dempster (.211/.200)
-- Stephen Strasburg (.211/.125)
-- Tyler Chatwood (.185/.250)
-- Anibal Sanchez (.182/.250)

While a couple of those guys look like Babe Ruth when there are runs to be driven in, bear in mind those numbers aren't over a very large number of ABs. Lohse's .500, for instance, is 3-for-6 -- not 12-for-24 or anything. Rzepczynski is 1-for-3 to achieve that .333. If he fails in his next two opportunities to drive in a run, he's suddenly hitting .200 with RISP. ... I believe Delgado had the most ABs with RISP and was 4-for-10.

All told and ballparking it, I'd say those guys are hitting roughly a combined .275 with RISP -- not a batting average that would frighten me into walking every pitcher who comes up with ducks on the pond. Especially since these are the best-hitting pitchers in the league currently.

[billybuck22]

I don't really monitor the box scores of other games in the league, but I don't doubt the extra inning glitch is non-evident in simulated games. I'm only speaking of played out games.

It's an interesting point about lower offense leagues having longer extra inning games. It's something I hadn't considered. I do have my play set to 1977 level. Offense is definitely less and in fact I'd come to the conclusion I was wanting to adjust that in the next off season. However, again, it is unavoidable to notice how absolutely inept offenses become in extra innings, until the 15th inning.

[Tigers13]

I play out all my team's games and am not noticing that about extra innings. This past season my team played 14 extra inning games and not one was 14, 15 or 18 innings. The season before 13 games and only 1 15 inning game.

[billybuck22]

Craven, Thanks for the info. I think your small sample size there adds fuel to my fire. I think if you add a large sample size and look especially at the weakest hitting pitchers it would be even more disproportionate.

There are alot of scrub position players, and even quality ones, who would have sold their soul to be able to hit .275 with runners in scoring position.

[khucke]

Can you give a precise count of your extra inninga games and their length in a season? How big is your sample? In my league roughly 10% of games go into extra innings, so a season's worth of some 16 games for your team is not really a sufficient sample size.


On your second point I looked up my league's pitcher's batting in close and late situations (this is just one definition of clutch): 35 hits in 183 at bats for a .191 batting average (league BA .265). This seems a tad high, but could be explained in a way that the AI tends to keep the better-hitting pitchers in close games and replacing the bad-hitting ones with pinch hitters more often.

[Tigers13]

Originally Posted by billybuck22

It's a game for numbers crunchers only and works well enough simming a season or seasons at a time I suppose, but does not hold up if you like in game strategy or even looking at daily box scores. Setting aside the understandable difficulty in programming baseballs strategy nuances, two issues, easy to fix, drive me from the game and their occurence through all three versions I"ve bought show me that the features to play out games or the hook of managing a team on a daily basis are merely marketing ploys.

On this point, after playing out 80 seasons of the same league on a daily basis over the last 6 years I couldn't disagree more. I check the box score of each game and manage my team, and while there are bugs there's nothing major that keeps me from playing more.

[billybuck22]

Khucke,

As I mentioned, my only concern is games I play out. How the computer simulates the other games is a concern I've gotten over and pay no attention to.

Having said that, is there a way to find extra inning games other than pulling up every box score. The schedule screen only shows score and win or loss.

Also, how do you pull up RISP stats for pitchers vs. position players? I've never taken the time to figure out how to sort or filter stats like that.

[billybuck22]

Originally Posted by Tigers13

On this point, after playing out 80 seasons of the same league on a daily basis over the last 6 years I couldn't disagree more. I check the box score of each game and manage my team, and while there are bugs there's nothing major that keeps me from playing more.

I've learned to accept or not pay attention to alot of things. It's just these two issues have really gotten in the way big time. Just sucked the joy right out.

The two previous versions I bought I let things like AI roster and minor league management/lineup/ in game decisions get to me. I'd win or make a world series in the 2nd or 3rd season, switch to simming and lose interest.

This version I was determined to not let that other stuff get to me. I made the game harder on myself and am now in my 4th season with no postseason appearance anywhere in sight, which is frustrating but the challenge keeps me interested. But. I can't look past these two issues anymore.

The unexpected drama of close games late and the in game "national league" strategy of double switches and bullpen management are what baseball is about to me.

[Tigers13]

My league is DH in both leagues so that could be one reason my extra innings end faster. I noticed a long time ago that I didn't like the way the AI handled pitchers hitting and switches and that sort of thing.

Anyway, I keep the results of all my games on a notepad so I know exactly how many extra inning games my team has played. So, I went back and checked the last 10 seasons and only 5 of 122 extra inning games went 14, 15 or 18 innings. I would recommend doing this for your league and see exactly what the results are.

[DCG12]

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads in a long time. As frustrated as I get sometimes when things are going against my team I never would suspect that Markus pre-programed the game to go certain innings at certain times.

I play out all my games. Pitchers hit. I have one league that has 26 years of history and a second league that I have been playing since OOTP 13 came out that I am in my 4th season. I used the second league to do a quick check.

I save almanacs each year so I am able to look back at scores. This season I have only played four extra inning games. 11,12,12 and 14. Looked at last year and the extra inning games where 10 innings 6 times, 11 innings twice, 13 once, 14 once, 16 once.

I don't think looking any farther back will serve a purpose so I stopped. As for pitchers hitting I have never given a pitcher an IBB and while once in a while a pitcher gets a hit in a clutch situation it's nothing that doesn't happen in real life. If anyone needs proof I will find time to peruse old box scores and stats, but for myself I don't feel the need.

[billybuck22]

Originally Posted by DCG12

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads in a long time. As frustrated as I get sometimes when things are going against my team I never would suspect that Markus pre-programed the game to go certain innings at certain times.

I play out all my games. Pitchers hit. I have one league that has 26 years of history and a second league that I have been playing since OOTP 13 came out that I am in my 4th season. I used the second league to do a quick check.

I save almanacs each year so I am able to look back at scores. This season I have only played four extra inning games. 11,12,12 and 14. Looked at last year and the extra inning games where 10 innings 6 times, 11 innings twice, 13 once, 14 once, 16 once.

I don't think looking any farther back will serve a purpose so I stopped. As for pitchers hitting I have never given a pitcher an IBB and while once in a while a pitcher gets a hit in a clutch situation it's nothing that doesn't happen in real life. If anyone needs proof I will find time to peruse old box scores and stats, but for myself I don't feel the need.

LOL. Thanks for the dismissal; but you seem to have garbled my points. Some times I win the 15 inning games and some times I don't. The point is it happens so often and is so formulaic in how the marathon games materializes that it's gotten to the point I don't even care if I win or lose the extra inning games. It doesn't matter who I throw out there, they become a stud for innings 10-14. All the drama is out of extra inning games and enjoyment of close late games is clouded with dread of the recurring formula. It also has affected the way I handle the middle innings. I've let games get away from me because I can't go too far into my bullpen just in case.

As far as hitting pitchers go. My point was not that pitchers never get a hit with men in scoring position. It is that in played out games they do it with preposterous frequency. My pitchers included. In fact, in combination with the ineptitude of pinch hitters, it makes more sense to let your pitcher bat, even if you are going to remove him to start the next inning.

You also conveniently jumbled my "agenda" charge. It wasn't about the extra inning games. It seems perhaps that could somehow be a Seattle glitch. My theory behind pitchers turning into Tony Perez with men in scoring position involves what I would call a stick in the eye of baseball traditionalists. It may seem far fetched, but I don't doubt the insidious nature of DH lovers for a second. At the very least, it shows a lack of attention to in game play and thus my point that the feature is perhaps nothing more than a tacked on marketing ploy.

But, in fact I find the disputing posts here a little heartening. It didn't occur to me that these issues wouldn't be entirely obvious to anyone who played out several seasons of games. That people who play out all their games are having different results gives me hope all is not lost. Or, it could just be a knee jerk defense of the game from DH-loving accountants.

[khucke]

billybuck,

go to 'Scores&Schedules', your team's line score is on top, go to opening day, and then advance from day to day, you can rapidly check if your game ended in some other inning than the ninth.

As for pitcher hitting in close/late. Go to a team's roster, choose
View: Batting Stats,
Position: All Pitchers,
Split: Close/Late

I hope this helps.

[madJ]

Originally Posted by DCG12

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads in a long time. As frustrated as I get sometimes when things are going against my team I never would suspect that Markus pre-programed the game to go certain innings at certain times.

I play out all my games. Pitchers hit. I have one league that has 26 years of history and a second league that I have been playing since OOTP 13 came out that I am in my 4th season. I used the second league to do a quick check.

I save almanacs each year so I am able to look back at scores. This season I have only played four extra inning games. 11,12,12 and 14. Looked at last year and the extra inning games where 10 innings 6 times, 11 innings twice, 13 once, 14 once, 16 once.

I don't think looking any farther back will serve a purpose so I stopped. As for pitchers hitting I have never given a pitcher an IBB and while once in a while a pitcher gets a hit in a clutch situation it's nothing that doesn't happen in real life. If anyone needs proof I will find time to peruse old box scores and stats, but for myself I don't feel the need.

I have to agree here. This whole thread seems to be just a try to bash the game and to accuse Markus and the others to just pick the money out of the pockets of their costumers by making false promises. After all there was still no data given to prove a point here. Even if there seems to be a pattern, 4 seasons with around 16 extra inning games each season is what I would call insufficient sample size.