Holding runners?

DoubleBacon · 05-10-2012, 02:02 AM

Can someone provide me a cheat sheet on when to hold and not to hold runners on base? It seems elementary but I often wonder if I'm doing this correctly. It seems obvious to hold most runners at first, but what if the runner is a fat catcher with a speed rating of 1? Or a pitcher?

wiggins · 05-10-2012, 11:25 AM

From what I remember reading, and the way I've been using it, is the hold rating isn't so much that the first baseman is holding the runner on, it is actually the pitcher paying close attention to the runner or using a slide step to the plate to try and keep the runner closer. I only use it when my pitcher has a poor hold rating and the runner is an excellent base stealer. Keep in mind though, when using the "hold runner" your pitchers ability will slip a bit. I always thought they should change the name of the option from "hold runner" to "keep runner close. I as you thought that it meant "holding the runner on" by the first baseman.

MizzouRah · 05-10-2012, 11:58 AM

I do it like a real life manager would. Always holding runners on when less than 2 outs and even with 2 outs if the runner is speedy. I look at the hold rating as a deception rating for the P to keep the runner guessing if he's going to throw over or not, ie keeping him closer.

Holding the runner gives him less of a jump on a hit and almost all runners are held when they are on 1B.

BIG17EASY · 05-10-2012, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggins

From what I remember reading, and the way I've been using it, is the hold rating isn't so much that the first baseman is holding the runner on, it is actually the pitcher paying close attention to the runner or using a slide step to the plate to try and keep the runner closer. I only use it when my pitcher has a poor hold rating and the runner is an excellent base stealer. Keep in mind though, when using the "hold runner" your pitchers ability will slip a bit. I always thought they should change the name of the option from "hold runner" to "keep runner close. I as you thought that it meant "holding the runner on" by the first baseman.

This is how I've been using it, but I'm not sure if I read that in the manual or just made an assumption.

DoubleBacon · 05-10-2012, 01:12 PM

Ohhhhh, okay. I get it now. I should have known better because it's an option when say a runner is on 2nd base w/ no-one on first. Thanks for the info!

awick · 05-10-2012, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggins

From what I remember reading, and the way I've been using it, is the hold rating isn't so much that the first baseman is holding the runner on, it is actually the pitcher paying close attention to the runner or using a slide step to the plate to try and keep the runner closer. I only use it when my pitcher has a poor hold rating and the runner is an excellent base stealer. Keep in mind though, when using the "hold runner" your pitchers ability will slip a bit. I always thought they should change the name of the option from "hold runner" to "keep runner close. I as you thought that it meant "holding the runner on" by the first baseman.

This is correct. Think of it as the first baseman is always holding the runner and the game option is to have the pitcher use a slide step, speed up his delivery, or otherwise pay special attention to the runner. Using the hold option will slightly decrease the pitcher's effectiveness as a pitcher but will also slightly decrease the runner's lead/jump.

It's a classic defensive tradeoff.

In my games, I almost never use it. I want to maximize my chances to get the hitter.

Lou Gehrig · 05-11-2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggins

Keep in mind though, when using the "hold runner" your pitchers ability will slip a bit.

I didn't realize this. Was this in the manual or is it through game experience? Just want to verify the "slippage" since I use this quite a bit.

awick · 05-12-2012, 12:48 PM

The OOTP in-game help file says this about the hold runner option: "This option results in slightly weaker pitching performance, but a slightly greater chance to pick off a runner."

Postman · 05-12-2012, 01:24 PM

It's called pitching from the stretch, and it does indeed affect the pitcher's effectiveness. It's easy enough to see during a game (even on TV). The pitcher changes his motion so that he doesn't kick. Rather, he just slides his front foot forward.

From the stretch a pitcher's first motion after coming set is toward the plate which is not the case with a full wind up (the first motion toward the plate is after the front foot is swung behind the foot on the rubber, and even a the slowest runner can time that). The affect is that it shortens the pitcher's delivery time so that if the runner attempts to steal, he has about a half a second to a second less time to reach his base (which is significant).

Pitchers pitch from the stretch whenever there is a threat of a runner stealing a base or of some sort of play (bunts, hit and runs, etc.). So, yes, the likelihood of the runner stealing is taken into account. The batter's skill is taken into account as well. If there are two down and a runner on first, the pitcher is at bat, and you're up by a few runs, maybe you have the pitcher focus on the batter.

One of the reasons for an intentional walk with runners at second and third is to allow the pitcher to go through his full wind up (and obviously to set up the force at every base).

cblacker · 05-12-2012, 02:26 PM

I would say it's a slide step more so than pitching from the stretch. Every pitcher goes to the stretch when runners are on (except occasionally with a runner on 3rd), but a slide step speeds up the delivery to the plate even more, while presumably lowering effectiveness slightly.

endgame · 05-12-2012, 03:16 PM

I don't have the time currently, but one aspect of holding- well, stealing period -I'd like to examine is the success rate against high hold, left-handed pitchers on steals of second. I want to believe they are slowed or reduced, but I have no data to support it and, candidly, suspect it's no different than right-handers. For that matter, should it be? I always believed, with a clearer view of first base and the lead taken, a high hold and a left-hander should reduce success rates. Thoughts?

cblacker · 05-12-2012, 04:48 PM

I don't know that you need to take the pitcher's handedness into account. I've always assumed that the "Hold Runners" rating already did that (i.e. left handers get a bump to their Hold rating simply because they are left-handed). How many left-handed pitchers do you encounter that have a below average "Hold Runners" rating? How many right-handed pitchers do you encounter with a excellent "Hold Runners" rating?

endgame · 05-12-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cblacker

I don't know that you need to take the pitcher's handedness into account. I've always assumed that the "Hold Runners" rating already did that (i.e. left handers get a bump to their Hold rating simply because they are left-handed). How many left-handed pitchers do you encounter that have a below average "Hold Runners" rating? How many right-handed pitchers do you encounter with a excellent "Hold Runners" rating?

I don't know. Good question. Do we have data from a league?

Lou Gehrig · 05-12-2012, 05:48 PM

I appreciate the clarification on the setting awick. I was under the incorrect assumption that it only held the runner closer to the bag and effected the positioning of the fielders, creating a hole in the right side of the field for a runner on 1st base for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

I always believed, with a clearer view of first base and the lead taken, a high hold and a left-hander should reduce success rates. Thoughts?

I agree, a left hander should be a factor in reducing the success rate.

cblacker · 05-12-2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endgame

I don't know. Good question. Do we have data from a league?

Quick and dirty: I sorted all players by their Hold rating in my 2012 MLB Quickstart, and 25 of 35 players rated with an 8 on a 2 to 8 scale (scouting on) are left-handed, with Andy Pettite and Mark Buerhle being the top 2.

reddawg · 05-13-2012, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou Gehrig

I didn't realize this. Was this in the manual or is it through game experience? Just want to verify the "slippage" since I use this quite a bit.

slippage or shrinkage ? oh wait sry wrong forum.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 05-13-2012, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cblacker

I would say it's a slide step more so than pitching from the stretch. Every pitcher goes to the stretch when runners are on (except occasionally with a runner on 3rd), but a slide step speeds up the delivery to the plate even more, while presumably lowering effectiveness slightly.

Right. It's not even just a slide-step really. It just interpret it as "paying extra-special attention to the runner." That could be a slide-step. That could be alternating between a slide step and a normal stretch to throw the runner off. It could be varying the length of time the pitcher spends in the set position, etc. Anything to try to throw the runner's timing off.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 05-13-2012, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cblacker

I don't know that you need to take the pitcher's handedness into account. I've always assumed that the "Hold Runners" rating already did that (i.e. left handers get a bump to their Hold rating simply because they are left-handed). How many left-handed pitchers do you encounter that have a below average "Hold Runners" rating? How many right-handed pitchers do you encounter with a excellent "Hold Runners" rating?

Just to clarify, the "hold" rating is separate but related to the "hold runners" command in game. Every pitcher has a hold rating, and I believe that comes into play in any stolen base attempt, whether or not you are using the "hold runners" command. The command just amplifies the effect of that rating, I think, at the slight expense of your pitching.

Postman · 05-13-2012, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lou Gehrig

I agree, a left hander should be a factor in reducing the success rate.

Lou Brock said that he preferred stealing against lefties because he could see their hands. So, not in all cases.

Lou Gehrig · 05-13-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postman

Lou Brock said that he preferred stealing against lefties because he could see their hands. So, not in all cases.

Agree. There's always exceptions and Lou Brock is certainly one of them.
I hope Groucho (who is playing the 1961 Cardinals) reads this. Give Brock the steal sign against left handers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cblacker

Quick and dirty: I sorted all players by their Hold rating in my 2012 MLB Quickstart, and 25 of 35 players rated with an 8 on a 2 to 8 scale (scouting on) are left-handed, with Andy Pettite and Mark Buerhle being the top 2.

So it appears that the hold rating does consider the left hander's "advantage" in holding the runners, at least on first base.

05-10-2012, 02:02 AM	#1
DoubleBacon Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: In the garage! Posts: 51	Holding runners? Can someone provide me a cheat sheet on when to hold and not to hold runners on base? It seems elementary but I often wonder if I'm doing this correctly. It seems obvious to hold most runners at first, but what if the runner is a fat catcher with a speed rating of 1? Or a pitcher?

05-12-2012, 03:16 PM	#11
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	I don't have the time currently, but one aspect of holding- well, stealing period -I'd like to examine is the success rate against high hold, left-handed pitchers on steals of second. I want to believe they are slowed or reduced, but I have no data to support it and, candidly, suspect it's no different than right-handers. For that matter, should it be? I always believed, with a clearer view of first base and the lead taken, a high hold and a left-hander should reduce success rates. Thoughts? __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________

05-10-2012, 11:25 AM	#2
wiggins All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 892	From what I remember reading, and the way I've been using it, is the hold rating isn't so much that the first baseman is holding the runner on, it is actually the pitcher paying close attention to the runner or using a slide step to the plate to try and keep the runner closer. I only use it when my pitcher has a poor hold rating and the runner is an excellent base stealer. Keep in mind though, when using the "hold runner" your pitchers ability will slip a bit. I always thought they should change the name of the option from "hold runner" to "keep runner close. I as you thought that it meant "holding the runner on" by the first baseman.

05-10-2012, 11:58 AM	#3
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,252	I do it like a real life manager would. Always holding runners on when less than 2 outs and even with 2 outs if the runner is speedy. I look at the hold rating as a deception rating for the P to keep the runner guessing if he's going to throw over or not, ie keeping him closer. Holding the runner gives him less of a jump on a hit and almost all runners are held when they are on 1B.

05-10-2012, 01:12 PM	#5
DoubleBacon Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: In the garage! Posts: 51	Ohhhhh, okay. I get it now. I should have known better because it's an option when say a runner is on 2nd base w/ no-one on first. Thanks for the info!

05-12-2012, 12:48 PM	#8
awick Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Lansing, NY Posts: 313	The OOTP in-game help file says this about the hold runner option: "This option results in slightly weaker pitching performance, but a slightly greater chance to pick off a runner."

05-12-2012, 01:24 PM	#9
Postman Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Evergreen, CO Posts: 322	It's called pitching from the stretch, and it does indeed affect the pitcher's effectiveness. It's easy enough to see during a game (even on TV). The pitcher changes his motion so that he doesn't kick. Rather, he just slides his front foot forward. From the stretch a pitcher's first motion after coming set is toward the plate which is not the case with a full wind up (the first motion toward the plate is after the front foot is swung behind the foot on the rubber, and even a the slowest runner can time that). The affect is that it shortens the pitcher's delivery time so that if the runner attempts to steal, he has about a half a second to a second less time to reach his base (which is significant). Pitchers pitch from the stretch whenever there is a threat of a runner stealing a base or of some sort of play (bunts, hit and runs, etc.). So, yes, the likelihood of the runner stealing is taken into account. The batter's skill is taken into account as well. If there are two down and a runner on first, the pitcher is at bat, and you're up by a few runs, maybe you have the pitcher focus on the batter. One of the reasons for an intentional walk with runners at second and third is to allow the pitcher to go through his full wind up (and obviously to set up the force at every base).

05-12-2012, 02:26 PM	#10
cblacker Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 324	I would say it's a slide step more so than pitching from the stretch. Every pitcher goes to the stretch when runners are on (except occasionally with a runner on 3rd), but a slide step speeds up the delivery to the plate even more, while presumably lowering effectiveness slightly.

05-12-2012, 04:48 PM	#12
cblacker Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 324	I don't know that you need to take the pitcher's handedness into account. I've always assumed that the "Hold Runners" rating already did that (i.e. left handers get a bump to their Hold rating simply because they are left-handed). How many left-handed pitchers do you encounter that have a below average "Hold Runners" rating? How many right-handed pitchers do you encounter with a excellent "Hold Runners" rating?