Fundamental flaw in basic gameplay. (or "I *cannot* be alone in wanting to play this way.) - Page 9

Icy · 04-19-2012, 05:00 AM

Please Markus now that you are at it, check also the discrepancies between the arrows in the transaction screen and the text in the minors report that Skydog mentioned.

Markus Heinsohn · 04-19-2012, 05:01 AM

Alright. Here was the problem: In SkyDog's game the minor league system has a number of players which is pretty close to a complete system, in which case the AI switches to the mode which 'properly' sets up the system and ignoring the ghost player option.

It's a matter of balancing right, however I did make a tweak in the next patch which will handle this better.

Regarding the arrows on the transaction screen, keep in mind that these do take the current performance (stats) more into account than the actual roster AI, so in some cases you still will see some red arrows for players who are currently having bad seasons or green arrows for players having good seasons.

Hope this helps

Markus Heinsohn · 04-19-2012, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

Please Markus now that you are at it, check also the discrepancies between the arrows in the transaction screen and the text in the minors report that Skydog mentioned.

Yup. Fixed.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Alright. Here was the problem: In SkyDog's game the minor league system has a number of players which is pretty close to a complete system, in which case the AI switches to the mode which 'properly' sets up the system and ignoring the ghost player option.

It's a matter of balancing right, however I did make a tweak in the next patch which will handle this better.

How about a "force ghost minor league management" option as well eventually?

Quote:

Regarding the arrows on the transaction screen, keep in mind that these do take the current performance (stats) more into account than the actual roster AI, so in some cases you still will see some red arrows for players who are currently having bad seasons.

That's fine, but the huge discrepancy is still problematic. One metric is suggesting that he belongs in AAA, while the other is suggesting that he belongs in rookie ball.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 05:05 AM

Ah, ok. Cross-post on my second point there. Cool.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 05:08 AM

But on the first point, I'd still be concerned about "handle this better." I have, what, maybe 90 guys in the minors? Even if I have 120 out of 125, I'd want the 30 or 40 or whatever number belong in rookie ball to be down there rather than force-filling from the top down. I think we need an option to use the ghost-filling logic no matter how many players we have.

Markus Heinsohn · 04-19-2012, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

But on the first point, I'd still be concerned about "handle this better." I have, what, maybe 90 guys in the minors? Even if I have 120 out of 125, I'd want the 30 or 40 or whatever number belong in rookie ball to be down there rather than force-filling from the top down. I think we need an option to use the ghost-filling logic no matter how many players we have.

I disagree here. If I have for example 5 minor league teams, and 10 third basemen. 5 of those 3B are just ready for the rookie leagues, the other 5 single A or better. Now, do you want those 5 3B in rookie league, or rather 2 of them in short-season A ball and 3 in the rookie leagues? I'd take the latter.

Edit: The problem is that this area cannot be made 'right' for every taste, so I'm coding it to fit my thoughts on how it should behave. Sure, people will disagree, but there is no clear 'proper' way for the AI to handle things.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I disagree here. If I have for example 5 minor league teams, and 10 third basemen. 5 of those 3B are just ready for the rookie leagues, the other 5 single A or better. Now, do you want those 5 3B in rookie league, or rather 2 of them in short-season A ball and 3 in the rookie leagues? I'd take the latter.

Well sure. On a point like *that* I would agree. But if you have that many 3B, then that's your own fault. I'd be more concerned that I had, say, 90 players total, but only 3 first basemen in the organization, one ready for AAA, one single-A, and one for rookie ball. I wouldn't want it force-filling from the top down in that scenario by any means.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

...but there is no clear 'proper' way for the AI to handle things.

...which is why you should have a "use ghost logic no matter what" option there. With smart drafting, that logic would work in all circumstances. I'm simply never going to have five third basemen who are only ready for the rookie leagues, and I'd argue that most people who'd like to focus on the same things I focus on would be the same way. Only the nitwits out there would create a bottleneck like that in their own system (unless of course some bug/exploit showed up that made such a thing advantageous)...

Markus Heinsohn · 04-19-2012, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

...which is why you should have a "use ghost logic no matter what" option there.

With the tweaks I did this is not necessary. The game now checks if it can indeed set up a proper system and only then overrides the ghost player option, which makes perfect sense IMO.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

The game now checks if it can indeed set up a proper system and only then overrides the ghost player option, which makes perfect sense IMO.

Heh. Semantics. That's the same thing.

Markus Heinsohn · 04-19-2012, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Heh. Semantics. That's the same thing.

But it's not an option.

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

But it's not an option.

Now, now. We've clearly established *years* ago that deep down I don't *really* care about how a change/fix affects others' way of playing the game. I was just being magnanimous there. As long as it works fine for what I want (which of course it does...I'd turn on the "option" 100% of the time), you know I'm cool.

SunDevil · 04-19-2012, 07:40 AM

Thank you Markus.

jmount78 · 04-19-2012, 08:04 AM

Not sure if the changes Markus is making will fit everyones needs, but I have to give him credit for getting on the boards and communicating with us. I play a very popular baseball video game where communication on their own forums isn't anywhere near the customer service I have found here.

No game will be perfect to everyone, but at least it isn't for a lack of listening here. Thanks Markus!

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmount78

..Not sure if the changes Markus is making will fit everyones needs...

All joking aside, I suspect that they will on this front. Sounds like the nature of this "quirk" (not really a bug, but more of a use case that the developer hadn't fully considered) was such that those with small-to-medium minor league non-ghost rosters using ghost players needed no changes. And I'd suspect that the huge majority (if not every single one) of those with larger rosters expected it to work like I expected it to: if I have ghost players turned on and the AI is managing minors, then prioritize putting 'em where they belong above all else. Sounds like that's what's going to be happening now.

PSUColonel · 04-19-2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Found the setting to change roster sizes in minors. Set SS-A and Rookie Ball to 40, others to 25. More top-down stuff:

Thats been around for some time

snepp · 04-19-2012, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Alright. Here was the problem: In SkyDog's game the minor league system has a number of players which is pretty close to a complete system, in which case the AI switches to the mode which 'properly' sets up the system and ignoring the ghost player option.

This is good information, thanks.

Sounds like a nice addition for the user manual team to make!

Ben E Lou · 04-19-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snepp

This is good information, thanks.

Sounds like a nice addition for the user manual team to make!

Well, it sounds like that is changing soon...

Torvald · 04-19-2012, 11:40 AM

It would be great if you could start managing through the minor up to the majors, but I agree with alot that is on this thread

One thing is the AI GM of the team just doesn't care if there is a playable roster at your level. Currently I have 4 1Bs, 1 2Bs, and no other infielders. Also there are times that you get down to 8 pitchers. Really not able to win games with your roster the computer give you

This game is awesome, but that is something I would addressed.

04-19-2012, 05:01 AM	#162
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	Alright. Here was the problem: In SkyDog's game the minor league system has a number of players which is pretty close to a complete system, in which case the AI switches to the mode which 'properly' sets up the system and ignoring the ghost player option. It's a matter of balancing right, however I did make a tweak in the next patch which will handle this better. Regarding the arrows on the transaction screen, keep in mind that these do take the current performance (stats) more into account than the actual roster AI, so in some cases you still will see some red arrows for players who are currently having bad seasons or green arrows for players having good seasons. Hope this helps __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android Last edited by Markus Heinsohn; 04-19-2012 at 05:09 AM.

04-19-2012, 11:40 AM	#180
Torvald Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 2	GM Minor League AI It would be great if you could start managing through the minor up to the majors, but I agree with alot that is on this thread One thing is the AI GM of the team just doesn't care if there is a playable roster at your level. Currently I have 4 1Bs, 1 2Bs, and no other infielders. Also there are times that you get down to 8 pitchers. Really not able to win games with your roster the computer give you This game is awesome, but that is something I would addressed.

04-19-2012, 05:00 AM	#161
Icy All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 707	Please Markus now that you are at it, check also the discrepancies between the arrows in the transaction screen and the text in the minors report that Skydog mentioned.

04-19-2012, 05:05 AM	#165
Ben E Lou Front Office Football Central Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Souf Cackilacky Posts: 1,762	Ah, ok. Cross-post on my second point there. Cool.

04-19-2012, 05:08 AM	#166
Ben E Lou Front Office Football Central Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Souf Cackilacky Posts: 1,762	But on the first point, I'd still be concerned about "handle this better." I have, what, maybe 90 guys in the minors? Even if I have 120 out of 125, I'd want the 30 or 40 or whatever number belong in rookie ball to be down there rather than force-filling from the top down. I think we need an option to use the ghost-filling logic no matter how many players we have.

04-19-2012, 07:40 AM	#174
SunDevil Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 373	Thank you Markus.

04-19-2012, 08:04 AM	#175
jmount78 Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Carolina Posts: 306	Not sure if the changes Markus is making will fit everyones needs, but I have to give him credit for getting on the boards and communicating with us. I play a very popular baseball video game where communication on their own forums isn't anywhere near the customer service I have found here. No game will be perfect to everyone, but at least it isn't for a lack of listening here. Thanks Markus!