Fundamental flaw in basic gameplay. (or "I *cannot* be alone in wanting to play this way.)

[BleacherBum]

Originally Posted by Icy

My main reason is not his, but that if the AI is not managing the minors properly for my team, it means that is not doing it either for the AI managed teams, putting me on a big advantage against them.

That has always been my biggest concern with this issue. In fact, I would browse the AI teams minor leagues and typically find that they were horribly managed (in prior versions of OOTP - I'm not on 13 yet). After you sim a number of seasons, the effectiveness of the AI teams farm systems will deteriorate. If you give some attention to your team's minor leagues, you will have a huge advantage over the AI teams.

SkyDog - your desired play style is not unique. This is how I'd like to play the game too. But the challenge quickly wears off because the AI is not good at developing and maintaining competitive franchises over multiple seasons.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by BleacherBum

That has always been my biggest concern with this issue. In fact, I would browse the AI teams minor leagues and typically found they were horribly managed (in prior versions of OOTP - I'm not on 13 yet). After you sim a number of seasons, the effectiveness of the AI teams farm systems will deteriorate. If you give some attention to your team's minor leagues, you will have a huge advantage over the AI teams.

It's not huge at all. If you put in the work you get a slight advantage most of the time and a small one occasionally, depending on the specific circumstances. But the work does always pay off.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Hmmm...so supposedly it works exactly how I suggested that it should...Double-checking this now. I went through all levels and released a bunch of players signed by the AI when I had them doing signings for me (REALLY don't want that), that left me with (end regular season)

29 Active
19 AAA
16 AA
12 A
16 SS-A
21 R

Then I turned on ghost players and let the AI manage the minor league rosters. After retirements, I got this...

25 AAA
25 AAA
25 A
10 SS-A
0 Rookie

13 of the 25 guys in Single-A have the down-arrow, and on the Minor League Report (why on earth don't the two guides match????) says that 7 guys don't belong in Single A.

But again, per Markus:



In the absence of a contravening statement from Markus since he made that comment about ghost players, it sounds like AI management of rosters when ghost players are enabled is just flat-out broken, not working how the developer says it should work, and needs to be fixed.

While not as frustrated as Ben on this, I sympathize with him and in particular agree with the quoted post. With ghost players on, the AI shouldn't fill the top levels arbitrarily. I don't mind if it creates the odd roadblock or competition for lineup space, but I do want the AI to put the players at the right level based on its evaluation. If I wish, I can then make a few adjustments, but I don't want to have to promote or demote several players to get a semblance of allowing good development.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Kevin

While not as frustrated as Ben on this, I sympathize with him and in particular agree with the quoted post. With ghost players on, the AI shouldn't fill the top levels arbitrarily. I don't mind if it creates the odd roadblock or competition for lineup space, but I do want the AI to put the players at the right level based on its evaluation. If I wish, I can then make a few adjustments, but I don't want to have to promote or demote several players to get a semblance of allowing good development.

It's probably not that it's completely arbitrary, just that it is completely top-down. I'm guessing that what the AI does is:

1. Start at ML. Find the 25 "best" players for this level (could take power/speed, youth/experience, etc. into account, and likely massages for position requirements). Promote these 25 players.
2. Move to AAA. Find the 25 best players remaining in the system, promote them.
3. Move to AA. Find the 25 best players remaining, promote them.
4. Deal with A.
5. Deal with R.

At some point in the process, the game runs out of players. THEN it applies the Joe Unknowns. Or fills them in at game time, I don't know (I know they have player IDs, but I don't know if the same ones are consistently used for the same teams). The problem is that the system is NOT analyzing what level a given guy should be at, it is looking for the best to fill each level, and even the most green 17yo is going to be preferable in a comparison to a ghost player - assuming that comparison is even made.

Even if a GM manually fixes this on his own, this is still going to screw over AI teams if they don't have enough players, yes?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by BleacherBum

SkyDog - your desired play style is not unique. This is how I'd like to play the game too. But the challenge quickly wears off because the AI is not good at developing and maintaining competitive franchises over multiple seasons.

I know. That comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'd been batting this issue around with some FOxL guys and one of them was trying to claim that I'm playing in a "odd" way.

Originally Posted by cuerv

t's probably not that it's completely arbitrary, just that it is completely top-down. I'm guessing that what the AI does is:

1. Start at ML. Find the 25 "best" players for this level (could take power/speed, youth/experience, etc. into account, and likely massages for position requirements). Promote these 25 players.
2. Move to AAA. Find the 25 best players remaining in the system, promote them.
3. Move to AA. Find the 25 best players remaining, promote them.
4. Deal with A.
5. Deal with R.

That's almost certainly what is happening.

[Brettford]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

It's probably not that it's completely arbitrary, just that it is completely top-down. I'm guessing that what the AI does is:

1. Start at ML. Find the 25 "best" players for this level (could take power/speed, youth/experience, etc. into account, and likely massages for position requirements). Promote these 25 players.
2. Move to AAA. Find the 25 best players remaining in the system, promote them.
3. Move to AA. Find the 25 best players remaining, promote them.
4. Deal with A.
5. Deal with R.

Even if a GM manually fixes this on his own, this is still going to screw over AI teams if they don't have enough players, yes?

It certainly is not perfect, but I'm trying to isolate the minimum manual work required to play the game like SkyDog wants....it sounds like if you let the AI control your minors you also need to:

1) Manually insure that you have enough bodies to "fill out" your minors. (otherwise your A or R teams will have few players - see above)

2) Manually adjust the player strategy settings for your high potential prospects to "force start" at their desired position.

I *believe* that if you force start your prized SS, the AI will still promote/demote him freely, but he will remain the starter for his team regardless. I say this because under player strategy there is a force start AND a team lock option (not sure what its called). So I can only assume they are two different features and work independently.

I think there is clearly some low hanging fruit within the AI that can be improved with regard to how it manages the minor leagues. It is good for the community to point out this issue and highlight examples where you see the AI doing something that it shouldn't. That's how these things get fixed!

And I agree that the biggest problem is that CPU teams likely aren't handling their prospects appropriately. What degree of impact this has on a detail conscious human player's advantage is unknown.

But it seems to me that performing the two manual points above is probably the easiest way of playing the game (in its current form) the way you want to play.

The position lock is a great feature. Allows you to insert your own overriding input even if you want the AI to do everything else.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

And my suggestion is much simpler, and why I specifically want it differentiated from something that would be considered a "new feature" and therefore possibly tabled for later. Just fix the AI's management of the minors, and I couldn't possibly care less if I'm called "GM," "Manager," "Supreme Dictator," "Overbearing Asshat," or "One True Dark Jedi" by the game.

So which is it? - first you want to be "GM Period", now you don't.

Your suggestion may be simpler in your mind, but try to open your mind to the fact that not everybody is clamouring for the same thing you are. It's pretty obvious from reading this thread you can do the things you want now except that you don't want to do all the duties that come with being a GM - specifically you don't want to manage your minors. Lots of people don't have the problems you seem to have. So I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you should just stay out of the thread? Let's fix this so you're happy and damn the rest.

If you're too lazy to manage your minors, which IS part of your role as GM, then play without them or assign those duties to the AI and stop complaining when the AI can't read your mind and do exactly every move you think it should.

I can sit here and harp all day long just like you about how "simple" my idea is too, but I know it's not that simple, just like yours isn't. I also know my idea is just a suggestion to help improve the game so people who are too lazy to do their GM job can have their day in the sun too. But I guess as I said previously, if it doesn't agree with your idea, then I should stay out of the thread.

No worries, I'm done here.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

So which is it? - first you want to be "GM Period", now you don't.

Your suggestion may be simpler in your mind, but try to open your mind to the fact that not everybody is clamouring for the same thing you are. It's pretty obvious from reading this thread you can do the things you want now except that you don't want to do all the duties that come with being a GM - specifically you don't want to manage your minors. Lots of people don't have the problems you seem to have. So I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you should just stay out of the thread? Let's fix this so you're happy and damn the rest.

If you're too lazy to manage your minors, which IS part of your role as GM, then play without them or assign those duties to the AI and stop complaining when the AI can't read your mind and do exactly every move you think it should.

I can sit here and harp all day long just like you about how "simple" my idea is too, but I know it's not that simple, just like yours isn't. I also know my idea is just a suggestion to help improve the game so people who are too lazy to do their GM job can have their day in the sun too. But I guess as I said previously, if it doesn't agree with your idea, then I should stay out of the thread.

No worries, I'm done here.

He doesnt want to micromanage the minor league systems. It really isnt that hard to understand.

He simply wants to sim seasons in a fast way but still feel he has some control over the team. I dont think bringing the word lazy into the thread because he doesnt want to micromanage his minor leagues is the right word. It takes a while to set up your minor leagues properly so if you are interested in fast simming through seasons you dont want to deal with that.

I am not sure why the way he wants to play is hard for people to understand.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

So which is it? - first you want to be "GM Period", now you don't.

Semantics, semantics, semantics. I don't care about the *title* of GM. I'm talking about doing what I consider to be GM things.

Your suggestion may be simpler in your mind, but try to open your mind to the fact that not everybody is clamouring for the same thing you are. It's pretty obvious from reading this thread you can do the things you want now except that you don't want to do all the duties that come with being a GM - specifically you don't want to manage your minors. Lots of people don't have the problems you seem to have. So I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you should just stay out of the thread? Let's fix this so you're happy and damn the rest.

But lots do. And for the eleventy billionth time, it seems, you're talking about a new feature. I'm talking about a bug fix. Period.

If you're too lazy to manage your minors, which IS part of your role as GM, then play without them or assign those duties to the AI and stop complaining when the AI can't read your mind and do exactly every move you think it should.

I will play the way I want to, and I will complain when I deem it necessary. Last I checked, I was not obligated to take orders from you, so forgive me if I ignore what you are telling me to do here. Further, there's a difference between "lazy" and "these are menial tasks that I prefer to let the little people handle."

No worries, I'm done here.

Yeah, right.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

He doesnt want to micromanage the minor league systems. It really isnt that hard to understand.

He simply wants to sim seasons in a fast way but still feel he has some control over the team. I dont think bringing the word lazy into the thread because he doesnt want to micromanage his minor leagues is the right word. It takes a while to set up your minor leagues properly so if you are interested in fast simming through seasons you dont want to deal with that.

I am not sure why the way he wants to play is hard for people to understand.

It isn't hard to understand. I don't think that's the issue. Like I said from the start, what I'm suggesting here isn't weird or unusual in any way: it's a very common way to play text sims. I suspect it's a plain ol' lack of ability to see things from another perspective.

[spleen1015]

I wonder if the issue stems from the Rookie and Short-A schedules.

Skydog, how far into your season have you gotten? Did you get to the point in the season when the Rookie and Short-A leagues are playing games? I wonder if the game puts everyone in Single A to start the season because that team is playing games.

Just a thought.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I wonder if the issue stems from the Rookie and Short-A schedules work.

Skydog, how far into your season have you gotten? Did you get to the point in the season when the Rookie and Short-A leagues are playing games? I wonder if the game puts everyone in Single A to start the season because that team is playing games.

Just a thought.

No. I considered that possibility, but unfortunately it's not the case. I checked it once a month during the season. The three-weeks-after-the-draft thing I posted is the big smoking gun on it imho. Both the rookie and SS-A leagues are rolling then. The teams have records and the one guy in rookie ball has rookie ball stats.

[Cras]

This is a highly complicated issue. For one, does it matter a guy is promoted too high when using the ghost players? Does this actually stunt his growth in OOTP? I have no idea because using ghost players is something I never have and never will do.

Second, when dealing with the proper development path for a player, there are too many out there to hand over that responsibility to the AI. Even in a pure logical construct.

One thing we can agree on is that the AI should recognize where the potential talent lies. And this is just not for this particular rant, but for various other reasons which are all clear. The AI should have a good understanding of who the future stars are so they are handled properly in both the minors, and in trade negotiations, Rule 5 draft, burning of options, yada yada yada.

However, the issue here seems that the players should be in their right spot regardless of anything else. So lets look at this issue in a vaccum.

Player is a SS, has got skill, is still green. How do you develop him? One GM philosophy is that a player should have experience at every single level of the minor leagues. Another is that you want to stick your best prized prospects in AA, so they are playing against other future star players, and not against the psuedo major leaguers that AAA is filled with. Another is the idea of the position change. Do you change his position based on a log jam in the minors, or do you exercise enough forsight to change his position based on a future need on the major league club?

A lot of human elements here, and I have only scratched the surface. So that AI wants to stick the guy as high as he can go. For all I know, this is a fine way to do it in OOTP, and seeing a bunch of red arrows next to their names should not cause any sort of distress. If you want the guys to be where you feel they should be, then put them there, lock them in their positions, lock them in their level, and revist their situation a month or so down the road and re-evaluate.

I used to only pay attention to the AAA club and let the AI deal with the rest (aside from signing guys, I never ever let the AI sign a guy to my club. Ever.) Now I pay attention to the whole system, but only look at it at month intervals. This way I am not having guys getting caught inbetween levels and getting sent up and down and up and down, I have a gauge on who I got in the system, and I can have things set up to I am covered when the major league roster turns over (which only I have knowledge of, the AI will never be able to gauge what the major league roster will look like in the future because it has no way of knowing that I intend to re-sign this guy, let another guy go, will want to shop someone else, et cetera).

So in conclusion, what needs to be determined is does the method used with the ghost players enabled actually harm development, and is the AI properly assigning value to potential?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Cras

So in conclusion, what needs to be determined is does the method used with the ghost players enabled actually harm development, and is the AI properly assigning value to potential?

Markus has said that having a guy at the wrong minor league level will cause him problems. If that's true, then there's a "best" spot for every player at every juncture of his development. No human element in that.

[Cras]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Markus has said that having a guy at the wrong minor league level will cause him problems. If that's true, then there's a "best" spot for every player at every juncture of his development. No human element in that.

I was only aware of having a guy in the majors too early would cause problems. If having a guy in AAA too early causes problems too, then there is an issue here. If not, and I can't assume it is true or not without citation, the issue is purly cosmetic and not worthy of all this.

But I would raise the question here:

If playing with ghost players, why is it neccessary to have the AI manage the minors at all? Would it not be just as easy to leave promotions/demotions in the hands of the human player, who then from time to time resorts the rosters according to the arrows and reports? since that seems to be the primary tool used here to judge a player's proper place in the system.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by Icy

While I enjoy myself managing my minors promotions/demotions and even lineups so the players can learn new positions, I understand and fully agree with Skydog that it must be fixed.

My main reason is not his, but that if the AI is not managing the minors properly for my team, it means that is not doing it either for the AI managed teams, putting me on a big advantage against them.

+1

Can I please remind everyone in this thread about what Icy said, why it is not just about Skydog and his desire to play the role of GM in a hands off minors way. If the AI can't handle the minor leagues properly with a human overseeing his own team, then how in the hell is it managing correctly the other AI controlled teams in the leagues.

[t-bone shuffle]

I'm afraid the reality is that the AI still just doesn't do a great job with it's overall organizational management.

The league associated with this screenshot is a 24 team league, where I reduced the minors to AAA, AA, A and SA, with ghost players enabled, primarily for the purpose of making things easier for the AI. I always play this way. And while there's much less "shuffling" than in versions prior to 11, there are obviously still problems.

For example, look at poor Ryan Buchter (AI operated Atlanta Braves), shuttling between AA Mississippi and A Rome, four times in 7 days!!

I'm going to guess that, MiLB roster limits (I do 28 at AAA, AA and A, with none at SA) are a culprit somewhat as the AI seems obsessed with keeping the limited rosters right at their limit. On the other hand, at least in my league, current roster sizes of the unlimited SA range from 24 to 35, with most around 30.

Wonder if roster limits and "ghost players" are a bad combination.

Also, FWIW, I do micromanage my system and I enjoy it. I also believe, based upon observation and nothing else, that for the most part, the AI does just fine developing it's better prospects, but sees the scrubs as just that, and uses them as nothing but filler where needed.

[Brettford]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

+1

Can I please remind everyone in this thread about what Icy said, why it is not just about Skydog and his desire to play the role of GM in a hands off minors way. If the AI can't handle the minor leagues properly with a human overseeing his own team, then how in the hell is it managing correctly the other AI controlled teams in the leagues.

Precisely. Underscoring why this is more of a bug fix discussion than a new feature discussion.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Cras

I was only aware of having a guy in the majors too early would cause problems. If having a guy in AAA too early causes problems too, then there is an issue here. If not, and I can't assume it is true or not without citation, the issue is purly cosmetic and not worthy of all this.

But I would raise the question here:

If playing with ghost players, why is it neccessary to have the AI manage the minors at all? Would it not be just as easy to leave promotions/demotions in the hands of the human player, who then from time to time resorts the rosters according to the arrows and reports? since that seems to be the primary tool used here to judge a player's proper place in the system.

For me, it's simply a time/tedium issue. {opens up OOTP} There are roughly 40 players at the "wrong" level per the arrows. And again, the arrows and the Minor League Report do not square up. That's very troubling, too. I'd feel the need to check both reports to try to sort out wtf is going on. And remember, the AI is incorrectly assigning virtually the entire draft class to SS-A instead of rookie ball. If it were a one-time deal where I placed everyone and then twice a year adjusted per the arrows, that'd *maybe* be "barely-tolerable" tedium. But having to do that AND place the entire draft class every single season would be show-stopping for me. I'm interested in seeing my entire team turn over in roughly 2-3 weeks real-time of fairly-frequent play, not play only a month or two a night.

[spleen1015]

Let me start by saying I believe this is an early that I think needs some work.

Are we assuming the AI handles minors the same way when it is handling them for a human versus handling when the team is fully AI?

I just fired up a test league. When I created the league, it only had AAA. After the league was created, I added AA and A. I didn't create them at first because if you do, the game generates players to fill all levels. Ghost players are allowed.

I simmed to the day after the draft and I don't see this top down approach being used. I even have 1 team with 1 player in AAA, 10 in AA and 15 in A.