Building a Better Mousetrap (aka Optimizing Fictional Leagues)

greenrebellion · 01-21-2012, 02:08 AM

A buddy of mine and I have been working on starting an online league for a little while now, but we are really hoping to do it right and create an extremely immersive world right from the get go. It will be a fictional league and the idea is to make it challenging and require committed fairly active GM’s. Of course everyone probably starts with visions of grandeur, but we are really taking our time to make sure this is setup properly from the get go before advertising it, hence this post as I’m looking for some feedback on best practice approaches and to gain insight into other's experiences.

Thus far, we’ve written a back-story for the league, which I believe is important for fictional universes, and we’ve written a very detailed overview/constitution/bylaws for the league. The league will include custom financials which will encourage battling for every win even if you are well out of a playoff spot. The website is in progress and will provide ways to post articles etc. Again, everything we’ve done and every rule we’ve created is intended to enhance realism/immersion without becoming too cumbersome.

With that in mind, I wanted to bounce a couple of ideas/thoughts/questions off this forum:

1) Actual ratings will be off (as well as stars) but we can’t decide on whether we should go with no potential ratings aka stats only, 1-5 potential ratings or 1-10 potential ratings. Pure stats only leagues don’t have a great track record of success in OOTP, but it seems like there should be some sort of demand for them. Anyone that has been in a pure stats only online league (no ratings at all) please let me know what caused the downfall of these leagues. 1-5 potential is still very vague but provides a quick visual “scouting report” so to speak…but one would still have to rely heavily on stats to make decisions. 1-10 provides enough information that even if you weren’t heavily stats focused, you could probably still build a pretty good team.

2) Rule V draft – I like the Rule V draft, but it has pitfalls. The AI is horrible at running it so it creates problems for teams in transition and its also very easy for a team to get decimated from a missed export or two when a GM didn’t get a chance to update their 40 man rosters. This in turn negatively impacts realism/immersion. What is this forum’s view on online leagues and Rule V drafts and what are some systems/rules that are put in place in order to maximize the success of the Rule V draft?

3) Scouting on/off…Coaching on/off….what are players thoughts and views on these options and some of the advantages and disadvantages of each. The only online leagues I’ve been in have had these options turned off so I have no experience on the other side.

4) Sim speed. This is a tough one, personally I prefer faster rather than slower, but like to try to find a balance so that it isn’t so fast that its impossible to get really immersed in the league. Our current plan calls for a speed that completes 5-6 seasons per calendar year, thoughts?

5) What is the best way to run an inaugural draft so that it doesn’t take a month to complete but still allows players the ability to customize their team from the start?

Obviously a lot of these questions are very subjective in nature. I'm just looking to gather other people's online league experience, combine it with my own, and hopefully come up with a "best practice" approach.

Cooleyvol · 01-21-2012, 08:40 AM

Run the draft with statslab.

dcpcarmona · 01-21-2012, 06:11 PM

Speed kills any notion of immersion because it is hard for GMs to follow their teams and the league for that matter. Also, it keeps GMs less active, of course, these are just my

coljesep · 01-21-2012, 06:59 PM

I agree with carmona here. I wouldn't even look at a league if I saw their hope was to sim 5-6 seasons per calendar year.

3 would be my absolute maximum.

I am not running a team in an online league to quickly see box scores and then do the off-season again. I feel like when you're making the season a formality, you're conceding that there will be little to no competitiveness in your league.

greenrebellion · 01-23-2012, 10:36 PM

Thanks for the feedback thus far. Seems like the sim pace needs to be slowed down some.

How about the stats only side of it. Even if you've never run a stats only league or played in one...would you consider joining one or is there an aversion to it. Would you be more comfortable with a 1-5 potential rating system which supplies basically a visual scouting report but still forces you to rely on statistics primarily?

I'm mainly trying to figure out why most stats only leagues fail. Even the dogs day baseball league, a very successful online league, eventually implemented a 1-5 actual ratings and 1-10 potential rating system after starting out stats only. The other ones I found all flopped within a few seasons.

Looking for any and all opinions from novice to experts!

spleen1015 · 01-24-2012, 09:43 AM

My thoughts.

1. I have never played with ratings turned off, so I don't really have an opinion.

2. I don't like this aspect when playing OOTP. My experience with online leagues is that folks will grab guys in the Rule V that have no business being picked. They'll leave them in the majors for a season, then put them back in the minors. People will abuse the system and I think the headaches involved make it not worth it. If you want to spend the time to police it then, go for it. I wouldn't do it though.

3. I don't like the way this works in OOTP. The opinions of the scouts are varied to an unrealistic degree, IMO. As far as coaches go, the way the were implemented the last time I played with them was terribly imbalanced. Teams with good minor league coaches would always see talent increases in their players and the teams with bad ones would always see talent decreases. I understand that it should work this way to a degree, but players can improve and develop despite bad coaching and in this case that never happened. It was a long time ago though, so it may have changed since then, but given the history of this sort of issues, I assume it still sucks.

4. I agree with the opinion that if you want immersion, speed will hurt that. How many days a week are you planning on simming? I prefer a faster simming league myself just because I like to move forward and see lots of history.

5. An inaugural draft is always a pain in the ass. The best way I have seen it handled is to have your draft picks scheduled and do 1 round per day. Give 30 minutes between picks and tell people that if they don't pick, it is a CPU pick. This requires that someone be able to process picks throughout the day. Cooley's statslab idea is a good one, too.

JWay · 01-24-2012, 10:24 AM

A good community is all you need. The rest is all fluff.

RchW · 01-24-2012, 10:45 AM

Make sure the league totals (output) are realistic across the board. Especially DP and the split between GDP and LDP. The effect on performance is huge.

Bluenoser · 01-24-2012, 11:13 AM

Rule 5 drafts work great in online leagues that I've experienced them in. They definitely help the weaker teams, provided the GM's are actually taking the time to prepare for the draft.

The concern with the AI is non existent if all your teams are human managed. I'm not sure what you mean by the AI decimating teams.

As for owners missing exports - no insult intended but that excuse is lame. If you join a league, participate. Pretty simple. I know rl gets in the way, but there are no rules saying you need to wait until the sim before the rule 5 to get ready for it. You have 364 game days to sort your 40 man roster out. If you're not ready it's because you didn't pay attention to your team when you should have been. The rule 5 draft happens on the same date every season, no excuses.

mjj55409 · 01-24-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

2. I don't like this aspect when playing OOTP. My experience with online leagues is that folks will grab guys in the Rule V that have no business being picked. They'll leave them in the majors for a season, then put them back in the minors. People will abuse the system and I think the headaches involved make it not worth it. If you want to spend the time to police it then, go for it. I wouldn't do it though.

Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If you don't want to lose a player, put him on the 40 man. Simple.

I think Rule 5 drafts are great. With the caveat that the AI sucks at managing the roster. But if you have teams not under human control, you have deeper problems.

JWay · 01-24-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjj55409

With the caveat that the AI sucks at managing the roster. But if you have teams not under human control, you have deeper problems.

I really disagree with this. Its better to let the AI sit on auto-pilot, then to fill with some owner who will abandon their team without notice, within a few weeks of overhauling their roster. Find the right owner first.

spleen1015 · 01-24-2012, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjj55409

Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If you don't want to lose a player, put him on the 40 man. Simple.

I think Rule 5 drafts are great. With the caveat that the AI sucks at managing the roster. But if you have teams not under human control, you have deeper problems.

Yes and no. You have human owners running bad teams picking players with high potential but low ratings and having them in the majors for a season when they shouldn't be. This wouldn't happen in real life. No one gets picked in the Rule V draft unless a team thinks they can play in the majors. No team would select someone just to sit them in the majors. It wouldn't happen.

JWay · 01-24-2012, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

No team would select someone just to sit them in the majors. It wouldn't happen.

Wrong: Luis Ugueto Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

mjj55409 · 01-24-2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWay

I really disagree with this. Its better to let the AI sit on auto-pilot, then to fill with some owner who will abandon their team without notice, within a few weeks of overhauling their roster. Find the right owner first.

I think we are in agreement here. I was simply remarking that the AI is particularly bad at managing the 40 man roster vis-a-vis the Rule V.

JWay · 01-24-2012, 05:21 PM

Oh, yes, the AI does not understand the 40 man roster at all. It will hurt a team after spring training and at the rule 5 draft. You're correct there.

mjj55409 · 01-24-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWay

Wrong: Luis Ugueto Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

An even better example would be the Twins with Johan Santana. They drafted him in the '99 Rule V. They gave him a few starts in 2000, but mainly they tried to hide him in the bullpen. Back to the minors for most of 2001 and some of 2002, at which point he was up for good. Santana had potential, but he was not ready to pitch in the majors. In no way is this "gaming" the system.

bigfatcat · 01-24-2012, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenrebellion

Thanks for the feedback thus far. Seems like the sim pace needs to be slowed down some.

How about the stats only side of it. Even if you've never run a stats only league or played in one...would you consider joining one or is there an aversion to it. Would you be more comfortable with a 1-5 potential rating system which supplies basically a visual scouting report but still forces you to rely on statistics primarily?

I'm mainly trying to figure out why most stats only leagues fail. Even the dogs day baseball league, a very successful online league, eventually implemented a 1-5 actual ratings and 1-10 potential rating system after starting out stats only. The other ones I found all flopped within a few seasons.

Looking for any and all opinions from novice to experts!

am in a great stats only league (scouts off)
we do use 1-5 for talet...but it helps mostly with amatuer drafts...when you have no real stats to judge anyone by.

greenrebellion · 01-24-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigfatcat

am in a great stats only league (scouts off)
we do use 1-5 for talet...but it helps mostly with amatuer drafts...when you have no real stats to judge anyone by.

Which league is it? I'd be curious to check out the website. Do you guys have any particular rules/settings that made this stats only league particularly successful?

Thanks for your feedback!

JWay · 01-24-2012, 07:42 PM

Check out Classic Baseball Union | Just another OOTP Baseball Simulation

We use scouts, no salary cap, use heavy financial sharing, have a great community, write tons of articles, and simmed 25 years and took over teams as is to give us history and a running start.

The league has been around for 3 years, but we restarted in November and didn't lose a single owner.

01-21-2012, 02:08 AM	#1
greenrebellion Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 292	Building a Better Mousetrap (aka Optimizing Fictional Leagues) A buddy of mine and I have been working on starting an online league for a little while now, but we are really hoping to do it right and create an extremely immersive world right from the get go. It will be a fictional league and the idea is to make it challenging and require committed fairly active GM’s. Of course everyone probably starts with visions of grandeur, but we are really taking our time to make sure this is setup properly from the get go before advertising it, hence this post as I’m looking for some feedback on best practice approaches and to gain insight into other's experiences. Thus far, we’ve written a back-story for the league, which I believe is important for fictional universes, and we’ve written a very detailed overview/constitution/bylaws for the league. The league will include custom financials which will encourage battling for every win even if you are well out of a playoff spot. The website is in progress and will provide ways to post articles etc. Again, everything we’ve done and every rule we’ve created is intended to enhance realism/immersion without becoming too cumbersome. With that in mind, I wanted to bounce a couple of ideas/thoughts/questions off this forum: 1) Actual ratings will be off (as well as stars) but we can’t decide on whether we should go with no potential ratings aka stats only, 1-5 potential ratings or 1-10 potential ratings. Pure stats only leagues don’t have a great track record of success in OOTP, but it seems like there should be some sort of demand for them. Anyone that has been in a pure stats only online league (no ratings at all) please let me know what caused the downfall of these leagues. 1-5 potential is still very vague but provides a quick visual “scouting report” so to speak…but one would still have to rely heavily on stats to make decisions. 1-10 provides enough information that even if you weren’t heavily stats focused, you could probably still build a pretty good team. 2) Rule V draft – I like the Rule V draft, but it has pitfalls. The AI is horrible at running it so it creates problems for teams in transition and its also very easy for a team to get decimated from a missed export or two when a GM didn’t get a chance to update their 40 man rosters. This in turn negatively impacts realism/immersion. What is this forum’s view on online leagues and Rule V drafts and what are some systems/rules that are put in place in order to maximize the success of the Rule V draft? 3) Scouting on/off…Coaching on/off….what are players thoughts and views on these options and some of the advantages and disadvantages of each. The only online leagues I’ve been in have had these options turned off so I have no experience on the other side. 4) Sim speed. This is a tough one, personally I prefer faster rather than slower, but like to try to find a balance so that it isn’t so fast that its impossible to get really immersed in the league. Our current plan calls for a speed that completes 5-6 seasons per calendar year, thoughts? 5) What is the best way to run an inaugural draft so that it doesn’t take a month to complete but still allows players the ability to customize their team from the start? Obviously a lot of these questions are very subjective in nature. I'm just looking to gather other people's online league experience, combine it with my own, and hopefully come up with a "best practice" approach.

01-21-2012, 06:11 PM	#3
dcpcarmona All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: at the New Moon Posts: 1,644	Speed kills any notion of immersion because it is hard for GMs to follow their teams and the league for that matter. Also, it keeps GMs less active, of course, these are just my __________________ "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." -Rogers Hornsby Last edited by dcpcarmona; 01-21-2012 at 09:09 PM.

01-24-2012, 10:45 AM	#8
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Make sure the league totals (output) are realistic across the board. Especially DP and the split between GDP and LDP. The effect on performance is huge. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

01-21-2012, 08:40 AM	#2
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	Run the draft with statslab.

01-21-2012, 06:59 PM	#4
coljesep All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 'Merica Posts: 569	I agree with carmona here. I wouldn't even look at a league if I saw their hope was to sim 5-6 seasons per calendar year. 3 would be my absolute maximum. I am not running a team in an online league to quickly see box scores and then do the off-season again. I feel like when you're making the season a formality, you're conceding that there will be little to no competitiveness in your league.

01-23-2012, 10:36 PM	#5
greenrebellion Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 292	Thanks for the feedback thus far. Seems like the sim pace needs to be slowed down some. How about the stats only side of it. Even if you've never run a stats only league or played in one...would you consider joining one or is there an aversion to it. Would you be more comfortable with a 1-5 potential rating system which supplies basically a visual scouting report but still forces you to rely on statistics primarily? I'm mainly trying to figure out why most stats only leagues fail. Even the dogs day baseball league, a very successful online league, eventually implemented a 1-5 actual ratings and 1-10 potential rating system after starting out stats only. The other ones I found all flopped within a few seasons. Looking for any and all opinions from novice to experts!

01-24-2012, 09:43 AM	#6
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	My thoughts. 1. I have never played with ratings turned off, so I don't really have an opinion. 2. I don't like this aspect when playing OOTP. My experience with online leagues is that folks will grab guys in the Rule V that have no business being picked. They'll leave them in the majors for a season, then put them back in the minors. People will abuse the system and I think the headaches involved make it not worth it. If you want to spend the time to police it then, go for it. I wouldn't do it though. 3. I don't like the way this works in OOTP. The opinions of the scouts are varied to an unrealistic degree, IMO. As far as coaches go, the way the were implemented the last time I played with them was terribly imbalanced. Teams with good minor league coaches would always see talent increases in their players and the teams with bad ones would always see talent decreases. I understand that it should work this way to a degree, but players can improve and develop despite bad coaching and in this case that never happened. It was a long time ago though, so it may have changed since then, but given the history of this sort of issues, I assume it still sucks. 4. I agree with the opinion that if you want immersion, speed will hurt that. How many days a week are you planning on simming? I prefer a faster simming league myself just because I like to move forward and see lots of history. 5. An inaugural draft is always a pain in the ass. The best way I have seen it handled is to have your draft picks scheduled and do 1 round per day. Give 30 minutes between picks and tell people that if they don't pick, it is a CPU pick. This requires that someone be able to process picks throughout the day. Cooley's statslab idea is a good one, too.

01-24-2012, 10:24 AM	#7
JWay Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 5,031	A good community is all you need. The rest is all fluff.

01-24-2012, 11:13 AM	#9
Bluenoser Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In The Moment Posts: 14,477	Rule 5 drafts work great in online leagues that I've experienced them in. They definitely help the weaker teams, provided the GM's are actually taking the time to prepare for the draft. The concern with the AI is non existent if all your teams are human managed. I'm not sure what you mean by the AI decimating teams. As for owners missing exports - no insult intended but that excuse is lame. If you join a league, participate. Pretty simple. I know rl gets in the way, but there are no rules saying you need to wait until the sim before the rule 5 to get ready for it. You have 364 game days to sort your 40 man roster out. If you're not ready it's because you didn't pay attention to your team when you should have been. The rule 5 draft happens on the same date every season, no excuses.

01-24-2012, 05:21 PM	#15
JWay Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 5,031	Oh, yes, the AI does not understand the 40 man roster at all. It will hurt a team after spring training and at the rule 5 draft. You're correct there.

01-24-2012, 07:42 PM	#19
JWay Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 5,031	Check out Classic Baseball Union \| Just another OOTP Baseball Simulation We use scouts, no salary cap, use heavy financial sharing, have a great community, write tons of articles, and simmed 25 years and took over teams as is to give us history and a running start. The league has been around for 3 years, but we restarted in November and didn't lose a single owner.