Patch News - Page 2

Steve Kuffrey · 06-06-2003, 04:29 PM

I think that making it "a team setting" at this point would be asking for trouble. For v6 I am in total agreement.

Draft Dodger · 06-06-2003, 04:38 PM

I think that's pretty much what I said. or at least, what I was trying to say.

Another Mike D · 06-06-2003, 04:54 PM

Well then is there any point in putting it in now? Seems like a big waste of time to make it a global setting and a waste of our time to put it in the game. No knock on Marcus, I know he worked hard, but I don't see any value to putting in a global preference.

Anrhydeddu · 06-06-2003, 05:12 PM

As a gamer who finds trading to be the most fun aspect of a sports sim, I am uneasy about this. It seems that many are asking for a more intelligent trading AI where it can better determine where the needs are. Why do you now assume that there can be a global setting when not all teams are equal in their needs? To me, an enhanced trading feature would include better value of prospects (not at the expense of veterans - sometimes both are equal in demand) and eliminating the constant merry-go-round of AI players in trades, releases and in-season FA signings. I had hoped for the ability to trade picks but that can wait.

Draft Dodger · 06-06-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Another Mike D
Well then is there any point in putting it in now? Seems like a big waste of time to make it a global setting and a waste of our time to put it in the game. No knock on Marcus, I know he worked hard, but I don't see any value to putting in a global preference.

I could see it having some use.
it would allow you to tweak the trading AI a little bit more to your liking in your league. not as fully as we'd like, of course, but it's still something.

zyk · 06-06-2003, 05:26 PM

i dont see how its too big for a patch, im a programmer myself.. The coding to do this would take 10 minutes tops... Testing on the other hand could take time but i dont see how it could be much more then with what he has now...

Markus allready has the setting coded, all he would need to do is to code a simple function to evaluate a team's salary, record, ect.... Im sure he allready has functions coded in the game to evaluate a team and its needs, so he probably wouldnt have to even code much here... After figuring out a teams needs, current status, ect.... the function returns a value. Based on this value the code he allready has would set the setting which is allready coded. This way teams with the worst record in the league and salary problems arent gonna trade prospects for veterans just because its a global setting.

Seems simple enough to me. Coding the setting is the hard part (allready done), selecting the setting based on some team needs isnt hard at all...

I would think markus would agree.

The Last Word Period · 06-06-2003, 05:47 PM

"well you see, I have been doing this here programming stuff for a while now, and I got a good handle on it. In fact, Markus doesn't need to worry. I and the fellers here got all the ideas for him. He won't have to think at all. Just program everything we want."

Some of you people really surprise me. You play at programming and think you are really the man about town.

Look, Markus announced something you wanted. A upgrade to the AI for trades. Let him at least get the testing started and give the beta testers time to work with it, and try it out before you cowboys of simulation prarie give them sage advice how to fix what has JUST been announced...

There have been some good ideas here. But do they belong in this announcement? Oh hell no. No, of course they belong in the WISH LISTS..but who the hell uses that thing?

Period out.

zyk · 06-06-2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Some of you people really surprise me. You play at programming and think you are really the man about town.

Play? Actually im graduating with my degree in computer science after next semester. I allready have a job making good money programming, im one of the programmers at westwood studios in Vegas. Maybe you have heard of them? ...http://www.westwoodstudios.com/

Anyways if they are going to add a setting and if theres not enough time to do it right then hold it off till version 6. I like the difficulty setting, but i dont see what the point of the trade AI preference setting if each team doesn't have its own preference. Making each team use the same preference is just going to add to the "bad trade AI" problem everyone complains about.

Not trying to be negative, but this is one of my favorite games and want to put in my input so its even better

Draft Dodger · 06-06-2003, 06:08 PM

Zyk,
I think you're definitely right about the coding part of it.
Certainly, it wouldn't take long to physically make the changes.

I think you are underestimating the amount of time and testing though that would go into the logic part of things - this part of it isn't just a quick change.

of course...ALL of this is speculation based on just a sentences paragraphs Markus wrote today.

zyk · 06-06-2003, 06:27 PM

yea the testing is definatley always the hardest part in projects of this size...

i was looking at it from the point of view of that if you gonna add a setting it would be easier to code everything related to that setting at once and then test it... Instead of coding half now, testing it.... Finish coding the feautures later and test it all over again...

but like you said this is all speculation, no way of knowing if thats the case here.. Im probably being little impatient, but can you blame me? How cool would it be to finally have a good trade AI? Thats the main part that kills my solo league expierence.. And i believe thats the main reason the computer AI can be so easy to beat. It sounds as if markus is working hard on it cant wait to see it.

Steve Kuffrey · 06-06-2003, 06:28 PM

Let me just add what I think is some remembrance(though vaguely) of some past trade AI complaints and why this may have been included at this point:

In the past some have said "It's too easy to trade for prospects", while others have said "It's too hard, I can't get prospects at all". I see the vet/prospect slider NOT so much (currently) for the benefit of the computer teams, but for the human owners making the above comments.

I could be way off base here but just a thought.

twins15 · 06-06-2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crabster
Good work Markus.........Will it be saved game compatable ?

Don't know if this was ever answered. Will it? I am wondering if I shoudl start a new league now or wait for the patch?

General Mike · 06-06-2003, 08:52 PM

The OOTP patches have always been compatabile in the past. I can't see it being any different now.

Henry · 06-06-2003, 09:07 PM

The implementation as it stands now will give you two things...

(1) You will be able to set the difficulty to the point that pleases you, and
(2) You will be able to set the value of prospects versus veterans on a global level, although keeping the slider near "to neutral" will probably give you the best results in this version.

Once this change is confirmed as working and is acceptable to most, then Markus can focus on the team settings and how to implement them. There are other requests in the wings as well... manager persaonalities comes to mind as one which would be significantly impacted on how this new feature is implemented on a team-by-team basis.

Give Markus a chance here to take this one step at a time. As I've said over and over, programming is the easy part - getting the "logic" into the code takes time and effort - sometimes trial and error. I spent 19 years of my 36 year career as a programmer at all levels from coder (1969) to application architect (1988), and still dabble with it sometimes... and it's never as easy as it seems on the surface.

braves_81 · 06-06-2003, 09:14 PM

So I would have to manually set the computer preferences? Like go through each team and change their prefernces? That would suck IMO, I don't want to change every teams preference, the AI should handle that. Or am I misenterpreting things?

Steve Kuffrey · 06-06-2003, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by braves_81
So I would have to manually set the computer preferences? Like go through each team and change their prefernces? That would suck IMO, I don't want to change every teams preference, the AI should handle that. Or am I misenterpreting things?

There is "currently" ONLY going to be ONE "league-wide" setting. In a future release the possibility exists for "team" settings, BUT I am sure that in those cases if a team is computer owned that the computer would adjust the settings.

couriers · 06-06-2003, 09:18 PM

I really like that fact that Marcus and his team are willing to put such great effort into releasing patches that include bug fixes and new features. As much as I like seeing these new features implemented it is hopefully a main concern of theirs to make sure that all of the bug reports are addressed. This does not mean that I would expect all of the current problems to be resolved in one grand attempt but they should at least be looked into and an update on their status should be reported. I know that this is jumping the gun a bit since the patch isn't even out yet but consider it a personal wish as opposed to any kind of gripe.

Good luck Marcus, we are all counting on you.

braves_81 · 06-06-2003, 09:19 PM

Would there be a button to toggle that option on and off?

Steve Kuffrey · 06-06-2003, 09:28 PM

What option?

Henry · 06-06-2003, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by braves_81
Would there be a button to toggle that option on and off?

It would default to "neutral" or "average".

06-06-2003, 04:29 PM	#21
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	I think that making it "a team setting" at this point would be asking for trouble. For v6 I am in total agreement. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

06-06-2003, 04:38 PM	#22
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	I think that's pretty much what I said. or at least, what I was trying to say. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

06-06-2003, 04:54 PM	#23
Another Mike D All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: atl Posts: 891	Well then is there any point in putting it in now? Seems like a big waste of time to make it a global setting and a waste of our time to put it in the game. No knock on Marcus, I know he worked hard, but I don't see any value to putting in a global preference. __________________ San Diego Padres NexGen Baseball League Cleveland Indians United Baseball League Co-commissioner of United Baseball League

06-06-2003, 05:26 PM	#26
zyk Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: vegas Posts: 177	i dont see how its too big for a patch, im a programmer myself.. The coding to do this would take 10 minutes tops... Testing on the other hand could take time but i dont see how it could be much more then with what he has now... Markus allready has the setting coded, all he would need to do is to code a simple function to evaluate a team's salary, record, ect.... Im sure he allready has functions coded in the game to evaluate a team and its needs, so he probably wouldnt have to even code much here... After figuring out a teams needs, current status, ect.... the function returns a value. Based on this value the code he allready has would set the setting which is allready coded. This way teams with the worst record in the league and salary problems arent gonna trade prospects for veterans just because its a global setting. Seems simple enough to me. Coding the setting is the hard part (allready done), selecting the setting based on some team needs isnt hard at all... I would think markus would agree. Last edited by zyk; 06-06-2003 at 05:34 PM.

06-06-2003, 06:08 PM	#29
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	Zyk, I think you're definitely right about the coding part of it. Certainly, it wouldn't take long to physically make the changes. I think you are underestimating the amount of time and testing though that would go into the logic part of things - this part of it isn't just a quick change. of course...ALL of this is speculation based on just a sentences paragraphs Markus wrote today. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

06-06-2003, 05:12 PM	#24
Anrhydeddu Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 52	As a gamer who finds trading to be the most fun aspect of a sports sim, I am uneasy about this. It seems that many are asking for a more intelligent trading AI where it can better determine where the needs are. Why do you now assume that there can be a global setting when not all teams are equal in their needs? To me, an enhanced trading feature would include better value of prospects (not at the expense of veterans - sometimes both are equal in demand) and eliminating the constant merry-go-round of AI players in trades, releases and in-season FA signings. I had hoped for the ability to trade picks but that can wait.

06-06-2003, 05:47 PM	#27
The Last Word Period Bat Boy Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 11	"well you see, I have been doing this here programming stuff for a while now, and I got a good handle on it. In fact, Markus doesn't need to worry. I and the fellers here got all the ideas for him. He won't have to think at all. Just program everything we want." Some of you people really surprise me. You play at programming and think you are really the man about town. Look, Markus announced something you wanted. A upgrade to the AI for trades. Let him at least get the testing started and give the beta testers time to work with it, and try it out before you cowboys of simulation prarie give them sage advice how to fix what has JUST been announced... There have been some good ideas here. But do they belong in this announcement? Oh hell no. No, of course they belong in the WISH LISTS..but who the hell uses that thing? Period out.

06-06-2003, 06:27 PM	#30
zyk Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: vegas Posts: 177	yea the testing is definatley always the hardest part in projects of this size... i was looking at it from the point of view of that if you gonna add a setting it would be easier to code everything related to that setting at once and then test it... Instead of coding half now, testing it.... Finish coding the feautures later and test it all over again... but like you said this is all speculation, no way of knowing if thats the case here.. Im probably being little impatient, but can you blame me? How cool would it be to finally have a good trade AI? Thats the main part that kills my solo league expierence.. And i believe thats the main reason the computer AI can be so easy to beat. It sounds as if markus is working hard on it cant wait to see it. Last edited by zyk; 06-06-2003 at 06:31 PM.

06-06-2003, 06:28 PM	#31
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	Let me just add what I think is some remembrance(though vaguely) of some past trade AI complaints and why this may have been included at this point: In the past some have said "It's too easy to trade for prospects", while others have said "It's too hard, I can't get prospects at all". I see the vet/prospect slider NOT so much (currently) for the benefit of the computer teams, but for the human owners making the above comments. I could be way off base here but just a thought. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

06-06-2003, 08:52 PM	#33
General Mike Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somerset, NJ Posts: 255	The OOTP patches have always been compatabile in the past. I can't see it being any different now.

06-06-2003, 09:07 PM	#34
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	The implementation as it stands now will give you two things... (1) You will be able to set the difficulty to the point that pleases you, and (2) You will be able to set the value of prospects versus veterans on a global level, although keeping the slider near "to neutral" will probably give you the best results in this version. Once this change is confirmed as working and is acceptable to most, then Markus can focus on the team settings and how to implement them. There are other requests in the wings as well... manager persaonalities comes to mind as one which would be significantly impacted on how this new feature is implemented on a team-by-team basis. Give Markus a chance here to take this one step at a time. As I've said over and over, programming is the easy part - getting the "logic" into the code takes time and effort - sometimes trial and error. I spent 19 years of my 36 year career as a programmer at all levels from coder (1969) to application architect (1988), and still dabble with it sometimes... and it's never as easy as it seems on the surface.

06-06-2003, 09:14 PM	#35
braves_81 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 27	So I would have to manually set the computer preferences? Like go through each team and change their prefernces? That would suck IMO, I don't want to change every teams preference, the AI should handle that. Or am I misenterpreting things?

06-06-2003, 09:18 PM	#37
couriers All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla Posts: 932	I really like that fact that Marcus and his team are willing to put such great effort into releasing patches that include bug fixes and new features. As much as I like seeing these new features implemented it is hopefully a main concern of theirs to make sure that all of the bug reports are addressed. This does not mean that I would expect all of the current problems to be resolved in one grand attempt but they should at least be looked into and an update on their status should be reported. I know that this is jumping the gun a bit since the patch isn't even out yet but consider it a personal wish as opposed to any kind of gripe. Good luck Marcus, we are all counting on you.

06-06-2003, 09:19 PM	#38
braves_81 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 27	Would there be a button to toggle that option on and off?

06-06-2003, 09:28 PM	#39
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	What option? __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95