OOTP goes HOCKEY!!!!

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by rdomico

I have a general question.

One thing I really like about baseball as a text sim is the amount of stats I could use to evaluate my players. I don't need to watch the game to know if a players is hitting.
I own Front Office Football and I like the game. The problem I always have is how to properly evaluate my players. How do I know if my right guard is playing well? I see some of the same issues with hockey. How do I evaluate my defensive defensemen? Obviously goal scorers are easy. If they score, they are doing their job. I don't own Football Manger. How does it help you evaluate guys? I don't have a great deal of knowledge about soccer, but it seems to me that their would not be a great deal of stats to help you.

Hope that makes sense.

As you mentioned, traditional hockey stats are a lot less helpful compared to baseball stats. So one thing you will find are more advanced stats (like Hockey Prospectus) to help you evaluate your players. Additionally, every player will be rated in every game he plays (and on the fly during a game) so you always know how players perform. So if you have a high rated player with just below-average game ratings it is time to look for reasons.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

(btw, I would much rather OOTD work on creating an ITP 2.....*hint, hint* )

The hockey game will have no influence on a possible ITP2.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by MacPhal

Wow! can't wait! I can't wait to hear details on the money side of things. Will the Salary cap change each year, will there be much difference in GMing a big market team and a small market team.

The very least you can do is changing the Salary Cap by hand. Stuff like Team Market, Fan Interest or Arena Quality will all be a big part of the game.

Originally Posted by MacPhal

Also player development. How will scouting\development work? Will it be like the money slider OOTP way or scouts/coachs in the EHM/FM games?

This is one of the few parts that is more in design phase then already coded. I'm not the biggest fan of the EHM/FM individual scout system as it is a lot of micro management. But no final decision on this part.

Originally Posted by MacPhal

I'm not looking for these questions to be answered now, but this will be the type of things ill be looking for as the game develops.

Expect a lot of Blogs/Road to Release activities as we move closer to release. And we love to hang out here so expect a lot of talking about the game on the forums.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Sorry for all the post in a row but I want to keep up with answers.

Originally Posted by OutS|der

will this include historical or online like OOTP does now or will it just be the modern league?

Online leagues (like in OOTP) are a pretty good bet and should be available with the initial release. The historical topic was discussed in this thread and a lot depends on the possibility to find (or create) a historical stats dabatabe we can use.

[Muppetus Galacticus]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

The very least you can do is changing the Salary Cap by hand. Stuff like Team Market, Fan Interest or Arena Quality will all be a big part of the game.

One of the things that I really wish wasn't hard-coded into EHM and a reason why I am so hyped for an OOTP-Hockey

[Smetana]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

This is one of the few parts that is more in design phase then already coded. I'm not the biggest fan of the EHM/FM individual scout system as it is a lot of micro management. But no final decision on this part.

Here's an area where adopting more of an OOTP baseball approach could be the solution in reducing the tedium of individual scouting.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

Online leagues (like in OOTP) are a pretty good bet and should be available with the initial release. The historical topic was discussed in this thread and a lot depends on the possibility to find (or create) a historical stats dabatabe we can use.

I'm not sure how interested I would be in a game that only allowed for simulation of the modern game. A lot has changed in hockey in just the last thirty years, let alone the last ninety. The kind of game that Wayne Gretzky was playing back in the 1980s or even Mario Lemieux was playing in the 1990s doesn't exist any more. Last year, only one player had 50 goals and only one had over 100 points. In 1984-85, nine players had 50 or more goals, and one player had over 200 points. So you don't have to go back to the Toe Blake era to find a different kind of hockey being played. I'd hate to be limited to a modern simulation that ignored those changes.

As for the stats, they've been keeping the same stats since the very beginnings: goals, assists, shots on goal, saves, penalty minutes, plus/minus, etc. There may be some specialized stats, like playing time or blocked shots, that are of relatively recent vintage, but then that's the same story in baseball and OOTP manages somehow to do a pretty good job of simulating games that pre-date Sabermetrics. I would imagine that defensive stats are the sketchiest -- plus/minus is certainly an imperfect way of approximating a player's defensive value -- but again that's also the weakest area of stats for baseball. If the bright folks working on OOTP can work around that limitation, I'm sure the brilliant minds behind the Working Title hockey game can come up with something just as good.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I'm not sure how interested I would be in a game that only allowed for simulation of the modern game. A lot has changed in hockey in just the last thirty years, let alone the last ninety. The kind of game that Wayne Gretzky was playing back in the 1980s or even Mario Lemieux was playing in the 1990s doesn't exist any more. Last year, only one player had 50 goals and only one had over 100 points. In 1984-85, nine players had 50 or more goals, and one player had over 200 points. So you don't have to go back to the Toe Blake era to find a different kind of hockey being played. I'd hate to be limited to a modern simulation that ignored those changes.

As for the stats, they've been keeping the same stats since the very beginnings: goals, assists, shots on goal, saves, penalty minutes, plus/minus, etc. There may be some specialized stats, like playing time or blocked shots, that are of relatively recent vintage, but then that's the same story in baseball and OOTP manages somehow to do a pretty good job of simulating games that pre-date Sabermetrics. I would imagine that defensive stats are the sketchiest -- plus/minus is certainly an imperfect way of approximating a player's defensive value -- but again that's also the weakest area of stats for baseball. If the bright folks working on OOTP can work around that limitation, I'm sure the brilliant minds behind the Working Title hockey game can come up with something just as good.

There's a number of stats that weren't kept until the first big expansion back in 67/68.

Now, depending on if the game will have the ability to generate ratings based on stats like OOTP can, then that may be a hinderance. No doubt though, a work around could be found in those instances.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

There's a number of stats that weren't kept until the first big expansion back in 67/68.

Now, depending on if the game will have the ability to generate ratings based on stats like OOTP can, then that may be a hinderance. No doubt though, a work around could be found in those instances.

Yes, that's my point. For instance, I don't think anyone kept track of blocked shots until relatively recently, so in-game defensive ratings that are based on blocked shots stats will need to rely on something else for those seasons when nobody was recording that stat. But it can be done. Nobody was keeping track of the number of pitches that pitchers were throwing until fairly recently, yet OOTP still manages to have a rating for pitcher stamina.

[RoPa]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

This is one of the few parts that is more in design phase then already coded. I'm not the biggest fan of the EHM/FM individual scout system as it is a lot of micro management. But no final decision on this part.

I'm very curious as to what the scouting will be like in the game.
The scouting for hockey is something I've always been fascinated with, if there was a hockey game where you were just the scout I would buy it.

This site has some great info about being a hockey scout:
The Hockey Source, Your Resource for Minor Hockey

A Scout's Life from The Hockey News:
The Hockey News: ARCHIVES: A Scout's Life

[Sebastian Palkowski]

For the historical stuff:

For baseball a great offline database is available (Lahman DB) which is used to generate any season from 1901 up until today.

As far as I know no offline database is available for hockey. The only option we have is to build one ourselfs, which will take some time.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

The hockey game will have no influence on a possible ITP2.

Yeah, what I meant was, I would rather OOTPD spend it's time working on ITP2, rather than on a new hockey game.

But the hockey game is still a cool idea. Just not as cool as ITP 2. lol.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

The very least you can do is changing the Salary Cap by hand. Stuff like Team Market, Fan Interest or Arena Quality will all be a big part of the game.

In regards to markets, I will strongly suggest that the nature of city markets and the underlying economics be made dynamic. That is, for example, the addition of a second club in the same city (either in the same league or in a competing league) should have an effect on economics of both clubs in terms of attendance, revenue, etc.

OOTP itself is not at that stage yet, but it's a direction it ought to go in because it makes the world created by the user feel much more alive and real as it responds to changes made within that world (e.g. creating a new league with some of the clubs in cities which already have teams in an established league).

The economic aspect is one I did a fair amount of research on for baseball. Along the way I picked up some hockey financial data too.

[outrider64]

I found this site about player ratings. The contributors have come with some in depth formulas. They have ratings available for 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 as well as a three year rating for 2007-10.
I am not sure if these ratings can be used in the new hockey game, but it makes for some interesting reading.

Here is the link:http://hockeyanalysis.com/2010/12/15...ew-stats-site/

[RoPa]

Originally Posted by outrider64

I found this site about player ratings. The contributors have come with some in depth formulas. They have ratings available for 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 as well as a three year rating for 2007-10.
I am not sure if these ratings can be used in the new hockey game, but it makes for some interesting reading.

Here is the link:Introducing New Stats Site | Hockey Analysis

That is a good site, I also like this one:
http://www.quanthockey.com/

[rudel.dietrich]

I thought EHM had a great and easy to use scouting system.
I could tell my scouts to scout the draft or individual countries or individual leagues or individual players with ease.

The OOTP scouting system is one of the few failed features that the game ever had. It simply never came together for me or very many other people.

I would hope that this new franchise would use a model close to the EHM model.

[21C]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski

As far as I know no offline database is available for hockey. The only option we have is to build one ourselfs, which will take some time.

I had previously posted that a downloadable database already exists. This is an excerpt from its readme:

The Hockey Databank project allows for free usage of its data, including the production of a commercial product based upon the data, subject to the terms outlined below.

The data contains the following:

1.1 References and acknowledgements
1.2 Revision history
2.0 Tables
2.1 Master table
2.2 Scoring table
2.3 ScoringSup table
2.4 ScoringSC table
2.5 ScoringShootout table
2.6 Goalies table
2.7 GoaliesSC table
2.8 GoaliesShootout table
2.9 AwardsPlayers table
2.10 AwardsCoaches table
2.11 AwardsMisc table
2.12 Coaches table
2.13 Teams table
2.14 TeamsPost table
2.15 TeamsSC table
2.16 TeamsHalf table
2.17 TeamSplits table
2.18 TeamVsTeam table
2.19 SeriesPost table
2.20 CombinedShutouts table

The file is available from hockey-databank : hockey-databank

[RoPa]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I thought EHM had a great and easy to use scouting system.
I could tell my scouts to scout the draft or individual countries or individual leagues or individual players with ease.

The OOTP scouting system is one of the few failed features that the game ever had. It simply never came together for me or very many other people.

I would hope that this new franchise would use a model close to the EHM model.

I agree, scouting is very important to building a successful hockey franchise and modelling it after EHM would be a great start.

[CeeBee]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I thought EHM had a great and easy to use scouting system.
I could tell my scouts to scout the draft or individual countries or individual leagues or individual players with ease.

The OOTP scouting system is one of the few failed features that the game ever had. It simply never came together for me or very many other people.

I would hope that this new franchise would use a model close to the EHM model.

My feelings as well.

[DCHepler25]

Just read all 199 posts in this thread and I am very excited about this project. I have been waiting for an OOTP style hockey sim for years. I have never played EHM, but I like the idea that those familiar with it are freely giving their advice here.

Sent you an email Sebastian and can't wait to start helping wherever you need it!

Go Pens!