ootp12 killing online leagues

[Rebington]

When is it ok to complain?

I'm a huge fan of the ootp series. Clearly the developers of the game work incredibly hard and genuinely care about the 'ootp community'. I've never minded delays in game launch, especially when ootp has had a great track record of being released almost without bugs.

However, ootp12 is the worst thing to happen to online leagues for a long time (ironic considering improvements to the online side of the game was meant to be a key selling point for the new game). The whole OOOL thing was released just not working at all, and at every turn experienced league commissioners have run into problems causing leagues to compeltely halt. A new patch comes out and and solves certain issues, whilst creating a whole new set of problems.

I'm sure some leagues have come through the transition from 11 to 12 relatively okay, but I know at least four long term leagues where interest has dwindled as commissions struggle to run regular sims. Meanwhile Fidel and a few other extremely helpful ootp board members try and make sense of the continuing bugs and problems.

I'm not sure the point of this post.. as it's not much different from other critical threads.

I think ootp is great value for money (eventually 12 will be too!) and I'm sure I'll keep buying the game - I guess it's just to say how disappointing ootp12 has been and that in my eyes the trust the ootp development team has built over the years is somewhat tainted by releasing a completely unfinished game.

[tward13]

Some leagues can't even get started because of their intent to use all of the features, including scouting. Getting close to two months now and still dead in the water.

And this is a new 2011 roster league relying on the patience of 30 GMs to hang in there.

[ELDoro]

I will say my league has a lot of GMs that are brand new to the OOTP series and I'm having trouble trying to explain to them that this is not what I have come to expect from OOTP and dont want them to get the wrong impression.

[RBLwebguy]

Originally Posted by Rebington

When is it ok to complain?

I'm a huge fan of the ootp series. Clearly the developers of the game work incredibly hard and genuinely care about the 'ootp community'. I've never minded delays in game launch, especially when ootp has had a great track record of being released almost without bugs.

However, ootp12 is the worst thing to happen to online leagues for a long time (ironic considering improvements to the online side of the game was meant to be a key selling point for the new game). The whole OOOL thing was released just not working at all, and at every turn experienced league commissioners have run into problems causing leagues to compeltely halt. A new patch comes out and and solves certain issues, whilst creating a whole new set of problems.

I'm sure some leagues have come through the transition from 11 to 12 relatively okay, but I know at least four long term leagues where interest has dwindled as commissions struggle to run regular sims. Meanwhile Fidel and a few other extremely helpful ootp board members try and make sense of the continuing bugs and problems.

I'm not sure the point of this post.. as it's not much different from other critical threads.

I think ootp is great value for money (eventually 12 will be too!) and I'm sure I'll keep buying the game - I guess it's just to say how disappointing ootp12 has been and that in my eyes the trust the ootp development team has built over the years is somewhat tainted by releasing a completely unfinished game.

Really? OOOL will be fine eventually and from what I understand things are getting worked out now or have been through the latest patch. This is a bit harsh. The problem with this release was the lateness which was probably part due to iOOTP but regardless had Markus and Co. kept the game longer in testing he would have been lynched by all the people that pre-ordered. He said the release was going to be in the spring and technically before June 21st is spring. Online leagues should always be cautious before converting over as histically there have been 2-3 patches. Trust me, these guys didn't do this on purpose.

While I understand your frustration, all you and any other commishes and players can do is report bugs and help test them when each patch is released.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by RBLwebguy

Online leagues should always be cautious before converting over as histically there have been 2-3 patches

This is the umpteenth time I have seen this. (I don't play online and generally, when I actually buy a copy of the game, I switch all of my worlds over to the new version as soon as I can regardless of what issues may arise. So I totally understand the perils of how a new version of OOTP works.) But people need to stop giving this reply when someone complains about things not working as advertised. Even if OOTPD is a tiny company, "Wait a patch or two or three and then things will really be working right" is a crap answer. Why should people wait 2-3 patches for a game to work as advertised? Because that's how OOTPD works historically? That's just flat out silly. How is that supposed to look at all good to new customers? Or to old customers who waiver as to whether to buy the next version? Yes, almost all games put out patches all of the time. That's modern gaming. But when a specific feature of a game (especially a a game like OOTP) doesn't work as advertised don't tell people to wait. Don't tell people to relax and be patient. Let them be mad - because they should be. They paid money for a broken feature. Let them vent without telling them they made a poor choice by actually switching over to the newest version that advertised new and wonderful things. Let them light fires under OOTPDs butt with their frustration - fires under the butt are good things even for tiny companies. Discontent is not a bad thing, especially when the discontent is over something promised but not delivered.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

This is the umpteenth time I have seen this. (I don't play online and generally, when I actually buy a copy of the game, I switch all of my worlds over to the new version as soon as I can regardless of what issues may arise. So I totally understand the perils of how a new version of OOTP works.) But people need to stop giving this reply when someone complains about things not working as advertised. Even if OOTPD is a tiny company, "Wait a patch or two or three and then things will really be working right" is a crap answer. Why should people wait 2-3 patches for a game to work as advertised? Because that's how OOTPD works historically? That's just flat out silly. How is that supposed to look at all good to new customers? Or to old customers who waiver as to whether to buy the next version? Yes, almost all games put out patches all of the time. That's modern gaming. But when a specific feature of a game (especially a a game like OOTP) doesn't work as advertised don't tell people to wait. Don't tell people to relax and be patient. Let them be mad - because they should be. They paid money for a broken feature. Let them vent without telling them they made a poor choice by actually switching over to the newest version that advertised new and wonderful things. Let them light fires under OOTPDs butt with their frustration - fires under the butt are good things even for tiny companies. Discontent is not a bad thing, especially when the discontent is over something promised but not delivered.

Fine. They can switch as soon as possible knowing it may very well cause problems. They can't say they weren't warned.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Fine. They can switch as soon as possible knowing it may very well cause problems. They can't say they weren't warned.

What kind of good business is that?

The new advertising slogan for OOTP 12:
"The next great version of OOTP - switching over from OOTP 11 may very well cause problems, but at least you've been warned - at least until we patch it 2-3 times."

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

What kind of good business is that?

The new advertising slogan for OOTP 12:
"The next great version of OOTP - switching over from OOTP 11 may very well cause problems, but at least you've been warned - at least until we patch it 2-3 times."

I know you are joking, but there is some truth to it. I think from now on I am going to wait until the fall each year to switch versions. There are just too many little problems in the first 4 or so months after a release.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

What kind of good business is that?

The new advertising slogan for OOTP 12:
"The next great version of OOTP - switching over from OOTP 11 may very well cause problems, but at least you've been warned - at least until we patch it 2-3 times."

Every version has needed patches as long as I can remember. That's just a fact, like it or not. So it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone when there is a problem.

Just about every game I've bought over the years has required patches so it isn't as if OOTP is the only one and I am neither surprised nor upset when a new game or a new version of a game comes out with problems.

At the very least people can check out the forums when a game comes out to see what the feedback is on it before they buy it or throw themselves into it.

There is a tech support area to write up tickets for problems found. That seems to be to be a better way of getting things fixed then coming into the main forums and complaining to people who can't do anything about it. Just a thought.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I know you are joking, but there is some truth to it. I think from now on I am going to wait until the fall each year to switch versions. There are just too many little problems in the first 4 or so months after a release.

That's Markus's ploy to make people skip the discounted pre-order and pay full price you know.

[tward13]

In the haste to jump in and defend OOTP at all costs some are ignoring the fact that these are not all converted OOTP11 leagues.

Some are brand new 2011 roster leagues. In many cases this is NOT a matter of people knowing they should continue using the old version. These are people who cannot run a league that can ONLY be run in OOTP12.

This is affecting customers who cannot use a game with advertised functionality that they paid for 7 months ago.

Many of these owners do not care about iOOTP or whatever it is. They were not told when they were offered the chance to purchase early (and support OOTP) that the game they were buying may be late and defective because another product was taking precedence.

And tell me all you want about patches and what happened in the past and all but fact is the game is defective.

And tell me all you want about entering support tickets, which at least I got an apology for one that sat unnoticed for over a month. No word on another I posted weeks ago. (Yes I did escalate them)

There are commissioners who have paid money for sites for their leagues. There are dozens of GMs waiting to use their games. Yep, it squeaked in for spring, but now summer is half gone and the game is still unusable for some leagues.

And we wait and wait.

No need to hear from the solo guys since these issues may be irrelevent to you.

[Rebington]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Every version has needed patches as long as I can remember. That's just a fact, like it or not. So it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone when there is a problem.

There is a tech support area to write up tickets for problems found. That seems to be to be a better way of getting things fixed then coming into the main forums and complaining to people who can't do anything about it. Just a thought.

Just because people are critical here it doesnt mean they havent been constructively working through the problems, writing up tickets and being patient.

As for 'warnings' that online leagues should wait for a few patches before converting over - i absolutely agree and maybe a few leagues got overly excited about switching because of the new features directly aimed at making it easier to run and participate in online leagues. Maybe we've been spoilt with the last two ootp releases - where there were little or no issues. Certainly going from 10 to 11 it was a matter of one (maybe two?) patches, and the very few problems took a matter of weeks to resolve.

Personally I think the whole OOOL mess, and the other problems leagues continue to face so long after the release date is really disappointing and not what I expect from ootp. As much as I'll continue to support the game and it's developers there's nothing wrong with voicing disappointment and frustration. GMs often go from playing solo games for a long time before finding an online league (which in my experience are so much more interesting than solo leagues) - if ootp12 was my first experience of playing this game in an online league I'd probably go back to solo leagues very quickly which is a real shame.

Again I didnt start this thread to make smart comments, doubt the integrity or hard work of the development team (whose commitment to excellent customer service has always impressed me in the past) or make the 'I'm a paying customer and I'm angry!' kind of points I've seen on the main board recently - just to express my disappointment and reiterate (although I'm sure Markus and his team already know) that there are some excellent online leagues slowly dying because it's taking too long to resolve all the issues.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Every version has needed patches as long as I can remember. That's just a fact, like it or not. So it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone when there is a problem.

Just about every game I've bought over the years has required patches so it isn't as if OOTP is the only one and I am neither surprised nor upset when a new game or a new version of a game comes out with problems.

At the very least people can check out the forums when a game comes out to see what the feedback is on it before they buy it or throw themselves into it.

There is a tech support area to write up tickets for problems found. That seems to be to be a better way of getting things fixed then coming into the main forums and complaining to people who can't do anything about it. Just a thought.

I have bought many a game where there has been bugs or gliches that needed fixing. That is an unfortunate part of modern gaming. But I have only once ever bought a game and experienced a bug so bad that I could not play the game the way it should be played. And I was frustrated and furious. And I never picked the game back up. Who cares if that's the norm? Who cares that it's "just a fact" of gaming? It's frustrating and annoying. And if I were to go on that developers site and vent my frustration and someone said to me, "Hey, buddy, that's just the way it is. Just wait for the next patch or two and it'll get fixed," I'd been even more annoyed and upset. And then if someone said to me, "Well that was silly of you even playing the game before it was patched a time or two" I'd be even more furious. People need to stop stop telling people to stop being mad at the game when it doesn't play as advertised. Point them to the tech forum, great. Explain the (some might say poor) history of OOTPD in getting out the "best" version of the latest version 4 months after release. But don't tell them (especially new customers) to not be mad and frustrated when a game does not work as advertised.

EDIT: And now I'm done.

[damientheomen3]

The problems this year can very well be attributed to the shorter beta testing period that had to happen because of iOOTP. It sucks, but the last patch has always been the best in my experience and Markus is getting to work on OOTP 13 early, so at least next year's game will be better. It does suck that OOOL leagues aren't working well, but the problem has been noted, and the response has been seen. Is there really a point of continuing to complain about it? (not directed to the OP, moreso the repeat complainers)

[s0ni42]

I have been playing this game for some time now and fully support the franchise and its developers.

However, I do think it is ridiculous for people to ridicule posters who are frustrated with a broken game. Spending $40 on a video game will not prevent me from eating for a week, but that doesn't mean it is trash cash.

What is truly sad, is that in my online league there are a lot of first time online league owners who are having to deal with this issue. I try and tell them to stay patient, but understandably this year's version is all they know and it is crap to this point (from an online league that uses scouting's perspective).

Errors of this magnitude will likely have a largely negative impact on pre-sales for 1; so we can complain about somewhat of a waste of $40 but I imagine this company will lose much more in the wake....actually, I am paying for website hosting so $40 and some change

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by s0ni42

I have been playing this game for some time now and fully support the franchise and its developers.

However, I do think it is ridiculous for people to ridicule posters who are frustrated with a broken game. Spending $40 on a video game will not prevent me from eating for a week, but that doesn't mean it is trash cash.

What is truly sad, is that in my online league there are a lot of first time online league owners who are having to deal with this issue. I try and tell them to stay patient, but understandably this year's version is all they know and it is crap to this point (from an online league that uses scouting's perspective).

Errors of this magnitude will likely have a largely negative impact on pre-sales for 1; so we can complain about somewhat of a waste of $40 but I imagine this company will lose much more in the wake....actually, I am paying for website hosting so $40 and some change

I'm not ridiculing anyone. I'm just saying that it's obvious given the most recent update that Markus and co. know very well the problems of the online leagues, and thus, continuing to say 'it's ridiculous why has this happened why hasn't it been fixed' is needless.

[RandyTiger]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

I'm not ridiculing anyone. I'm just saying that it's obvious given the most recent update that Markus and co. know very well the problems of the online leagues, and thus, continuing to say 'it's ridiculous why has this happened why hasn't it been fixed' is needless.

Completely agree. Andreas is currently on vacation right now, and Markus has only gotten back a week from his a little over a week ago. The issue is still listed on the PT list, so they're definitely aware of it.

I should note that Andreas is the one who handles online issues, so it may be a bit before we see resolution to this.

As I've suggested to others, if you really want to ease your frustration a bit, start a short-season (let's say, 40 or 60 games) OOTP11 league, or try a Japanese or Mexican league just for the heck of it. Who knows, you might just have a bit of fun while we're waiting.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by RBLwebguy

Really? OOOL will be fine eventually and from what I understand things are getting worked out now or have been through the latest patch. This is a bit harsh. The problem with this release was the lateness which was probably part due to iOOTP but regardless had Markus and Co. kept the game longer in testing he would have been lynched by all the people that pre-ordered. He said the release was going to be in the spring and technically before June 21st is spring. Online leagues should always be cautious before converting over as histically there have been 2-3 patches. Trust me, these guys didn't do this on purpose.

While I understand your frustration, all you and any other commishes and players can do is report bugs and help test them when each patch is released.

How is his post harsh? He was very courteous, didn't slander the company or product, and pointed out a clear and legitimate problem. And that's harsh? Right.....

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Every version has needed patches as long as I can remember. That's just a fact, like it or not. So it shouldn't be any surprise to anyone when there is a problem.

Just about every game I've bought over the years has required patches so it isn't as if OOTP is the only one and I am neither surprised nor upset when a new game or a new version of a game comes out with problems.

At the very least people can check out the forums when a game comes out to see what the feedback is on it before they buy it or throw themselves into it.

There is a tech support area to write up tickets for problems found. That seems to be to be a better way of getting things fixed then coming into the main forums and complaining to people who can't do anything about it. Just a thought.

So if everyone's going to wait and check the forums for feedback I guess then we can kill the "pre-order and save money" idea?

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by RandyTiger

Completely agree. Andreas is currently on vacation right now, and Markus has only gotten back a week from his a little over a week ago. The issue is still listed on the PT list, so they're definitely aware of it.

I should note that Andreas is the one who handles online issues, so it may be a bit before we see resolution to this.

As I've suggested to others, if you really want to ease your frustration a bit, start a short-season (let's say, 40 or 60 games) OOTP11 league, or try a Japanese or Mexican league just for the heck of it. Who knows, you might just have a bit of fun while we're waiting.

Excellent idea - we bought OOTP12, over 3 months ago it was released, and now it's being suggested we play OOTP11 while we wait for 12 to be fixed. Ludicrous.