The only baseball sim I've ever gotten addicted to...

[Pan]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Not exactly 1985, but actually an amalgamation of the early to mid 80s.

To me, that was the Golden Age of Baseball Statistics. You had a little of almost everything possible from an individual standpoint. Players giving .400 a scare, but .300 still meant something. Some guys nearing 50 homers, but 18 still meant you had plus power and seeing a home run live was special, cause it didn't happen everyday. Guys stealing 100 bases, pitchers winning 20, pitching 250 innings, closers saving 40.

Plus, it seemed like a time when a game was more than just a home run derby contest; it was a real clash of philosophies with teams built very differently (because that's what they wanted; not because the Yankees signed all the good players). You had the Red Sox and Milwaukee trying to pound everyone into submission, but you also had the Cardinals with lots of speed and defense and Jack Clark.

I know Qdog's post was from a few days ago, but reading it struck me as exactly how I feel about the 80s. I grew up during that decade in St. Louis, watching the Cardinals play with the best team (IMHO) they have had in my lifetime (1982 especially - I still remember jumping up and down on the couch and my mother yelling at me). But more than that, the whole experience just felt "good". It was the whole "baseball and apple pie" sort of feeling for me. I admit, that was probably more due to my age at the time and how everything seemed more innocent, but I think there was something real to it too.

However, I think everyone probably feels the same about the game during whichever decade was part of their youth and as with everything, baseball changes and moves on and we have to move on with it. I still love the game and can't imagine it ever evolving into a game that I dislike. Good stuff indeed.

[gehrig38]

Catch up post, and no flaming or cussing off of this. Markus completely had my permission to use the quote and tell people I play, I've always been a HUGE fan of game makers, designers and players of games they love. Since SL, ASL and PB back in the 80's, it's the reason Multi-Man Publishing, Inc. > Home was founded, to save those titles. APBA and Strat also.

The only 'problem' I had was sharing the forum stuff, and not for reasons you might think. I don't care if fans come here and talk trash, that will never bother me. But there are certain members of the media that could take the Horner stuff I shared and turn that into some bull**** news piece, and that would suck.

I post because these forums, while public, really aren't. The only folks trolling them are generally people that like games I like, even if they don't like me we do share common interests...

Anyway, onto cooler stuff.
So I got my league started, took over the Sox. 16 team league, 5 minor league teams , AAA, AA, A, SS and rookie league. NCAA, JUCO and HS feeders. I am tweaking (or will be) things as I go. Ages is my concern. trying to get right setup.

I'm 38-29, 1.5 games back of the Pirates after the first draft (they're tied with the Cubs btw) and the Tigers are 2 up on the O's in the other league. Like old time baseball, league is stacked with talent, 80's, while awesome, aren't the end all be all due to so much offense.

My scouts found 2 awesome talents in the Domincan, a 15 year old reliever and a 17 year old OF who are about to start their first seasons in rookie league.

West Boca HS beat Pearl City HS (both Florida HS!) for the NAIA National Title, Carlos "Icebox" Rodriguez of Punahou HS (Hawaii) won the national batting crown at .480 (as a 15 year old FRESHMAN!). Manny Rios of Indianapolis Catherdral HS won the NAIA HR title with 22 as a 15 year old Freshman as well! Both have huge futures if my scout is pegging them right. Rio Hondo JC swept San Mateo JC to win the National JUCO WS. Tim Polo won the JUCO Batting title at .400 for Brevard JC, and Eddic Slaon and Randy Waters Tied for the HR title at 18. In NCAA news the Razorbacks of Arkansas defeated the Columbia Lions! 2 games to none to win the NCAA WS. LF Mark Hopkins won the NCAA Batting Title with a .430 average while Lawrence Davis of UCONN set the NCAA HR mark in year 1 at 22.

Some great advice in managing my feeders, I'll go back to fix the settings to not fire GMs and Managers I think. Also WAY too many suspensions for fighting, it's over done in my opinion.

In the draft I was surprised to see the player I had pegged as the best bat in the draft (after the Catcher I was lusting for was taken) available to me at 12. Gabriele Barrios, a 3B, was selected as the Sox first ever #1 pick and is likely to finalize a deal shortly to sign and begin his pro career.

For you guys, with regards to pitching. HS, JUCO and College stud SP with 2 pitches, I give pretty much every one a 3rd pitch, a common sense 3rd pitch, and set the rating for it very low. Everyone has one, and for the elite guys I give them a shot at making that 3rd pitch be an out pitch by giving it a decent ceiling.

[Pan]

Originally Posted by gehrig38

For you guys, with regards to pitching. HS, JUCO and College stud SP with 2 pitches, I give pretty much every one a 3rd pitch, a common sense 3rd pitch, and set the rating for it very low. Everyone has one, and for the elite guys I give them a shot at making that 3rd pitch be an out pitch by giving it a decent ceiling.

I have seen you mention this in a couple other posts but my question is (to whomever knows the answer) what would make a logical third pitch? Simple stuff like a pitcher with a fastball and slider could use an off-speed changeup or curve, I assume, but where would one go to find out more information regarding a pitcher's arsenal? If I were a two-pitch pitcher in HS, what would my coaches tell me to work on?

[gehrig38]

Originally Posted by Pan

I have seen you mention this in a couple other posts but my question is (to whomever knows the answer) what would make a logical third pitch? Simple stuff like a pitcher with a fastball and slider could use an off-speed changeup or curve, I assume, but where would one go to find out more information regarding a pitcher's arsenal? If I were a two-pitch pitcher in HS, what would my coaches tell me to work on?

Assume fastball as primary.
With a CB I go split, or change, with a slider I go change or curveball.
Two "slow" pitches to me mean one is a big breaker. replace split with change, same effect imo, in this game, in RL split is a K pitch, change is, well, a change of speeds that some guys are good enough at to make it a K pitch.
3rd pitch, to me, also depends on the FB velocity.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by LeiterFanatic

*watches Curt Schilling quietly exit the thread he started and leave the community he just joined*

We have private threads now? Sorry, I had no idea. My bad.

[oman19]

Originally Posted by gehrig38

The only 'problem' I had was sharing the forum stuff, and not for reasons you might think. I don't care if fans come here and talk trash, that will never bother me. But there are certain members of the media that could take the Horner stuff I shared and turn that into some bull**** news piece, and that would suck.

I post because these forums, while public, really aren't. The only folks trolling them are generally people that like games I like, even if they don't like me we do share common interests...

Life in the 24 hour news cycle kind of sucks. That has to be weird for someone like you to always have to watch what they share and say for fear of someone running with it or taking it out of context.

Just was watching the ESPN 30 for 30 and saw the one on the '04 Sox for the first time. Love the "why not us" stuff. Was that all player home footage they had?

On to your league I'm curious as to if you've done jerseys and logos for your feeders. Might be a cool project for some of the modders on here to work with you on.

Any thoughts on when you get everything set up the way you like it uploading the template to Padrefans site?

Thanks Curt for interacting with us likeminded guys.

[Pan]

Originally Posted by gehrig38

Assume fastball as primary.
With a CB I go split, or change, with a slider I go change or curveball.
Two "slow" pitches to me mean one is a big breaker. replace split with change, same effect imo, in this game, in RL split is a K pitch, change is, well, a change of speeds that some guys are good enough at to make it a K pitch.
3rd pitch, to me, also depends on the FB velocity.

Thank you much for that. What you have been saying makes a lot of sense regarding the two-pitch SP's and I would like to start taking a look at that myself (very slowly, I don't know how much change like this could upset the balance they have worked so hard to build into the game). However, I want to do this realistically and therefore wanted to make sure I had some idea before I did anything.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by gehrig38

For you guys, with regards to pitching. HS, JUCO and College stud SP with 2 pitches, I give pretty much every one a 3rd pitch, a common sense 3rd pitch, and set the rating for it very low. Everyone has one, and for the elite guys I give them a shot at making that 3rd pitch be an out pitch by giving it a decent ceiling.

Originally Posted by Pan

Thank you much for that. What you have been saying makes a lot of sense regarding the two-pitch SP's and I would like to start taking a look at that myself (very slowly, I don't know how much change like this could upset the balance they have worked so hard to build into the game). However, I want to do this realistically and therefore wanted to make sure I had some idea before I did anything.

The third pitch is something I would like to see for the two pitch reliever with good stamina. However I have thought it would have to be done with the balance of the game in mind. In other words if more of these guys were able to have a third pitch then maybe fewer of them should be created. I think it is probably a hard thing for Markus to put in the game and at the same time keep balance.


At the current time I have a stud in my MLB bullpen that will be my closer next year. However with a third pitch he would be my #1 starter. Same goes for a 20 year old I'm starting at AAA but will be in the bullpen on the MLB level due to only having two pitches. If both of these guys added a third pitch it would affect the balance in the division.

Of course it would all be relative if all of the feeder pitchers were to get a third pitch. But then wouldn't the league become overly pitching dominant like 1967-68? Sure league total modifiers could bring the hitting back up against these dominant pitchers but then whats the point of a 80 rated P on the 20/80 scale if he can't dominate? Maybe I'm over thinking it and it will all work fine.

Curt, IMHO it will be interesting to see how this works out in your league since you are giving all of the stud feeder pitchers a third pitch. I hope you will report back on how you think this affects your league.

[gehrig38]

Originally Posted by Pan

Thank you much for that. What you have been saying makes a lot of sense regarding the two-pitch SP's and I would like to start taking a look at that myself (very slowly, I don't know how much change like this could upset the balance they have worked so hard to build into the game). However, I want to do this realistically and therefore wanted to make sure I had some idea before I did anything.

Here's the thing, and I don't know how to portray this in 'code form' as I don't know how the engine works.
Every pitcher, with almost NO exception, has a third pitch. Whether that's good enough to register I don't know.
I see how it's simplified here, and likely for good reason, in that 2 pitches, even with awesome stuff, can get you hammered as a SP in the ML.
But I almost like that I need to go in and 'work' the superstar pitchers in giving them a third pitch.
BTW the Sox are playing VERY well right now, 7-4 last 11, .5 game back. All but my top pick have signed. I think i am going to be adding another rookie level club this offseason, and tweaking my feeder settings.

[Pan]

I could see where a two-pitch SP would get hammered in the majors as you just can't keep throwing the same two pitches for 5+ innings and not expect to get a few knocked out of the park, or at least they're going to get wise to your pitching after they have been at the plate for the third time that evening against you.

I also wonder, though, how quickly will the game work in a third pitch for a pitcher who consistently starts games in the minors. There was another thread that I had posted into a month or so ago regarding MR's with very long stamina and great stats, except they only had two pitches. I actually placed a couple of those MRs into starting roles and they both excelled right away, one even pitching a CG shutout.

What I'm afraid of doing is upsetting a balance that may already be worked into the game. If these HS, college, and Single A guys will do alright with two pitches while they are developing a third then I'd rather not touch them. But if they're going to fizzle in the minors only because they never developed a third pitch (whereas you say in RL that simply wouldn't happen as everyone has a third pitch, regardless of how weak it may be), then I can give them a bit of a tweak to bring it back in line and keep them from ending up as a career minor leaguer when they really should be high tier players.

Anyway, enough rambling. Something for me to test and simulate to see how it all plays out. Thanks again for the input.

EDIT: I forgot to say that I remember back in OOTP 5 (I think?) we had a lot more control during the off season in how our players developed. At least I remember modifying stats or something...it's been awhile and I tend to get my games mixed up over the years. Or something that we could ask to have brought in future versions? What I like about that idea is we (as managers and coaches) should have some control over what we are teaching our players. If we would like for a certain SP to develop a slider or a curve...or maybe a slurve...we could have them start throwing one in the off season (not sure if one really wants to try developing a new pitch mid-season but sounds dangerous to me) and see if it develops. I know the game has a chance for pitchers to develop new pitches automatically over time but would be nice to guide that pitcher as their manager/coach.

[Questdog]

I've never been a fan of the 2-pitch limitations on starting ability, but it is better than the old way of just making guys either starters or relievers with no hope of the relievers ever being able to start games.

Mario Soto, my favorite pitcher of all-time, was a two-pitch pitcher (fastball/changeup) who had great success as a starter. When some idiot finally convinced him he needed a third pitch, he started trying to throw a slider and soon blew out his elbow......

By the way, I've never understood why pitchers throw a slider in the first place. It seems to be the cause of a good deal of arm miseries......

[gehrig38]

FWIW I would grade myself as a 2, 2.5 pitch pitcher. On my best nights, my most dominant, I was FB and Split. 125 pitches I'd throw 90-110 fastballs, the rest splits. I'd argue the most I threw my third pitch, which was either a slider or Curveball depending on the night, was 15-20% and that would be an insanely high number.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I've never been a fan of the 2-pitch limitations on starting ability, but it is better than the old way of just making guys either starters or relievers with no hope of the relievers ever being able to start games.

Mario Soto, my favorite pitcher of all-time, was a two-pitch pitcher (fastball/changeup) who had great success as a starter. When some idiot finally convinced him he needed a third pitch, he started trying to throw a slider and soon blew out his elbow......

By the way, I've never understood why pitchers throw a slider in the first place. It seems to be the cause of a good deal of arm miseries......

There's a theory that Pete Rose's mismanagement killed Mario Soto's career, which seems more likely to me than it being killed by the addition of a curveball and a slider to his pitching arsenal.

See Pete Rose Killed Mario Soto's Career | Bleacher Report

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Questdog

By the way, I've never understood why pitchers throw a slider in the first place. It seems to be the cause of a good deal of arm miseries......

I'll tell you why they throw a slider, I found out exactly why when I first encountered one as a freshman in college: they're hard to hit.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

There's a theory that Pete Rose's mismanagement killed Mario Soto's career, which seems more likely to me than it being killed by the addition of a curveball and a slider to his pitching arsenal.

See Pete Rose Killed Mario Soto's Career | Bleacher Report

I think that's stupid. Rose and, especially, pitching coach Don Gullett were big proponents of the 4-man rotation. Under Rose, Soto pitched FEWER innings per season and FEWER per start than he had in the 3 years prior to Rose's arrival.

[Questdog]

Plus the fact that in 1985, the only full season Soto pitched under Rose, he was MUCH more effective on 3-days rest than 4 days.....

[Marberi]

Originally Posted by gehrig38

FWIW I would grade myself as a 2, 2.5 pitch pitcher. On my best nights, my most dominant, I was FB and Split. 125 pitches I'd throw 90-110 fastballs, the rest splits. I'd argue the most I threw my third pitch, which was either a slider or Curveball depending on the night, was 15-20% and that would be an insanely high number.

I can see this working IRL for elite hurlers such as yourself, some of your former teammates like the Big Unit and Pedro or guys like King Félix and/or Verlander these days. Because a couple of great pitches can really give hitters fits; especially when you have a dominant heater.

In OOTP, however, I think any SP needs 3 decent pitches, at least. Otherwise, they'll be 1-1.5 starts as SP's, regardless of their stamina and the ratings of their 2 pitches. You can always start them as 3-3.5 star MR's but chances are they won't ever be anything other than a serviceable #4 or #5 starter.

That's why I agree w/giving pitchers a 3rd. pitch (breaking ball or off-speed, depending on the case), even if it's low rated and with an avg., not so high ceiling. Definitely the way to go, IMO.

[jar2574]

In OOTP11 I saw some dominant 2-pitch relievers with 12-13 stamina dominate as starters. So much so that I thought it was an exploit to use them in that way, because the AI never did.

Don't know if that has been changed in OOTP12. But it will be cool if a 2 pitch player can start if their pitches and stamina are good enough.

[Marberi]

Originally Posted by jar2574

In OOTP11 I saw some dominant 2-pitch relievers with 12-13 stamina dominate as starters. So much so that I thought it was an exploit to use them in that way, because the AI never did.

Well, I never got good results out of this sort of pitcher as a starter. Serviceable 4, 5 SPs, like I said before (meaning a .500 pitcher w/an ERA of around 4.50-5.00) yes, but never dominant.

Also, I was never able to increase the stamina of a reliever with a great repertoire, the way it's happened IRL with some guys like the Rangers' C.J. Wilson or Alexi Ogando. If I didn't increase their stamina manually, the game would never do it, regardless on how many starts I gave them.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

There's a theory that Pete Rose's mismanagement killed Mario Soto's career, which seems more likely to me than it being killed by the addition of a curveball and a slider to his pitching arsenal.

See Pete Rose Killed Mario Soto's Career | Bleacher Report

I hope you are not the author of the article, Wolf, 'cause I'm about to call the guy a flat out idiot....
He's a flat out idiot.
There.

39 batters faced in a game 1) is no hard indication on how many pitches were thrown and 2) was not an unusual number for the time as the blogger suggests (a dead-ball era number).

Valenzuela faced at least 39 batter three times in 1984 and several others surpassed that total. Soto himself faced at least 39 batters at least once in both 1982 and 1983, before Rose was ever around.

96 batters faced is a dead-ball era number (Leon Cadore, Brooklyn, May 1, 1920; Joe Oeschger for Boston faced 91 in the same game.)