Question on Converting a MR or CL to a SP

[nedyken]

This may be a stupid question. Baseball isn't really my sport so there might be a really obvious answer to this that I'm not aware of.

Can converting a reliever/closer to a starting pitcher ever actually work? I know you can just change the player's position, but is that generally a bad idea?

Example:

I have a 24 year old closer on my team with the following ratings according to my legendary scout:

Stuff: 100
Movement: 80
Control: 91
Stamina: 76
Pitching Velocity: 99-101MPH

.... Like all relievers/closers he only has two pitches
Fast ball: 99
Slider: 98

... His OSA Ratings are about the same. Clearly he's an excellent closer... (5 star player)... but if he has stamina what's preventing him from being a starter? Is there something else I'm missing?

I notice that if I change his position to starter he suddenly goes from being a 5 star overall to a .5 (while keeping his 5 star potential).

Dumb question #1 -
Is it simply that starters typically have more than two pitches? If that's the case, shouldn't converting him to starter force him to develop additional pitches?

Dumb question #2 -
Does this ever happen in real life? I was thinking of Derek Lowe going from closer to starter, but then I realized he began his career as a starter.

Dumb question #3 -
I changed his position to SP and manually forced him into my starting lineup... so far he's gone 6-3 with a 2.56 ERA ... still showing only .5 overall rating as a starter. What is it basing this "overall rating" on at this point when he clearly seems to be producing far better than a .5 player should?

[nedyken]

While I'm at it...

I'm currently in the year 2048 in my game and the best pitcher I've seen so far is a guy on my team currently named Antonio Degracia. He's 33... His last 7 years:

23-7 Record 1.82 ERA and 294 K
23-6 Record 2.39 ERA and 295 K
18-5 Record 2.23 ERA and 256 K
27-4 Record 2.09 ERA and 285 K
26-4 Record 2.34 ERA and 278 K
24-2 Record 1.52 ERA and 268 K
28-5 Record 1.99 ERA and 304 K

10 time allstar... 7 time pitcher of the year.

His ratings:

Stuff: 100
Movement: 82
Control: 92
Stamina: 63
Pitching Velocity: 80-83 MPH

Pitches:
Splitter: 60
Knuckleball: 100


.... So basically he's a guy who throws an 83 MPH knuckle ball and has destroyed the league for a decade...

I'm trying to understand the difference between this 2 pitch phenom starter and the 2 pitch closer. The closer actually has a higher stamina rating than the phenom starter...

[nedyken]

Update:

Would you see this as somewhat of a glitch?

As I said, I took that 24 year old closer, changed his position to starter and plugged him into the starting rotation. He finished the season 20-8 with a 3.54 ERA. Made the all-star team. Not bad. It still shows him as a .5 star player with 5 star potential (as opposed to 5/5 when his position is set as closer). For the heck of it I offered him a 7 year contract making 800k a year... he immediately accepted it. Bug? Should a superstar closer and/or a 24 year old all-star starter immediately accept a 7 year contract making 800k a year?

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by nedyken

Dumb question #1 -
Is it simply that starters typically have more than two pitches? If that's the case, shouldn't converting him to starter force him to develop additional pitches?

Dumb question #2 -
Does this ever happen in real life? I was thinking of Derek Lowe going from closer to starter, but then I realized he began his career as a starter.

Dumb question #3 -
I changed his position to SP and manually forced him into my starting lineup... so far he's gone 6-3 with a 2.56 ERA ... still showing only .5 overall rating as a starter. What is it basing this "overall rating" on at this point when he clearly seems to be producing far better than a .5 player should?

1. in my various leagues i have some MR and even a CL or 2 with more then 2 pitches but not often.
2. theres only 1 HOF closer who never started a game and thats Bruce Sutter. but I think theres only 1-2 that started as a closer then became a SP.
3. I may have missed something what was his rating as a MR or CL?

glad u changed his pos to SP I noticed i have had more success with 2 pitch MR's after i change their position to SP forgot who told me to do that orig.

[nedyken]

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

1. in my various leagues i have some MR and even a CL or 2 with more then 2 pitches but not often.
2. theres only 1 HOF closer who never started a game and thats Bruce Sutter. but I think theres only 1-2 that started as a closer then became a SP.
3. I may have missed something what was his rating as a MR or CL?

glad u changed his pos to SP I noticed i have had more success with 2 pitch MR's after i change their position to SP forgot who told me to do that orig.

What i mean to say is that as a MR or a CL he is a 5 star player with 5 star potential. He's a dominant closer. The best in the league. When I had him as a closer he ended up having 60 saves in a single season with a 1.12 ERA.

When I went into his profile and manually changed his position from CL to SP, his overall rating falls from 5 stars to .5 stars (less than 1 star). However, his ratings (100 stuff, 80 movement, 91 control) remain unchanged...

Basically my scouting director goes from saying "This guy is the best closer in baseball" to saying "this guy can't play in the majors" once I change his position from closer to starter.

Despite this, I plugged him into the starting lineup... he won 20 games (3.54 ERA) and made the all-star team. His overall star rating remained at .5 stars. He then accepted a 7 year deal making 800k a year. That seems like a glitch to me. 7 years at 800k a year for a 25 year old studly pitcher is drastically underpaid. The game is simply confused by me changing his position from CL to SP and is assuming he's a bad pitcher when he clearly isn't.

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by nedyken

What i mean to say is that as a MR or a CL he is a 5 star player with 5 star potential. He's a dominant closer.

When I went into his profile and manually changed his position from CL to SP, his overall rating falls from 5 stars to .5 stars (less than 1 star). However, his ratings (100 stuff, 80 movement, 91 control) remain unchanged...

Basically my scouting director goes from saying "This guy is the best closer in baseball" to saying "this guy can't play in the majors" once I change his position from closer to starter.

I plugged him into the starting lineup... he won 20 games and made the all-star team. His overall star rating remained at .5 stars. He then accepted a 7 year deal making 800k a year. That seems like a glitch to me.

Dont know what to tell ya on that 1. Last time i used a good CL as a SP I didnt switch his position and he got injured that yr and I then later moved him back to CL.

In my other league where I did change the MR to SP he is a 5 star MR a 2.5 star SP(just checked) He seems to have been a 4 star SP last season when I used him as SP or atleast he is rated 4 by my current scout for last season.

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by nedyken

... His OSA Ratings are about the same. Clearly he's an excellent closer... (5 star player)... but if he has stamina what's preventing him from being a starter? Is there something else I'm missing?

I notice that if I change his position to starter he suddenly goes from being a 5 star overall to a .5 (while keeping his 5 star potential).

Dumb question #1 -
Is it simply that starters typically have more than two pitches? If that's the case, shouldn't converting him to starter force him to develop additional pitches?

Dumb question #2 -
Does this ever happen in real life? I was thinking of Derek Lowe going from closer to starter, but then I realized he began his career as a starter.

Dumb question #3 -
I changed his position to SP and manually forced him into my starting lineup... so far he's gone 6-3 with a 2.56 ERA ... still showing only .5 overall rating as a starter. What is it basing this "overall rating" on at this point when he clearly seems to be producing far better than a .5 player should?

From what I understand it is preferred that a starter have 3 or more pitches. This came about in the pitching recoding in version 10?, I think. I have had mixed success moving a highly talented, high stamina 2 pitch player to starter. Sometimes it works great and sometimes they get shelled. The thinking is that with 2 pitches the hitters will figure them out much easier ads they go through the lineup.

It sounds like you have scouting on and your scout does not like the idea or does not have a report on him as a starter. I have never used scouts so I could be way off on this.

#1 Yes about more than 2 pitches, no it does not mean he will develop a third.
#2 I don't know.
#3 I would leave him in the rotation, starters are obviously the most valuable pitchers. If he was mine I would probably check him one a month to see if he is maintaining or regressing. Can you do a manual rescout as a starter?

This part is pure opinion:
I would probably give him a 90-120 day leash so that I would not overreact if he has a bad month or 6 weeks.

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by nedyken

Update:

Would you see this as somewhat of a glitch?

As I said, I took that 24 year old closer, changed his position to starter and plugged him into the starting rotation. He finished the season 20-8 with a 3.54 ERA. Made the all-star team. Not bad. It still shows him as a .5 star player with 5 star potential (as opposed to 5/5 when his position is set as closer). For the heck of it I offered him a 7 year contract making 800k a year... he immediately accepted it. Bug? Should a superstar closer and/or a 24 year old all-star starter immediately accept a 7 year contract making 800k a year?

It depends on your financials and how much service time he has in.

[Pan]

Not sure how the system really figures this stuff but I too have been turning my MR's into SP's recently. I have a season going now that has been filled with injuries to my best SP's and terrible pitching by the rest. I tried bringing up some potential talent from the minors but they're floundering in the majors as well.

In frustration, I took my two best MR's (each had a stamina of 15 or 16 out of 20) and put them in the starting rotation. In the 3 months since I made that change, they have turned my club around. I don't have exact numbers but they're my star SP's and the only ones with significant win/loss records.

So I now have MR's starting and SP's relieving them. It's a backwards world I play in

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by nedyken

Dumb question #1 -
Is it simply that starters typically have more than two pitches? If that's the case, shouldn't converting him to starter force him to develop additional pitches?

Dumb question #2 -
Does this ever happen in real life? I was thinking of Derek Lowe going from closer to starter, but then I realized he began his career as a starter.

Dumb question #3 -
I changed his position to SP and manually forced him into my starting lineup... so far he's gone 6-3 with a 2.56 ERA ... still showing only .5 overall rating as a starter. What is it basing this "overall rating" on at this point when he clearly seems to be producing far better than a .5 player should?

1. In earlier version only stamina mattered for a starting pitcher. In 11 and in 12, stamina and number of quality pitches matter for a starter. A starter will have 3 good pitches(at least green color) and an above average stamina. On a 20 scale I have seen 7 or 8 stamina guys do ok if they have 3 good pitches. Generally, I don't like to place those guys as SP because they can't pitch as many innings before getting tired.

Secondly, learning a third pitch is random and I don't think it matters what role you have a guy. Pitchers can lose a pitch too. I had to move a star SP to CL after an injury because his third pitch declined.

2. Going for starter to closer is more likely in real life. A number of good closers were starters in the majors or minors. Billy Wagner came up with Houston as starter but didn't have the stamina. Same with Octavio Dotel. Gagne was a starter that went to closer. Going back is rare. Usually a guy who is effective as a starter will not go to the pen.

3. Depends on if you use scouting or not. If you use scouting then you scout has the opinion that this guy is .5 star starter. Sometimes the scout is wrong sometimes he isn't.

If scouting is off or on there is a formula for stars that is unknown. However, you can adjust it by adjusting AI evaluation and using AI evaluation rather than ratings to rate players. By default a player's stars is all based on ratings. If you choose AI evaluation then the stars are based on ratings, this year's stats, last year's stats, and 2 years ago stats. You can change the weights for each category.

On default settings the stars represent the scout's opinion of the player's rating. That may or may not be accurate. Also it is not that two pitch pitchers can't start. A guy with high stamina and 2 blue pitches might make a decent starter. They just typically don't do as well as 3 pitch pitchers with equal ability.

[Bahgoon]

Just did a quick read and not sure if this point was addressed.

If a pitcher has a knuckleball as one of his two pitches he will get rated as a starter (assuming all else is good) rather than a reliever like all other two pitch pitchers.

[Supernovae]

Originally Posted by nedyken

Dumb question #3 -
I changed his position to SP and manually forced him into my starting lineup... so far he's gone 6-3 with a 2.56 ERA ... still showing only .5 overall rating as a starter. What is it basing this "overall rating" on at this point when he clearly seems to be producing far better than a .5 player should?

When changing a player from one position to another position his star rating is then based against other players at that new position. So, your converted MR to SP is now rated against every other SP in the game.

Since most SPs have 3+ pitches he is rated low (0.5), but has great peripherals (stuff, movement, stamina, defense, etc) to make him a 5 star potential. I bet if you edited him (using Commissioner mode) and gave him a 3rd pitch his current rating would be higher.


Like all of the other recommendations, I would monitor him and watch his development and stats every few months or so. If you see any regression you might want to take action to move him back to the bullpen or if he develops then you might move him up in the rotation.

-Supernovae

[phillupi]

Anybody else have any experience with this?


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[phillupi]

I'll try again. Looking for some comments on pitching position changes.


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