Number of draft rounds

PSUColonel · 06-01-2011, 08:24 AM

I have a solo league with the full MLB setup..only I am using real roster rules for the minors which means rookie ball has a 35 man limit & SA has a 30 man limit. How many rounds should there be in the draft now that the AI must fill a few more spots with younger players? How many free agents should there be to make a healthy pool?

VarlosZ · 06-01-2011, 09:31 AM

I'd like to piggy-back with a separate draft-pool related question, if that's alright:

Does a larger draft pool = a stronger draft pool? That is, if I have a 30-round draft but I generate 60 rounds worth of draftees instead of 35, will there be more exceptional prospects -- outliers -- at the top of the draft, due simply to there being more opportunities for the game to generate such players? Or would OOTP compensate for the larger pool by reducing the average quality of the draftees it generates?

Carplos · 06-01-2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

I have a solo league with the full MLB setup..only I am using real roster rules for the minors which means rookie ball has a 35 man limit & SA has a 30 man limit. How many rounds should there be in the draft now that the AI must fill a few more spots with younger players? How many free agents should there be to make a healthy pool?

I use a 35-round draft, with 40 rounds worth generated for the full MLB setup with real roster limits (aside from the R leagues which I leave unlimited due to AI issues.) Never had any problems this way. Teams will sign unsigned rookies if they run low in the lower leagues due to injuries, etc. It may not seem like much, but with 30 rounds and changing Short A rosters to 30/35 it does make a difference so I'd go with at least 35.

On the other hand you may want to have lower rounds with more players generated so teams are forced to sign players to reach roster limits in rookie. I know the game says that 35 should be the lowest limit for the lowest league, but the AI is gonna go nuts and you'll see early round picks released right after they're drafted 'cause they're not as good as other players drafted previous years in current ratings. But then they'll be signed by another team, or even re-signed by the same team. Then dumped, etc. With lowest league limits you tend to see the crazy AI habits as they conform to the limit.

Quote:

Does a larger draft pool = a stronger draft pool? That is, if I have a 30-round draft but I generate 60 rounds worth of draftees instead of 35, will there be more exceptional prospects -- outliers -- at the top of the draft, due simply to there being more opportunities for the game to generate such players? Or would OOTP compensate for the larger pool by reducing the average quality of the draftees it generates?

In my experience draft pools are balanced no matter how many rounds you have. I've done 3 round drafts for smaller, indy-style leagues and they're just as balanced as an MLB-style larger draft.

PSUColonel · 06-01-2011, 01:09 PM

But which number determines that balance? The actual number of rounds?, or the number of players generated?

Carplos · 06-01-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

But which number determines that balance? The actual number of rounds?, or the number of players generated?

I've rarely changed the # of generated players in my leagues, so I'm not sure.

My instinct would be based on the players generated since they're all created at the same time.

A simple test would be to create a league and just the # of players generated to like half the rounds (if the game will let you-never tried) and check.

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 12:52 AM

It does seem to me that if you want to do realistic minor league roster limits, the AI goes after every position player Free Agent, and leaves catchers, and pitchers as th only thing left. Carplos, have you seen this in your free agent pool?

Carplos · 06-02-2011, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

It does seem to me that if you want to do realistic minor league roster limits, the AI goes after every position player Free Agent, and leaves catchers, and pitchers as th only thing left. Carplos, have you seen this in your free agent pool?

I will load up my MLB league later and check, not sure without looking.

What, IMO, would be best is allowing us to have a "reserve" roster even with minors, 'cause even though the complex leagues have roster limits, there's way more players at the complex for various reasons not assigned to a roster.

megamanmatt · 06-02-2011, 01:18 AM

Right now I use a 3 level minors system with 10 round drafts but players generated for 17. My AAA and AA leagues have roster limits of 25 and A has one of 35. Right now I have 300 batters vs 250 pitchers in FA going into the 5th day or so of the season. Positionally they are fairly even amongst all the positions although catchers do seem to have a slight edge in numbers.

What do you have your aging and development modifiers set at? That can have an effect on the level of talent in the league also. For instance a have a few older 4 star MRs still hanging on in FA without jobs but my aging modifiers are set at .800 . I think I'm going to raise the pitcher aging modifier a little bit though.

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

I use a 35-round draft, with 40 rounds worth generated for the full MLB setup with real roster limits (aside from the R leagues which I leave unlimited due to AI issues.) Never had any problems this way. Teams will sign unsigned rookies if they run low in the lower leagues due to injuries, etc. It may not seem like much, but with 30 rounds and changing Short A rosters to 30/35 it does make a difference so I'd go with at least 35.

On the other hand you may want to have lower rounds with more players generated so teams are forced to sign players to reach roster limits in rookie. I know the game says that 35 should be the lowest limit for the lowest league, but the AI is gonna go nuts and you'll see early round picks released right after they're drafted 'cause they're not as good as other players drafted previous years in current ratings. But then they'll be signed by another team, or even re-signed by the same team. Then dumped, etc. With lowest league limits you tend to see the crazy AI habits as they conform to the limit.

I found that the draft quality on this setting was so bad that you would have no selection of players.

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 01:54 AM

Well my observation is this...the more rounds you generate players for, the actual worse the talent distribution is. This is why it is important to keep it at 35. The problem here is, if you want to play with realistic minor league roster limits...you must raise this number. If you do not, you will never have a realistic free agent pool. Therefore, I think every level of minors with the exception of Rookie ball should be kept at a 25 man roster limit...with rookie ball of course being 35. I didn't try it with 36 rounds, but I did with 37 and saw enough of a drop off in talent distribution for the draft that it scared me off. It was a lot better than 40, but not as good as 35. Maybe 36 is the answer, but I don't have time tonight.

megamanmatt · 06-02-2011, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Well my observation is this...the more rounds you generate players for, the actual worse the talent distribution is. This is why it is important to keep it at 35. The problem here is, if you want to play with realistic minor league roster limits...you must raise this number. If you do not, you will never have a realistic free agent pool. Therefore, I think every level of minors with the exception of Rookie ball should be kept at a 25 man roster limit...with rookie ball of course being 35. I didn't try it with 36 rounds, but I did with 37 and saw enough of a drop off in talent distribution for the draft that it scared me off. It was a lot better than 40, but not as good as 35. Maybe 36 is the answer, but I don't have time tonight.

Have you removed the random talent fluctuation? That also has a profound impact on the overall final distribution of talent in a draft class, and later the FA pool.

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 02:02 AM

Actually...you can keep every league realistic with the exception of short season A....this is the one that causes the problem. 25 man rosters to 30...for this setup is just too much of an increase. But for balance and injury purposes...25 man roster across the board (except rookie at 35) just seems the best way to go.

Carplos · 06-02-2011, 02:17 AM

In my experience, even though if you look at the overall future potentials in the 40-round generated players it doesn't seem a good distribution, I've never had talent issues throughout the league. Some of the guys rated in the 20s overall actually had what seems like better specific potentials and pan out just fine.

I've always assumed the OFP of draft classes was generated the same as any other player in the league--comparisons to other players at the position (or all if you have it set that way,) but when it almost seems like they aren't. Especially if you then turn off the draft and let the game generate rookies to be signed as FAs.

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

In my experience, even though if you look at the overall future potentials in the 40-round generated players it doesn't seem a good distribution, I've never had talent issues throughout the league. Some of the guys rated in the 20s overall actually had what seems like better specific potentials and pan out just fine.

I've always assumed the OFP of draft classes was generated the same as any other player in the league--comparisons to other players at the position (or all if you have it set that way,) but when it almost seems like they aren't. Especially if you then turn off the draft and let the game generate rookies to be signed as FAs.

Yes, the talent distribution might ultimately be fine, but without decent potentials to go on (especially using low rating scales) drafting is a blind crapshoot, and really not even much fun. It's a blind crapshoot anyway, but it's unrealistic to think a scouting director would only have a handful of players to recommend drafting. And when I say handful, I mean 2-3 players.

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 11:10 AM

anybody else have thoughts on this? Maybe 36 or 37 rounds instead of 35 with real roster limits? I'd love to see what others think about this.

spleen1015 · 06-02-2011, 11:50 AM

I believe you're going to see equal talent ratios no matter how many rounds you have.

If you have 5% 5-star players with 35 rounds, you're going to have 5% with 70 rounds. I haven't done any sort of testing to verify this this. It just seems to make the most sense to me. I see there being a bell curve.

5 Star - 5%
4 Star - 25%
3 Star - 40%
2 Star - 25%
1 Star - 5%

I know that the star ratings are based on all of the players at a position, but I am just using it to illustrate what think.

PSUColonel you said that the more round you have, the worse the talent distribution is. What exactly do you mean? With more rounds are you seeing the ratio of good to bad players getting worse?

PSUColonel · 06-02-2011, 02:09 PM

What I mean is that the OSA scouted ratings of the draft pool would seem to indicate there is only about 5 worthwhile players. Also I am worried that if I generate 40 rounds of players, that there would be tooany good players for a standard MLB setup

OpeningDay85 · 06-12-2011, 08:24 PM

Now when you talk about all levels having a certain number of players and the only one that should be at 35 is rookie ball. Is that for all the rookie teams? I see that some teams have 2 rookie ball teams and some have 4.

Qwerty75 · 06-12-2011, 09:49 PM

I run a league with a replica MLB setup. I create 31 rounds for 30 drafted rounds, which does fine for me with filling the minors and a FA class that is predictably short on real talent, but nice for filling in positional backups and other assorted organizational players. I tend to have small teams in Short Season A ball, though, so if you want to fill up to your 35-man roster limit there, more created rounds might be better. If you want a safe setup, Carplos' 40 created for 35 drafted sounds fine. Tweaking by one or two rounds won't make a significant difference.

Couple more observations:

1) In previous versions (v8 and before), the distribution of talent in a draft class fluctutated a hard-coded distribution curve. What you get for one class won't be exactly the same as next year's class, though. If you increase the number of created rounds, you will generally get more players of a certain talent level (i.e., the amount of 4-5* players will go up). Perhaps the curve can be changed in a .txt file; I haven't looked into this. It's also not a "bell curve," with there having the greatest share of mid-range talent, but something more like a pyramid, with most players being poor. That's true to real life, IMO. I'm assuming the curve is the same for all draft pool sizes in 11, as well, as it doesn't make sense for it to change.

2) To get a more accurate idea of the strength of the draft classes the game creates, run a test league with scouting disabled. Examine the draft classes for multiple years, as there will be year-to-year variation. OSA's ratings are off by a lot, especially for amateurs, and even the best scouts for human players will have a lot of error.

Qwerty75 · 06-12-2011, 09:55 PM

Another thing to remember with drafting is that most of the players with crappy ratings to begin with will increase their potentials over time. The development engine is very dynamic and generally unpredictable. The "crapshoot" element of the draft is realistic, IMO. You can try to improve the quality of draft pools by creating more rounds, changing the standard talents of created amateurs, or by adding feeder leagues. I've never messed around with feeders, but they apparently make a big difference in talent coming in.

06-01-2011, 08:24 AM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	Number of draft rounds I have a solo league with the full MLB setup..only I am using real roster rules for the minors which means rookie ball has a 35 man limit & SA has a 30 man limit. How many rounds should there be in the draft now that the AI must fill a few more spots with younger players? How many free agents should there be to make a healthy pool?

06-02-2011, 01:18 AM	#8
megamanmatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lakeville, Minnesota Posts: 2,416	Right now I use a 3 level minors system with 10 round drafts but players generated for 17. My AAA and AA leagues have roster limits of 25 and A has one of 35. Right now I have 300 batters vs 250 pitchers in FA going into the 5th day or so of the season. Positionally they are fairly even amongst all the positions although catchers do seem to have a slight edge in numbers. What do you have your aging and development modifiers set at? That can have an effect on the level of talent in the league also. For instance a have a few older 4 star MRs still hanging on in FA without jobs but my aging modifiers are set at .800 . I think I'm going to raise the pitcher aging modifier a little bit though. __________________ "The Minneapolis Lakers moved to Los Angeles, where there are no lakes; The Oilers moved to Tennessee where there is no oil; the Jazz moved to Salt Lake City where they don't allow music; The Oakland Raiders moved to Los Angeles and then back to Oakland, no one in Los Angeles seemed to notice." Note to self: Princess Kenny was really off-putting.

06-02-2011, 02:02 AM	#12
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	Actually...you can keep every league realistic with the exception of short season A....this is the one that causes the problem. 25 man rosters to 30...for this setup is just too much of an increase. But for balance and injury purposes...25 man roster across the board (except rookie at 35) just seems the best way to go. Last edited by PSUColonel; 06-02-2011 at 02:04 AM.

06-12-2011, 09:49 PM	#19
Qwerty75 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 817	I run a league with a replica MLB setup. I create 31 rounds for 30 drafted rounds, which does fine for me with filling the minors and a FA class that is predictably short on real talent, but nice for filling in positional backups and other assorted organizational players. I tend to have small teams in Short Season A ball, though, so if you want to fill up to your 35-man roster limit there, more created rounds might be better. If you want a safe setup, Carplos' 40 created for 35 drafted sounds fine. Tweaking by one or two rounds won't make a significant difference. Couple more observations: 1) In previous versions (v8 and before), the distribution of talent in a draft class fluctutated a hard-coded distribution curve. What you get for one class won't be exactly the same as next year's class, though. If you increase the number of created rounds, you will generally get more players of a certain talent level (i.e., the amount of 4-5* players will go up). Perhaps the curve can be changed in a .txt file; I haven't looked into this. It's also not a "bell curve," with there having the greatest share of mid-range talent, but something more like a pyramid, with most players being poor. That's true to real life, IMO. I'm assuming the curve is the same for all draft pool sizes in 11, as well, as it doesn't make sense for it to change. 2) To get a more accurate idea of the strength of the draft classes the game creates, run a test league with scouting disabled. Examine the draft classes for multiple years, as there will be year-to-year variation. OSA's ratings are off by a lot, especially for amateurs, and even the best scouts for human players will have a lot of error. __________________

06-12-2011, 09:55 PM	#20
Qwerty75 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 817	Another thing to remember with drafting is that most of the players with crappy ratings to begin with will increase their potentials over time. The development engine is very dynamic and generally unpredictable. The "crapshoot" element of the draft is realistic, IMO. You can try to improve the quality of draft pools by creating more rounds, changing the standard talents of created amateurs, or by adding feeder leagues. I've never messed around with feeders, but they apparently make a big difference in talent coming in. __________________

06-01-2011, 09:31 AM	#2
VarlosZ Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 35	I'd like to piggy-back with a separate draft-pool related question, if that's alright: Does a larger draft pool = a stronger draft pool? That is, if I have a 30-round draft but I generate 60 rounds worth of draftees instead of 35, will there be more exceptional prospects -- outliers -- at the top of the draft, due simply to there being more opportunities for the game to generate such players? Or would OOTP compensate for the larger pool by reducing the average quality of the draftees it generates?

06-01-2011, 01:09 PM	#4
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	But which number determines that balance? The actual number of rounds?, or the number of players generated?

06-02-2011, 12:52 AM	#6
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	It does seem to me that if you want to do realistic minor league roster limits, the AI goes after every position player Free Agent, and leaves catchers, and pitchers as th only thing left. Carplos, have you seen this in your free agent pool?

06-02-2011, 01:54 AM	#10
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	Well my observation is this...the more rounds you generate players for, the actual worse the talent distribution is. This is why it is important to keep it at 35. The problem here is, if you want to play with realistic minor league roster limits...you must raise this number. If you do not, you will never have a realistic free agent pool. Therefore, I think every level of minors with the exception of Rookie ball should be kept at a 25 man roster limit...with rookie ball of course being 35. I didn't try it with 36 rounds, but I did with 37 and saw enough of a drop off in talent distribution for the draft that it scared me off. It was a lot better than 40, but not as good as 35. Maybe 36 is the answer, but I don't have time tonight.

06-02-2011, 02:17 AM	#13
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,855 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	In my experience, even though if you look at the overall future potentials in the 40-round generated players it doesn't seem a good distribution, I've never had talent issues throughout the league. Some of the guys rated in the 20s overall actually had what seems like better specific potentials and pan out just fine. I've always assumed the OFP of draft classes was generated the same as any other player in the league--comparisons to other players at the position (or all if you have it set that way,) but when it almost seems like they aren't. Especially if you then turn off the draft and let the game generate rookies to be signed as FAs.

06-02-2011, 11:10 AM	#15
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	anybody else have thoughts on this? Maybe 36 or 37 rounds instead of 35 with real roster limits? I'd love to see what others think about this.

06-02-2011, 11:50 AM	#16
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,005	I believe you're going to see equal talent ratios no matter how many rounds you have. If you have 5% 5-star players with 35 rounds, you're going to have 5% with 70 rounds. I haven't done any sort of testing to verify this this. It just seems to make the most sense to me. I see there being a bell curve. 5 Star - 5% 4 Star - 25% 3 Star - 40% 2 Star - 25% 1 Star - 5% I know that the star ratings are based on all of the players at a position, but I am just using it to illustrate what think. PSUColonel you said that the more round you have, the worse the talent distribution is. What exactly do you mean? With more rounds are you seeing the ratio of good to bad players getting worse?

06-02-2011, 02:09 PM	#17
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,107	What I mean is that the OSA scouted ratings of the draft pool would seem to indicate there is only about 5 worthwhile players. Also I am worried that if I generate 40 rounds of players, that there would be tooany good players for a standard MLB setup

06-12-2011, 08:24 PM	#18
OpeningDay85 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 73	Now when you talk about all levels having a certain number of players and the only one that should be at 35 is rookie ball. Is that for all the rookie teams? I see that some teams have 2 rookie ball teams and some have 4.