A poll about women's / mixed leagues

[SMFXR01]

Originally Posted by the wolf

i still haven't had an answer to this question: Why isn't reality-based baseball enough?

42

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Why does it have to be enough? It's personal preference.

Its definitely personal preference, but I don't want valuable coding time put towards this idea, just like I wouldn't want it put towards hobbits, star wars, or any of that type of stuff. Is the wolf 'over the top'? Yes, he is, but his point is the same as the one I just stated in a much better way.


You can create these already in the game with a little work, so why do we need the 'option'?

[ctorg]

For me, "real" baseball is not enough. If this game only had that as an option, I seriously never would have come to it. I was specifically looking for a game that would let me create my own version of baseball history with my own players and such. Just playing real baseball as it is is, for me, boring and unimaginative. Most of the fun of OOTP is coming up with novel ideas for leagues.

What other people think of this board is irrelevant to whether adding women as an option is a good idea. People are not going to buy the game at a lower rate because there is an option to allow women. They may roll their eyes or never use it or whatever, but it's a pretty lame reason to not buy the game considering its other features.

I also don't go for the argument of not spending precious coding time on some element of the game or another anymore. Every year there are a number of features added to the game that I'll never use, and that a lot of other people will probably never use. OOTP has developed into a game with so many options that there are now niches within the community whose playing styles differ very widely and only cross paths in a few places, from historical simmers to modern only to fictional only and so on. More and more, additions to the game will cater to niches rather than huge swaths of the fan base. That's because the game is already very good at its core now and, while there can always be improvement of course, adding bells and whistles does attract new people.

Is it realistic to have the option of women playing baseball? Considering that there was actually once a women's baseball league, I think it is. Imagine playing out a theoretical timeline in which the AAGPBL was successful and some of its best players made it into MLB. Did this happen? No. Could it have happened? We can't possibly know. Does it matter if it could have happened or not? No. It only matters whether some people might be interested in exploring the idea in the context of a game, and I bet there are quite a few who would be.

[GMLoophole]

Maybe something's getting lost here, but I think the underlying idea was "without diverting programming resources".

[David Watts]

The more I think about it, I think I would blame all of this on Eugene Church. I mean, does this Islandian place really even exist? Ruthlandia and Tycobbia, that's just nonsense. I mean, whats so bad about simply putting a team in Toledo, Durham or Montgomery that makes the guy think he has to create an entire country of his own? Then he has the gall to put up pictures of stadiums and tell you about the history of these places. I bet he's just make all that stuff up as he goes. Yup, I blame Eugene.

[Athletics17]

Ease up on the horse guys, I think its dead.

[The Wolf]

This whole issue reduces to reality vs. science fiction, respect for baseball vs. a desire for silliness, and, to quote my oldest brother, "Playing a baseball game with the Green Monster in it as opposed to one with a bunch of expletive deleted little green monsters in it."

Courtesy of this thread I now understand the SF/fantasy crowd here far better than I would ever have liked to. As a result, as much as I hate the idea of making the game even a tiny little bit sillier, if you can come up with a mod for this silliness that doesn't take up any dev time and therefore doesn't take away from the actual baseball side of the game - which if you hadn't noticed needs work - then have at it, you silly men, and I'll just hate it 24/7 privately. My public opposition is done, given those terms. Wolf out.

[fintach]

I was going to ignore this poll, because I didn't feel strongly enough about it, but The Wolf drew me in and convinced me to support it.

I've loved baseball as far back as I can remember. You know what else I've loved all my conscious life? The Hobbit.

Yes, I read science fiction and fantasy along with other subjects. Hell, I write science fiction and fantasy along with other subjects. I've considered setting up an OOTP baseball league in the Babylon 5 universe. And no, I've never dressed up as a wookie or a klingon, but bless those who do it and enjoy themselves.

Out of the Park Baseball is an amazingly flexible game, useful for generating almost any kind of baseball game that could be played in this, our real world. No hobbits or other fictional races, but people should have to add those on their own. There's no reason for the developers to include races that don't exist.

But women? They do exist. I'm not surprised that they haven't been added to date, because Major League Baseball is the major source drawn on for the development of this game, and MLB has been, I believe, exclusively male to date.

But those women are still real people, and, in my opinion, the ideal version of this game includes all real people.

It's not my place to set Markus' priorities, and I wouldn't presume to do it. But I now think this should be in the queue.

[Rizon]

If we are going to program in women then you have to program in hermaphrodites.

Just sayin.

[The Wolf]

But if you propose taking even a minute of dev time away from the real game I promise to scream to high heaven

[Muzamba]

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

Wolf as for me the only reason I play OOTP is so I could do my Endor League in full, and also my ABF league. If OOTP did not have the option of "fantasy" league, I and probably half this board would go out but a PS3/XBox and play The Show, or I would have stuck to High Heat 2003. Now while i dont play modern, since technically the online league I am in would be considered fantasy in 2013. I do play a solo historical league amd have played 5 single season replays.
What I dont get Wolf, is while I see your point on the subject, u r so adamantly against us who want to play "fantasy" leagues of any sort...and I did say I wasnt for Markus adding women to the game unless the coding process is something easy to do.

As to not having women added to BM I had forgot that was an option but I believe the default was yes not 0.(dont know which yr)

Whats wrong with saying u r not for the option and leaving it at that instead of blasting people in this thread?
We are about 5 pages past where this thread should have ended.

Thank you! Well said.

Apparently, Wolf would prefer that once every feature and function that HE personally deems worthy of including has been implement, Markus should discontinue the series so that nothing else could ever be added to the game again. In other words, even if it doesn't take programming time away from Wolf-endorsed features... and even if they're optional and the user would have to go out of their way to activate them or even notice that they exist... none of these unrealistic elements should EVER be added under any circumstances, simply because they're "silly" and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiotic RPG geek living in fantasy land.

This is exactly why I see this conflict as more of a broad sociological issue than being just about what should and shouldn't be included in OOTP. There are people out there who are so convinced that their beliefs are superior to others' that they are determined to either convert dissenters or destroy them and salt the earth behind them.

Whether we're talking about OOTP or society at large, it's important to defend those who have alternative beliefs and ideas. As long as they aren't infringing on the rights of others (or in the OOTP world, demanding Markus focus his attention on their pet feature at the expense of features the majority would like to see addressed) then what difference should it make?

[endgame]

Well. How interesting and yet unavailing. 8 pages? Seriously? And yet, here I am, unable to resist peering between the shoulders of onlookers gathered around a giants' slugfest.

From a gaming and development standpoint, the audience numbers don't exist to qualify for anything more than, perhaps, investment in FaceGen to further the possibilities of a modder's desires.

From the logician's corner, though I hardly qualify, debate over the plausibility of a women's league if it had proper funding and if it were well run and if ad infinitum becomes a rather pointless discussion/debate. It doesn't. It's a mod; left to the mythmakers.

Finally, the political comment. Sexist? ACLU? How odd to provoke such response, IMHO. Those of us who opposed the return of the "Married with Children" function were never labeled anti-marriage, opponents of pro-life, or homosexuals.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

But if you propose taking even a minute of dev time away from the real game I promise to scream to high heaven

But wait, does high heaven actually exist?

[CONN CHRIS]

My wife considers OOTP and TBCB to be stuff of smirk-inducing eye-rolling fantasy. I think that she would find it endlessly amusing to learn that some geeks within my little geek community align themselves with and against others based on a real v. fantasy demarcation line.

[kehowey]

Kandy's rookie season......

[GMLoophole]

Originally Posted by Rizon

If we are going to program in women then you have to program in hermaphrodites.

Just sayin.

I find this highly amusing, posted next to your icon

But I'm glad to see another refugee from High Heat Central (or whatever Wes' old board used to be called).

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by GMLoophole

Maybe something's getting lost here, but I think the underlying idea was "without diverting programming resources".

Exactly.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

This whole issue reduces to reality vs. science fiction, respect for baseball vs. a desire for silliness.

So the idea of having women playing is disrespectful to baseball? How exactly?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Make pbp text and name files selectable for each league and leave it at that. Mods can then create a women's name file and pbp text the same as one could create a Negro League or even a Martian League specific pbp text and name file if they desire.

I still don't see why this isn't the best course of action. Mods have already created women's files, according to what I've read here. These can then be shared without creating a "support responsibility" for Markus.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by GMLoophole

Maybe something's getting lost here, but I think the underlying idea was "without diverting programming resources".

This is exactly why it should be left to the mods. Once someone pays for a game that includes women's leagues the maker of the game is obligated to support it.

Make it easy by all means to pick and choose pbp text and name files. It then becomes something many can use instead of limiting it to women's leagues.

[The Wolf]

Apparently some people can't read. What I and my roughly half of the debate have been arguing for is a game that has the features of real baseball as it exists. It isn't about our personal preferences - I'd personally love to see the DH rule done away with for good and never even available as an option if it wasn't part of The Show - but simply a matter of what is real versus what is not.

This whole issue boils down to reality versus science fiction, baseball game versus RPG game, respect for the game as it is versus silliness. It is not personal or about any one person, despite the misguided efforts of some people here who persist in trying to make every argument personal and about their opponent(s) instead of about the issues involved.

This one is issue-based and quite simple: reality or science fiction. Pick one.