A poll about women's / mixed leagues

[Dregen]

This would do no harm, I'm not sure why there would be any resistance against it.

If someone wants to make women's leagues? Have at it.

[shawa666]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

The Arizona Winter League is not affiliated with the MLB in any way whatsoever, and all you are talking about is publicity stunts. Ever see a woman in A ball? No, you haven't, and neither has or will anyone else.

So? It's still baseball played according to MLB's regulations.


So now that your previous argument which stated that women have never played regulation baseball has been proved false (and that's a fact) you change your stance? Or are you now stating that any baseball played outside of the MLB and it's affiliated leagues is not really baseball? Or even more, that we're all fools for believing that there is a league out there in Japan? :sarcasm:

Face it, wolfie, you've lost this one.

[Chicagofan76]

I am surprised no one mentioned Ila Borders. She played 4 seasons in the Nothern League.

Ila Borders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ila Borders - BR Bullpen

edit: i forgot about the 1st women to play organized ball...Toni Stone of the Negro Leagues..
Toni Stone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dregen]

Any real stance against this has to be based around sexism, sorry to say it. But, what's the big deal with giving the player the _OPTION_ to have female or mixed leagues?

I'd love to see an argument that isn't "It hasn't happened" or "It will never happen." There's no strong argument or reason why this shouldn't be considered.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dregen

Any real stance against this has to be based around sexism, sorry to say it.

Wow.

[Athletics17]

I am not going to harp on anyone playing in the Arizona Fall League. 99 out of 100 people in this forum couldn't hang in that league including me. That girl would strike us all out. Don't ever try to say that isn't baseball.

Trying to define what is true baseball is plain ridiculous. I would rather watch a high school team play ball for the love of the game, then some overpaid bum who refuses to play because he has to bat 9th. Hopefully this thread gets locked, because this is becoming pointless.

[Dregen]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Wow.

What other logical reason would there not be to add in what would take very little programming to do? OOTP is great because it allows a gamer to play the game how they wish.

As some have pointed out women have played in real life, so I don't see any other basis for an argument.

[Dregen]

Originally Posted by Athletics17

I am not going to harp on anyone playing in the Arizona Fall League. 99 out of 100 people in this forum couldn't hang in that league including me. That girl would strike us all out. Don't ever try to say that isn't baseball.

Trying to define what is true baseball is plain ridiculous. I would rather watch a high school team play ball for the love of the game, then some overpaid bum who refuses to play because he has to bat 9th. Hopefully this thread gets locked, because this is becoming pointless.

I go out to watch my College team play and you never hear things like refusing to play or what not. They play because they love the game, it's nice to see things like that.

Great post and great point.

[jmm8356]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

... That's political correctness gone wild. ...

Apologies to Dave Barry...

... but "Political Correctness Gone Wild" would make a great name for a band!

[Cryomaniac]

One thing which the Wolf hasn't answered yet, is why a dedicated women's baseball league couldn't work, assuming it got funding and competent ownership.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

If you think I'm angry you are quite wrong. The actual emotion involved on my part is disgust.

Including women in the game is ridiculous. Women in baseball never happened. It isn't happening. It never will happen. You might as well include sea lion leagues or flying pig leagues. Someone from Ghana or Madagascar might make the Show, but no woman ever will.

Adding nonsense like this would make OOTP looks less serious and more like a quirky game for the SF fandom crowd when they're not wearing their wookie costumes.

Ok, insert 'disgust' for 'anger' in my earlier post then. I still don't get it. Really.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I'd put my vote down for the absent "no opinion/doesnt' matter" category. If folks want to do it, go nuts with editing the name/writeup files. If they're against it, do nothing different then you are now. Simple solutions that avoid pointless drama.

If there's enough of a market for it, it'll be added to the game regardless of what polls and what not suggest (as they reflect as much of the market as the Neilsen ratings do for TV). In the end, money talks, and bull**** will run the marathon.

I'm in this camp as well.


The argument over this is utterly stupid and I can't believe most of you wasted your time arguing the point. If I wanted a female league, I believe I could create it right now, so what's the big f'n deal?

I can tell you this--female facegens won't happen b/c the free version of facegen has no hair.

[Muzamba]

While I seriously doubt I would ever use female players in any of my leagues, I believe the more options OOTP has, the better. Yes, there are probably hundreds of things this game needs more than female players, IMO. And I would argue strongly in favor of these issues being addressed before spending a significant amount of time or effort on adding women to the game. But the fact that even a few people would like to see this option implemented makes me want to see it added eventually.

In all fairness, it really wouldn't be that hard to add them. We already have a female names file to use, which we'll hopefully be utilizing for storylines soon. So why not allow the option to have women created as players?

My problem is with those who arrogantly believe that anything they don't like or agree with should be publicly disparaged and shouted down. There are many elements of OOTP that I personally feel are unnecessary and are of no interest to me. But I don't believe that gives me the right to tell other people what they should or shouldn't want in the game.

We've had this debate before and I will gladly have it again. I have no problem with people having civilized discussions concerning issues they disagree on. But there's absolutely no reason people can't do so in a polite and respectful way. Despite what some people seem to believe, no one community member's opinion is any more valid than another's.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

The argument over this is utterly stupid and I can't believe most of you wasted your time arguing the point. If I wanted a female league, I believe I could create it right now, so what's the big f'n deal?

I actually agree to a point, since what goes in the game is up to Markus, and these polls are irrelevant in the scheme of things, but it's a discussion that s always interesting (If somewhat poisonous at times).

As a matter of interest, would you like promotion / relgation leagues to be able to be done without the pissing about that it currently entails?

Originally Posted by Muzamba

My problem is with those who arrogantly believe that anything they don't like or agree with should be publicly disparaged and shouted down. There are many elements of OOTP that I personally feel are unnecessary and are of no interest to me. But I don't believe that gives me the right to tell other people what they should or shouldn't want in the game.

Hear, hear.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

As a matter of interest, would you like promotion / relgation leagues to be able to be done without the pissing about that it currently entails?

What 'pissing about' are you speaking of? I have zero problems creating promotion/relegation leagues now.


If you're asking if I'd like the game to keep up with points and promote/relegate teams itself. Yes, it would be nice to save those 2 minutes each season I suppose, but I can manage.

As for the points, fhomess has graciously added a file to my statslab that creates the points table based on my league's point system, so I don't really need it from Markus.

Am I attempting something that was never really done in baseball? Yes, but I've either found workarounds or tactics to get what I want accomplished.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

What 'pissing about' are you speaking of? I have zero problems creating promotion/relegation leagues now.


If you're asking if I'd like the game to keep up with points and promote/relegate teams itself. Yes, it would be nice to save those 2 minutes each season I suppose, but I can manage.

As for the points, fhomess has graciously added a file to my statslab that creates the points table based on my league's point system, so I don't really need it from Markus.

Am I attempting something that was never really done in baseball? Yes, but I've either found workarounds or tactics to get what I want accomplished.

Fair enough. I'd say that doing women's leagues is about the same amount of work, but that doesn't mean that it would be nice to have it done automatically.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dregen

Any real stance against this has to be based around sexism, sorry to say it. But, what's the big deal with giving the player the _OPTION_ to have female or mixed leagues?

I'd love to see an argument that isn't "It hasn't happened" or "It will never happen." There's no strong argument or reason why this shouldn't be considered.

Originally Posted by Sweed

Wow.

Originally Posted by Dregen

What other logical reason would there not be to add in what would take very little programming to do? OOTP is great because it allows a gamer to play the game how they wish.

As some have pointed out women have played in real life, so I don't see any other basis for an argument.

Did you read the old linked thread? Is that where you came up with the sexism card, since it was mentioned there too?

From the 2008 linked thread...

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The point is, nothing about OOTP has to be realistic. Is a baseball league in Ghana likely any time soon?

There is no reason, except blatant sexism (not on the part of Markus before anyone thinks I mean that), why there shouldn't be the option women's leagues without needing workarounds.

Bold text in my quoted post added by me today..

Originally Posted by Sweed

Economics? Doesn't Markus have to balance what it takes to add a feature to how many will use it or how it will or will not impact sales?

How many would actually use this feature? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 5,000? I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that less than 1% of users would use this feature. Even if it was 1% would it be worth the effort? Any idea how much work it would take to do this right?

You mentioned text files but that's just one thing. And before you go there you may want to talk to the guys that work voluntarily for the text team. And no, I don't presume to talk for them. Who knows, they may be all for it and not mind at all making changes to the file. Lets not forget the hard coded text that according to tysok won't be changed.. his quote from the old thread..

So, why shouldn't the hard coded file be updated to support women's leagues? You may not want or need it but "Paying cusotmer X" may complain it should be in. Who are we to tell him he is wrong?

Same for face-gen. You are ok without it but what about the guy that wants it. How do we tell him no, when women's leagues are officially part of the game?

Exactly, if a few people want face-gen for women it should eventually be added, right?






How do women age compared to men? How do their skills develop and decline? What data do you use to make these decisions? Someone that plays the game is going to be harping on how it isn't realistic just like they do for the men's development.

Or are you only asking for a "woman flag" and they use the same development as men with less strength and smaller physical size, which would still require some face-gen work? Would people be happy with this?

It just seems like a lot of work for something that the vast majority would never use.

Ghana is apples to oranges and is a way overdone example that many try to use for many reasons. It's a location in a geographical database that took no development time to add. I would imagine taken right from files that already existed at SI for the use in FM. I suppose Markus could have went through that file and removed any countries that don't play baseball but why take the time? The only thing saved would have been a few kb on your hard drive.

I understand you want it in the game but blaming it on sexism and saying but I don't mean Markus? Who do you think decides if it goes in the game? Remember there is no reason other than blatant sexism according to two posters now, so does that make Markus "sexist"? I get it lets insult everone that doesn't support the idea but exclude the developer, nice.

I can't speak for Markus but my sense is that economically it's just not worth the programing time to put it in when you are trying to market your game to as many people as possible. This is why, after the Sega, SI split, real player rosters are being hyped again. They appeal to a larger group of potential customers. I really don't think it's anything more than that.

Too bad we can't find a way too play the race card to and shame anyone that argues against this idea being officially supported (lets all remember it is something that can already easily be done with a mod) in the game.

In the end my argument is that officially putting in women's leagues opens the "support can of worms". When a mod adds it, it needs no support nor should any be expected. When Markus adds a feature it becomes something a paying customer has a right to ask about.

Many here say "oh, no we don't need a lot we only want a simpler way to play with a women's league". Pbp text files and name files interchangeable without having to mod the game. Good enough and I hope these get done though I don't see why they are only connected with women's leagues? Again though, once you can hit a "create women's league" button how is Markus not liable to support it? Who are all of you to say "just text and no face-gen is good enough and all we are asking for"? What about the next paying customer that wants more?

Make pbp text and name files selectable for each league and leave it at that. Mods can then create a women's name file and pbp text the same as one could create a Negro League or even a Martian League specific pbp text and name file if they desire.

It has nothing to do with sexism.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Sweed

In the end my argument is that officially putting in women's leagues opens the "support can of worms". When a mod adds it, it needs no support nor should any be expected. When Markus adds a feature it becomes something a paying customer has a right to ask about.

That is one of the more reasonable arguments that has been put forward, and in the end may be part of why Markus doesn't add more things like this.

Having said that, it isn't going to stop me from raising the issue from time to time, because if nothing else it generates debate, which can only be a good thing.

No-one has answered my question by the way, of why a decent funded and competently run women's league couldn't work in real life.

[Cooleyvol]

A women's league would have to play during MLB's offseason, putting in cold weather. No viewers during MLB season (see WNBA).

There's already a women's professional softball league. Do you watch that? Is it even on the tube?

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

A women's league would have to play during MLB's offseason, putting in cold weather. No viewers during MLB season (see WNBA).

There's already a women's professional softball league. Do you watch that? Is it even on the tube?

I never said it had to be successful, just self sustaining, which the WNBA seems to be for the most part.

I dunno if the softball league is on TV, I'd watch it if was and I could find a stream of it though.