Another update

[Goodsox]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Maybe he/she/it forgot that his/her/its IP adress can be ban, wich made the new alias creation kind of pointless...

Anyway only a coward create a new account because he/she/it affraid to be ban. If You (Mancandy) want us to give any credibility to your words at least use your real account and stop being a little coward. Maybe there will be consequences but at least you will be able to say you acted like an adult doing so and not like a little coward...

While I don't agree at all with Mancandy's opinion, I did check and this is not another member of the board. If it is, he is doing a great job using a completely different ip that does not match anyone on the forums. Is it possible it is still an alias? Sure, but it does not appear to be.

[Critical Mass]

I've just read all 10 pages in this thread. Here's my two cents in the matter:

I started playing simmed baseball back on my Commodore 64 with MicroLeague Baseball, and moved on to Earl Weaver Baseball, Hardball, MLB, etc. While OOTP 11 was my first introduction to this franchise, I must agree that it is the best, most in-depth baseball sim I've ever played.

With all that said, I also must agree with ManCandy, even though I'm not as upset as he is.

I think the biggest question, which nobody seems to have addressed is, "What is an acceptable amount of time to pre-sell a product?" In my opinion, the minute I paid my money for the pre-order I became a customer, and as a customer, I do feel that since we don't have the product in our hands, we should at least have SOMETHING to hang our hats on. Screenshots, features, more exact release date... SOMETHING. I know some of you "old timers" are saying, "Yes, we agree, that would be nice, but just be patient and play OOTP11," but in my mind, that is an unacceptable answer. Yes, OOTP11 is a great game, but if we ALL just sat back and played OOTP11 forever, there would be no need to purchase a new version, would there?

I understand, also, that this is a small business, and there's not a team of hundreds of people working to get this game out. However, like Mancandy said, the minute someone decides to solicit money for a service, it becomes a BUSINESS, not a hobby, and when you run a business, your customers demand to be treated with a certain amount of respect. IN MY OPINION (as a manager with over 10+ years of experience), there is definitely something lacking in this case, and that becomes especially true with the customers voicing their frustration are having their accounts deleted.

"He has a life" is not an acceptable excuse. Neither is: "Well it's always been this way" or "He's busy working on another project". If you made reservations at a restaurant, but when you showed up you were told there was a three-hour delay because the chef was at the zoo with his family, or the chef was still at his other job, or even worse, "Don't worry about it, we're always running behind!" you would simply stop giving your business to that restaurant, I'm sure.

The way I see it, I couldn't care less about whether it was released in March, April, May, June, 2013, or whatever... AS LONG AS I HAVEN'T PAID FOR IT YET. My feeling changes when I willingly paid for something a full two months ago, and the only update I have is that "I was busy working on another project". That bothers me a little bit.

I really hope that OOTP12 knocks my socks off, because if it's just a souped-up version of OOTP11 I will be very disappointed, and won't be purchasing any more in the future.

[CD1083]

Here are the things everybody has to consider.

Programming is hard. REALLY hard. Coding takes a long time and every change you make can have an effect on something else.

With that being known, large developers spend lots of money and time and people to ensure they meet their deadline because they know people will bitch and complain if the game doesn't come out on the day they said it would.

Here we have a couple guys working very hard to produce a game lots of people love. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to pin point a release date months ahead of time?

That's just the technical side of things.

On the business side you've got a game to market. There is a strong desire to ensure people outside of these forums are aware of the product. The only way to do that is to announce a product and release time which is commonly a quarter (1st Quarter/2nd Quarter/ etc) Funding is required to keep production moving forward.

If you just release a product cold turky one day, you've now got to go months before enough word of mouth has spread of it's release and in that time sales are lost.

In the end what this all means is the game will come out, it will be great and we all get to look forward to doing this again next year.

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by Critical Mass

"What is an acceptable amount of time to pre-sell a product?" In my opinion, the minute I paid my money for the pre-order I became a customer

I quote you but it's more a general comment for all the complainers than anything else, so don't take it personal.

If waiting 4 or 5 months is that much of a big deal to you I give you one advice : Never pre-order book you will have an heart attack... One time I've waited two years for one to be release after I paid 50$ to pre-order it and it wasn't a big deal to me since I understand that I had to wait...

Collecting movies and books is sure not for the "I want it now generation" if they can't wait just some months...

As other said nobody is forced to pre-order and nobody came to my home with a gun to force me to do it again. If for you 30$ cause so much stress or monetary problem don't pre-order and wait the release to purchase, it's just 10$ more to relax for some months and make a tons of benefits with the 30$ saved by not pre-ordering.

[silvam14]

Hey, a least iootp will be out soon!

Edit: okay, this wasn't helpful!

[endgame]

If any of you wonder why some think this gets old, the thread that follows is five years old. Look familiar?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...l-whining.html

[Critical Mass]

I decided I wanted to come on and edit my comments before anybody saw them, but I see that's too late. I just wanted to stress two points:

1) I'm not upset so much about the release date. It's correct that no specific date was published, and yes, I would be more upset if a date was set and kept getting pushed back. If the makers of OOTP12 need another two months to make a quality product, then so be it, I don't mind waiting. My biggest concern is all the talk about iOOTP and OOTP13. Don't bite off more than you can chew! If you're taking pre-orders, 100% of the working time should be spent on OOTP12. Finish one thing before you start another, OR have other people working on the secondary project. I would like to think that Marcus is more concerned with making a quality product that everybody loves FIRST, and making money SECOND. Unfortunately, these actions imply that the money is primary. Maybe a new release every year, and now the addition of OOTP apps is just too much for him to handle, in which case he should slow down before he dilutes the quality of the product.

2) I don't think people are upset so much about the money or the date. I think the best way to describe it is like a Philly sports fan: The entire country looks at Phjladelphia sports fans as arrogant, violent, and nasty. This is NOT the truth. Philly fans are PASSIONATE. Philly fans stick by their teams, whether it's the 1998 Phillies (crap) or 2008 Phillies (champs). ALL we ask is that the teams and players love US the same way we love THEM. The athletes that played here for many years and gave it their all LOVED it here! Pete Rose, Lenny Dykstra, Brian Dawkins, Julius Erving, Bob Clarke, Ron Jaworski, and the list goes on. Many of them chose to live in the area after their playing days. They know that if you try to give it your all, we love them, but if we sense that you don't care about the game or about us, we boo the heck out of you.

I think the same applies here. We were ASKED to show our loyalty, love, and support by paying early, and a lot of us have done that. We're now just ANXIOUSLY awaiting some results, even if it's just a taste. I equate this to shelling out $100 for tickets to a ball game, and your team is already down 5-0 in the first, and as the starting pitcher is getting pulled from the game and gets boos rained down on him, he looks up and gives the fans the finger. That's truly the way I feel. Just show us the same loyalty and devotion that you're asking us to show you. I don't think that's too much to ask.

With all that said, I'm STILL loyally playing OOTP11, and STILL waiting for an update on OOTP12. Please don't disappoint...

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Critical Mass

I've just read all 10 pages in this thread. Here's my two cents in the matter:

I started playing simmed baseball back on my Commodore 64 with MicroLeague Baseball, and moved on to Earl Weaver Baseball, Hardball, MLB, etc. While OOTP 11 was my first introduction to this franchise, I must agree that it is the best, most in-depth baseball sim I've ever played.

With all that said, I also must agree with ManCandy, even though I'm not as upset as he is.

I think the biggest question, which nobody seems to have addressed is, "What is an acceptable amount of time to pre-sell a product?" In my opinion, the minute I paid my money for the pre-order I became a customer, and as a customer, I do feel that since we don't have the product in our hands, we should at least have SOMETHING to hang our hats on. Screenshots, features, more exact release date... SOMETHING. I know some of you "old timers" are saying, "Yes, we agree, that would be nice, but just be patient and play OOTP11," but in my mind, that is an unacceptable answer. Yes, OOTP11 is a great game, but if we ALL just sat back and played OOTP11 forever, there would be no need to purchase a new version, would there?

I understand, also, that this is a small business, and there's not a team of hundreds of people working to get this game out. However, like Mancandy said, the minute someone decides to solicit money for a service, it becomes a BUSINESS, not a hobby, and when you run a business, your customers demand to be treated with a certain amount of respect. IN MY OPINION (as a manager with over 10+ years of experience), there is definitely something lacking in this case, and that becomes especially true with the customers voicing their frustration are having their accounts deleted.

"He has a life" is not an acceptable excuse. Neither is: "Well it's always been this way" or "He's busy working on another project". If you made reservations at a restaurant, but when you showed up you were told there was a three-hour delay because the chef was at the zoo with his family, or the chef was still at his other job, or even worse, "Don't worry about it, we're always running behind!" you would simply stop giving your business to that restaurant, I'm sure.

The way I see it, I couldn't care less about whether it was released in March, April, May, June, 2013, or whatever... AS LONG AS I HAVEN'T PAID FOR IT YET. My feeling changes when I willingly paid for something a full two months ago, and the only update I have is that "I was busy working on another project". That bothers me a little bit.

I really hope that OOTP12 knocks my socks off, because if it's just a souped-up version of OOTP11 I will be very disappointed, and won't be purchasing any more in the future.

I've been reading this thread with the intention of staying out of this yearly waste of time.

I am an "oldtimer" that has no problem with waiting for the game to release in the period of time it was promised in, IE spring. Yes, I pre-ordered on day one so Markus has my money like he does every year. I would love the game on opening day or before but I also understand this is the way it works so I don't sweat it.

If I made a reservation for "spring" and was then served during "spring" I would have no reason to complain. If it becomes "summer" than I may have an issue. I know I won't be calling the chef to see how the meal preparation is coming along, nor will I be expecting the chef to call me with updates. Sounds silly doesn't it when talking about dinner at a restaurant? Almost as silly as comparing a restaurant reservation with a software developer. The two simply don't equate, apples and oranges when it comes to product and delivery of product.

As someone that has been here awhile I can tell you this is the way Markus is, period. He may try to post more often at times but will in the end revert to what you see now. I have no problem at all with that as long as the game is released in the announced time frame, which it has been every year. Nobody here is saying, "Don't worry about it, we're always running behind!", because Markus is not running behind.

You may think that is bad business. You may feel you are owed reports and screen shots. My experience tells me you're not going to get them because "that is just the way it is", whether any of us like it or not. If you can't accept that then you may want to not pre-order since Markus having your money seems to be key to your stress.

Nothing anyone has said in this thread about how bad this is for Markus' business hasn't been said before. Yet, he doesn't change, still sells games, and stays in business.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Hey, a least iootp will be out soon!

Edit: okay, this wasn't helpful!

You were in fine form 5 years ago.

Good lord, who keeps pulling the strings on all of the "I pre-ordered therfore I am owed something" chatty Kathy dolls?

[cibl commish]

Originally Posted by endgame

If any of you wonder why some think this gets old, the thread that follows is five years old. Look familiar?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...l-whining.html

Same old annual exercise.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by RchW

You were in fine form 5 years ago.

I just read that myself and laughed. Styx even called me spineless!

Ahhh what it was like to be young and full of life back then!

[Rebington]

As someone who has endured year after year of semi playable versions of the Football Manager/ Championship Manager series - followed by patches, delays, half started games before you find the next bug and have to wait for another patch, threads on the boards full of complaints and the same arguments, excuses from SI Games that nobody cares about etc' - I far prefer to wait for a finished product.

Sure, ideal world ootp12 would have been out a month ago - but given the recent track record of (almost) bugless versions of the game (which is especially important when you're in an OL with years of history that could be lost with a buggy version) - I trust that when the game does arrive it will be completely playable and the wait will have been worth it. if there are any small problems post release then the response time on getting things fixed has always been excellent in the past.

the team working on ootp12 also gets more understanding from me because they're not Eidos, SI Games, EA Sports etc' - who have the resources to rush things to meet deadlines... and ultimately if a delayed release is so upsetting to people vote with your wallets and dont buy the next version.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Hey, a least iootp will be out soon!

Edit: okay, this wasn't helpful!

No, but it was really funny.

[Gambo]

That was one scary thread. We should just copy all the posts into this thread and really confuse people.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by clwalcott

Anyway, I note people get very defensive when others point out their frustration over the delay of release (and simply because it has been June in the past is no excuse, saying it has always been late is not really good enough IMO), as though Markus and team are doing us all a big favour by making this game. It's a business. We are paying customers. At the very least perhaps do a poll asking if people would be willing to pay more for the game to have it released on time.

This is one of my favourite games to play, and Markus should be extremely proud of how passionate his customer's are about the game, but really this issue needs to be addressed.

And yet, when we address it, you accuse of of getting very defensive. I'll even own to to it: When I see someone get attacked who doesn't deserve it, I defend them.

Originally Posted by silvam14

There is just no buzz this year. The boards are dead and we are a month into the real baseball season. Just doesn't seem right compared to most years.

Sorry, silvam, but I just had to laugh at this. I mentioned to someone less than a week ago how the board hadn't gone dead this year like it usually does. This level of traffic is very comfortable for me.

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Its amazing that this happens every year.

What amazes me are the posters whose 'join date' is two or more years ago, because they know how things work around here. I can almost forgive the people who've joined since Version 10 was released, because they have no personal experience of the game being released (much) after Opening Day.

Originally Posted by tigey75

We should take a poll to see which is more annoying.....the people who complain that the game is not out yet.....or the people who get violently angry at the people who complain that the game is not out yet.

THIS IS A GREAT IDEA!!!

Originally Posted by Sweed

I've been reading this thread with the intention of staying out of this yearly waste of time.

I am an "oldtimer" that has no problem with waiting for the game to release in the period of time it was promised in, IE spring. Yes, I pre-ordered on day one so Markus has my money like he does every year. I would love the game on opening day or before but I also understand this is the way it works so I don't sweat it.

If I made a reservation for "spring" and was then served during "spring" I would have no reason to complain. If it becomes "summer" than I may have an issue. I know I won't be calling the chef to see how the meal preparation is coming along, nor will I be expecting the chef to call me with updates. Sounds silly doesn't it when talking about dinner at a restaurant? Almost as silly as comparing a restaurant reservation with a software developer. The two simply don't equate, apples and oranges when it comes to product and delivery of product.

As someone that has been here awhile I can tell you this is the way Markus is, period. He may try to post more often at times but will in the end revert to what you see now. I have no problem at all with that as long as the game is released in the announced time frame, which it has been every year. Nobody here is saying, "Don't worry about it, we're always running behind!", because Markus is not running behind.

You may think that is bad business. You may feel you are owed reports and screen shots. My experience tells me you're not going to get them because "that is just the way it is", whether any of us like it or not. If you can't accept that then you may want to not pre-order since Markus having your money seems to be key to your stress.

Nothing anyone has said in this thread about how bad this is for Markus' business hasn't been said before. Yet, he doesn't change, still sells games, and stays in business.

… and we have a winner!

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Curtis

And yet, when we address it, you accuse of of getting very defensive. I'll even own to to it: When I see someone get attacked who doesn't deserve it, I defend them.



Sorry, silvam, but I just had to laugh at this. I mentioned to someone less than a week ago how the board hadn't gone dead this year like it usually does.

Fair enough. I won't argue your assertion.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Gambo

That was one scary thread. We should just copy all the posts into this thread and really confuse people.

It looks pretty much like this one plus or minus some people. Well, except for Silvam changing sides.

[mort4785]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Maybe he/she/it forgot that his/her/its IP adress can be ban, wich made the new alias creation kind of pointless...

Anyway only a coward create a new account because he/she/it affraid to be ban. If You (Mancandy) want us to give any credibility to your words at least use your real account and stop being a little coward. Maybe there will be consequences but at least you will be able to say you acted like an adult doing so and not like a little coward...

I griped about the same stuff and my 9 year account was banned.....

[AESP_pres]

I'm sure the reason you lost your account is more because of the way you wrote than because of what you wrote about.

Don't forget you got infractions really fast in one of the thread you were in before being ban... I even thing you have two of them in the same pages.

[mort4785]

Yeah...I was mad and said some douchebag stuff...no ones fault but my own.

I deserved some sort of ban.

Temp would of been nice