Odd pitcher win/loss decisions

kultrva · 03-14-2011, 01:44 PM

I don't know a whole lot about how winning and losing pitchers are determined, but I just finished a game and this seems really strange.

First of all, Moran gave up 5 runs in 3 innings, yet Takaki, who had no earned runs, got slapped with the loss. That doesn't seem right to me.

On Ladera's side, King obviously should not walk away with a win, but Hunt only pitched .1 innings and during that time gave up a run, yet he still got the win. Though he is a closer, Muto had the best performance of any of Ladera's pitchers and deserves the win over the other 3. I guess he didn't get the win because he was a closer?

So I ask you, does this decision seem odd or incorrect? Or do I just have more to learn when it comes to w/l decisions?

Sparrow · 03-14-2011, 01:51 PM

Moran pitched poorly but after he departed, the game later became tied. After he departs (or once the next pitcher throws a pitch) if the game becomes tied, or his team takes the lead, he is no longer the pitcher of record.

Takaki gave up the "winning" run. It was a tie ball game and he gave up the run that gave Ladera the lead for good. Hunt was the pitcher for Ladera when they scored their sixth run so it is now his win.

Ladera already had the lead when Yamaguchi and Muto pitched and this lead was not relinquished so they could not get the win.

Hope this helps.

So essentially the pitchers who are "on the mound" when the winning team takes the lead for the last time gets the decision. The exception (that I know of) being a starting pitcher must pitch 5 innings to be considered for the win.

kultrva · 03-14-2011, 02:15 PM

Thanks for your post. That makes a lot more sense now. I always thought that the decision was solely based on the numbers. Guess you learn something new every day.

mike2228 · 03-14-2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kultrva

Thanks for your post. That makes a lot more sense now. I always thought that the decision was solely based on the numbers. Guess you learn something new every day.

Where are you from dude? Are you new to baseball?

Tony M · 03-14-2011, 03:05 PM

I think this is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the simple W-L for pitchers. If you're pulled after 7 perfect innings say with a one-run lead, your next reliever gives up a run, and your team score again in the bottom of the 8th you won't get the win.

If the starter leaves the game with the lead he should at least get something in the stats for it (maybe have three new measures, RW, RL, RT for Relieved when Winning, Relieved when Losing, Relieved when Tied)

mike2228 · 03-14-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony M

I think this is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the simple W-L for pitchers. If you're pulled after 7 perfect innings say with a one-run lead, your next reliever gives up a run, and your team score again in the bottom of the 8th you won't get the win.

If the starter leaves the game with the lead he should at least get something in the stats for it (maybe have three new measures, RW, RL, RT for Relieved when Winning, Relieved when Losing, Relieved when Tied)

quality starts exist for that purpose basically.

kultrva · 03-14-2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike2228

Where are you from dude? Are you new to baseball?

I wouldn't say that I'm new to baseball. I certainly don't know what veteran fans know, but I'm working on learning.

And would it really be a bad assumption to think that the pitcher who performs the best (on the winning team) gets the win? Or that the pitcher who does the worst (on the losing team, of course) gets the loss? That would seem logical, but as I said, I'm still learning the intricacies of the sport. Sorry that my asking questions bothers you.

mike2228 · 03-14-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kultrva

I wouldn't say that I'm new to baseball. I certainly don't know what veteran fans know, but I'm working on learning.

And would it really be a bad assumption to think that the pitcher who performs the best (on the winning team) gets the win? Or that the pitcher who does the worst (on the losing team, of course) gets the loss? That would seem logical, but as I said, I'm still learning the intricacies of the sport. Sorry that my asking questions bothers you.

I thought what I said might be taken as a subtly negative remark and I can assure you it wasn't. I have no problem with you asking questions. I just thought that was a fairly well known rule. We seem to get the occasional European here who got introduced to baseball because of the game, rather than what I assume is more often the case: people introducing themselves to the game through/ because of their love of the sport.

But as far as your question goes, I like the way they do it now. It removes any subjectivity. If the win was given to the best pitcher surely there would be disagreements or ties.

tejdog1 · 03-15-2011, 08:50 PM

Basically, in practicality:

Scneario A: Johan Santana goes 7 innings giving up 2 runs, leaves with a 3-2 lead, bullpen fires 2 perfect innings, Santana gets the W

Scenario B: Johan Santana goes 7.1 innings giving up 2 runs, leaves with runners on 1st and 2nd. Reliever comes in and allows both runs to score, Mets do not score anymore, Santana takes the loss, his official line is 7.1 ip, 4 er.

Scenario C: Johan Santana goes 7 innings giving up 2 runs, leaves with a 3-2 lead. Reliever gives up his own run(s). Santana gets a ND (no decision), Reliever gets a BS, and a L if he gives up the lead and the Mets fail to score.

Those are the three basic outcomes.

Bahgoon · 03-16-2011, 10:39 AM

Fark. I had a big post ready to go and the forum ate it.

The essentials are about half way down on this page:

Win

In the case of a starter not making it 5 innings, the official scorer can award the victory to whichever reliever s/he deems most effective. However, the default seems to be whichever reliever finishes the 5th inning (assuming his team had the lead at that time).

The other thing that is not intuitively obvious is if a pitcher is trailing and gets lifted for a pitch hitter. If the team scores enough to take the lead during that half inning (before the reliever takes the mound) the pitcher who was hit for would still get the win.

Hope that makes sense.

Chicagofan76 · 03-16-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kultrva

I wouldn't say that I'm new to baseball. I certainly don't know what veteran fans know, but I'm working on learning.

And would it really be a bad assumption to think that the pitcher who performs the best (on the winning team) gets the win? Or that the pitcher who does the worst (on the losing team, of course) gets the loss? That would seem logical, but as I said, I'm still learning the intricacies of the sport. Sorry that my asking questions bothers you.

it doesnt bother anyone, dont think that, but even i had to chuckle at his question...i love seeing new fans of my fav game, even if your learning something at say 22(dont know your age) that some of us learned at 8.
I love teaching people about baseball, everyone who knows me IRL knows to call me if they have a baseball related question. keep asking the questions we will keep answering them (wish i woulda seen the thread 1st

)

kultrva · 03-16-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

it doesnt bother anyone, dont think that, but even i had to chuckle at his question...i love seeing new fans of my fav game, even if your learning something at say 22(dont know your age) that some of us learned at 8.
I love teaching people about baseball, everyone who knows me IRL knows to call me if they have a baseball related question. keep asking the questions we will keep answering them (wish i woulda seen the thread 1st

)

You're very close about my age; I'll be turning 22 in June.

I stumbled upon OOTP awhile back and fell in love with it. This game is really what sparked my interest in baseball. Before OOTP, I knew what ERA, AVG, OBP, etc. meant and how the core of the game worked... Just the really basic stuff. When I started playing OOTP excessively, I began learning some of more obscure things.

The pitcher W/L decisions kind of threw me off because to me, it was (and honestly still is to some extent) a little counter-intuitive. You know, a pitcher who only pitches 0.1 innings can "win" the game.

Regardless, I appreciate all of the helpful responses I've received in this forum, both in this thread and others. I love this forum due to its plethora of kind, helpful users; you don't find something like that every day.

I just hope that someday I'll know enough about baseball to be able to assist future users who are in my shoes. So please just bear with me while I learn more.

03-14-2011, 01:44 PM	#1
kultrva Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 48	Odd pitcher win/loss decisions I don't know a whole lot about how winning and losing pitchers are determined, but I just finished a game and this seems really strange. First of all, Moran gave up 5 runs in 3 innings, yet Takaki, who had no earned runs, got slapped with the loss. That doesn't seem right to me. On Ladera's side, King obviously should not walk away with a win, but Hunt only pitched .1 innings and during that time gave up a run, yet he still got the win. Though he is a closer, Muto had the best performance of any of Ladera's pitchers and deserves the win over the other 3. I guess he didn't get the win because he was a closer? So I ask you, does this decision seem odd or incorrect? Or do I just have more to learn when it comes to w/l decisions? Attached Images

03-14-2011, 02:15 PM	#3
kultrva Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 48	Thanks for your post. That makes a lot more sense now. I always thought that the decision was solely based on the numbers. Guess you learn something new every day. Last edited by kultrva; 03-14-2011 at 02:20 PM.

03-15-2011, 08:50 PM	#9
tejdog1 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Danbury, CT Posts: 1,650	Basically, in practicality: Scneario A: Johan Santana goes 7 innings giving up 2 runs, leaves with a 3-2 lead, bullpen fires 2 perfect innings, Santana gets the W Scenario B: Johan Santana goes 7.1 innings giving up 2 runs, leaves with runners on 1st and 2nd. Reliever comes in and allows both runs to score, Mets do not score anymore, Santana takes the loss, his official line is 7.1 ip, 4 er. Scenario C: Johan Santana goes 7 innings giving up 2 runs, leaves with a 3-2 lead. Reliever gives up his own run(s). Santana gets a ND (no decision), Reliever gets a BS, and a L if he gives up the lead and the Mets fail to score. Those are the three basic outcomes. __________________ It's amazing How you make your face just like a wall How you take your heart and turn it off How I turn my head and lose it all And it's unnerving How just one move puts me by myself There you go just trusting someone else Now I know I put us both through hell ~Matchbox 20, "Leave" Everyone knows it's spelled "TRAID", not trade

03-14-2011, 01:51 PM	#2
Sparrow All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 803	Moran pitched poorly but after he departed, the game later became tied. After he departs (or once the next pitcher throws a pitch) if the game becomes tied, or his team takes the lead, he is no longer the pitcher of record. Takaki gave up the "winning" run. It was a tie ball game and he gave up the run that gave Ladera the lead for good. Hunt was the pitcher for Ladera when they scored their sixth run so it is now his win. Ladera already had the lead when Yamaguchi and Muto pitched and this lead was not relinquished so they could not get the win. Hope this helps. So essentially the pitchers who are "on the mound" when the winning team takes the lead for the last time gets the decision. The exception (that I know of) being a starting pitcher must pitch 5 innings to be considered for the win.

03-14-2011, 03:05 PM	#5
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	I think this is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the simple W-L for pitchers. If you're pulled after 7 perfect innings say with a one-run lead, your next reliever gives up a run, and your team score again in the bottom of the 8th you won't get the win. If the starter leaves the game with the lead he should at least get something in the stats for it (maybe have three new measures, RW, RL, RT for Relieved when Winning, Relieved when Losing, Relieved when Tied)

03-16-2011, 10:39 AM	#10
Bahgoon Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 66	Fark. I had a big post ready to go and the forum ate it. The essentials are about half way down on this page: Win In the case of a starter not making it 5 innings, the official scorer can award the victory to whichever reliever s/he deems most effective. However, the default seems to be whichever reliever finishes the 5th inning (assuming his team had the lead at that time). The other thing that is not intuitively obvious is if a pitcher is trailing and gets lifted for a pitch hitter. If the team scores enough to take the lead during that half inning (before the reliever takes the mound) the pitcher who was hit for would still get the win. Hope that makes sense.