Stretching Pitchers Out

SmoothGentleman · 03-07-2011, 03:47 PM

Would be nice if pitchers stamina was more realistic and could be stretched out over time as their body gets used to throwing more. On the adverse, if you push too far too soon it could result in injuries or ineffectiveness.

t-bone shuffle · 03-07-2011, 04:48 PM

Agreed, and more specifically, there's something wrong with a system that allows a pitcher, who's been a reliever all season, to immediately become a starter who can throw 6 or 7 innings (and 100+ pitches) simply because his role is changed from "releiver" to "starter".

IRL, this guy might be able to give you 5 innings or 75 - 85 pitches in his first start or two.

The whole "stamina" rating is a bit confusing to say the least.

Curtis · 03-07-2011, 11:11 PM

Honestly, I'd like to see the whole thing simplified:
Red=only good for once through the order—maybe less
Orange=good for twice through the order
Yellow=good for three times through the order
Green=good four times through the order (the maximum you'd see over the past 20-25 years)
Blue=Let's pitch two!

I don't think the numbers are really necessary. And I agree with t-bone that relievers should need to be stretched out, not just jump into the rotation. I don't agree that pitchers should be able to increase their basic stamina rating, though it should decrease as the pitcher ages.

PSUColonel · 03-08-2011, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis

Honestly, I'd like to see the whole thing simplified:
Red=only good for once through the order—maybe less
Orange=good for twice through the order
Yellow=good for three times through the order
Green=good four times through the order (the maximum you'd see over the past 20-25 years)
Blue=Let's pitch two!

I don't think the numbers are really necessary. And I agree with t-bone that relievers should need to be stretched out, not just jump into the rotation. I don't agree that pitchers should be able to increase their basic stamina rating, though it should decrease as the pitcher ages.

You cannot judge a pitcher on how many times he can or cannot go through the order...pitch counts are always different. You could potentially use up 20 pitches on two batters. This proposal makes no sense at all.

BadluckinOOTP · 03-08-2011, 01:14 AM

Maybe this in the game, and I'm too dumb to realize it, but I'd like to see degenerative endurance. If a reliever with two pitches that has a 17 (out of 20) endurance rating pitches out of the bullpen for 10 straight years, I'd like to see that endurance rating go down. Even if it's just cosmetic.

On the flip side if you have a reliever with a 4 (out of 20) rating, and you stick him in the rotation in the minors for a year, stretching him out, maybe some small bumps up to a certain point to where he can routinely go 6 or 7 innings.

OBSL Commish · 03-08-2011, 09:31 AM

It would be cool if Markus could introduce the "Verducci effect" into OOTP, which is a theory proposed by Tom Verducci that a substantial increase in a young pitcher's workload from one year to the next -- 30 innings or more -- raises that player's injury risk. I don't know how hard that would be to implement. Maybe the player experiences more soreness than usual after a certain point, which means he needs some rest, but we could also be given the option to shut him down for the season if need be.

Dregen · 03-08-2011, 10:25 AM

That is a good idea, there should be a system in place where managers and pitching coaches can influence a pitchers stamina.

fintach · 03-08-2011, 11:07 AM

As I understand it though, Endurance addresses two factors: pitch count in one appearance and recovery time between two appearances. If we judge it solely on what it can do during a given appearance, we lose the recovery aspect, which is important to both starters and relievers, I believe.

A reliever with an Endurance of 8 or 9 out of 10 is the kind who can handle being run out there just about every day, even if his daily pitch count is nothing compared to a starter with a comparable Endurance.

Maria Nieves · 03-08-2011, 02:51 PM

Verducci Effect is hypothetical.

Modern relief pitchers are totally different than how relief pitchers have been used in different eras.

Stretching out was made famous with Joba Chamberlain.

Curtis · 03-08-2011, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBSL Commish

It would be cool if Markus could introduce the "Verducci effect" into OOTP, which is a theory proposed by Tom Verducci that a substantial increase in a young pitcher's workload from one year to the next -- 30 innings or more -- raises that player's injury risk. I don't know how hard that would be to implement. Maybe the player experiences more soreness than usual after a certain point, which means he needs some rest, but we could also be given the option to shut him down for the season if need be.

I wouldn't mind this at all, but I'd want to get e-mails notifying me that a pitcher had hit (or better yet was about to hit) his 'Verducci number'. I don't want to have to keep track of that myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintach

As I understand it though, Endurance addresses two factors: pitch count in one appearance and recovery time between two appearances.

That's true for the game today. I don't think it's desirable. I'd rather have those as separate ratings (endurance and bounceback?).

Cryomaniac · 03-09-2011, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria Nieves

Stretching out was made famous with Joba Chamberlain.

That didn't exactly work brilliantly though, did it?

DiMaggio5CF · 03-09-2011, 02:22 PM

I don't know if this has been incorporated into the game yet, but I'd like to see being a successful starter or reliever be based on types of pitches the guy throws.

A guy who throws enough different pitches of reasonable quality has a good shot to be a good starter, and a guy who throws only one or two pitches well is probably more started to be a reliever.

If you have a guy with a good pitch or two but his secondary stuff is poor or non-existent, then you're going to have to develop and/or teach more secondary stuff to make him a good starter. The tough judgement call is where a guy has a plus pitch or two and his secondary stuff is there but below average; is the secondary stuff just good enough to be successful as a starter, or is it the pen for him?

If you're looking for starting pitching in the draft, do you take the guy who has four average pitches, or do you take the guy who has a blazing heater and a good curve but not much else? The first guy is the low-ceiling safer bet, but the second guy is high-risk with more potential.

I know this is only loosely related to the topic of pitcher endurance, but when it comes to starting/relieving, I'd like to see quality and quantity of pitch types play a bigger role. I'd also like to see pitcher and hitter types (fastball pitchers vs good fastball hitters, and junkballers vs breaking ball hitters, for example) to create more realistic matchup and therefore a more realistic game, but that's a discussion for a different topic (not that this post was completely relevent to this topic).

falkonisback · 03-09-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria Nieves

Verducci Effect is hypothetical.

Modern relief pitchers are totally different than how relief pitchers have been used in different eras.

Stretching out was made famous with Joba Chamberlain.

Maybe Markus should ask Dusty Baker to write this part of the code

Layton is my Homeboy · 03-09-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiMaggio5CF

I don't know if this has been incorporated into the game yet, but I'd like to see being a successful starter or reliever be based on types of pitches the guy throws.

A guy who throws enough different pitches of reasonable quality has a good shot to be a good starter, and a guy who throws only one or two pitches well is probably more started to be a reliever.

That is, in fact, already part of the game: link.

Vinny P. · 03-09-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmoothGentleman

Would be nice if pitchers stamina was more realistic and could be stretched out over time as their body gets used to throwing more. On the adverse, if you push too far too soon it could result in injuries or ineffectiveness.

I've already suggested this at one point, and was shouted down by a bunch of people that that "wasn't realistic! Doesn't happen IRL!"

tejdog1 · 03-10-2011, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

I've already suggested this at one point, and was shouted down by a bunch of people that that "wasn't realistic! Doesn't happen IRL!"

Have they heard of Braden Looper? And that's just one example.

Wasn't Brandon Morrow a reliever?

How about Aaron Heilman in 'Zona?

Vinny P. · 03-10-2011, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tejdog1

Have they heard of Braden Looper? And that's just one example.

Wasn't Brandon Morrow a reliever?

How about Aaron Heilman in 'Zona?

I think their arguments were about HOW to go about implementing it in the game. Like, what should spike a rise in stamina, how, and why. I figured it wouldn;t be any different from any other rating that changes.

03-07-2011, 03:47 PM	#1
SmoothGentleman Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 429	Stretching Pitchers Out Would be nice if pitchers stamina was more realistic and could be stretched out over time as their body gets used to throwing more. On the adverse, if you push too far too soon it could result in injuries or ineffectiveness.

03-07-2011, 04:48 PM	#2
t-bone shuffle All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The dull edge of the blade Posts: 867	Agreed, and more specifically, there's something wrong with a system that allows a pitcher, who's been a reliever all season, to immediately become a starter who can throw 6 or 7 innings (and 100+ pitches) simply because his role is changed from "releiver" to "starter". IRL, this guy might be able to give you 5 innings or 75 - 85 pitches in his first start or two. The whole "stamina" rating is a bit confusing to say the least. Last edited by t-bone shuffle; 03-08-2011 at 10:33 AM.

03-08-2011, 01:14 AM	#5
BadluckinOOTP All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: OKC Posts: 1,534	Maybe this in the game, and I'm too dumb to realize it, but I'd like to see degenerative endurance. If a reliever with two pitches that has a 17 (out of 20) endurance rating pitches out of the bullpen for 10 straight years, I'd like to see that endurance rating go down. Even if it's just cosmetic. On the flip side if you have a reliever with a 4 (out of 20) rating, and you stick him in the rotation in the minors for a year, stretching him out, maybe some small bumps up to a certain point to where he can routinely go 6 or 7 innings. __________________

03-08-2011, 11:07 AM	#8
fintach Major Leagues Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 484	As I understand it though, Endurance addresses two factors: pitch count in one appearance and recovery time between two appearances. If we judge it solely on what it can do during a given appearance, we lose the recovery aspect, which is important to both starters and relievers, I believe. A reliever with an Endurance of 8 or 9 out of 10 is the kind who can handle being run out there just about every day, even if his daily pitch count is nothing compared to a starter with a comparable Endurance. __________________ Currently managing: The Bridgetown Gruffs History: Portland Purple Knights of the USBL: 1x NL Champs 1970-74 Berkeley Free Radicals of the BBL: 4x Division Title, 3x LCS, 2x Left Coast Cup Champions 2011 Portland River Dragons of the SPL: 1x Division Title 2011 Las Vegas Coyotes (MLB): half season before DH bored me to death.

03-07-2011, 11:11 PM	#3
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	Honestly, I'd like to see the whole thing simplified: Red=only good for once through the order—maybe less Orange=good for twice through the order Yellow=good for three times through the order Green=good four times through the order (the maximum you'd see over the past 20-25 years) Blue=Let's pitch two! I don't think the numbers are really necessary. And I agree with t-bone that relievers should need to be stretched out, not just jump into the rotation. I don't agree that pitchers should be able to increase their basic stamina rating, though it should decrease as the pitcher ages.

03-08-2011, 09:31 AM	#6
OBSL Commish All Star Reserve Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 945	It would be cool if Markus could introduce the "Verducci effect" into OOTP, which is a theory proposed by Tom Verducci that a substantial increase in a young pitcher's workload from one year to the next -- 30 innings or more -- raises that player's injury risk. I don't know how hard that would be to implement. Maybe the player experiences more soreness than usual after a certain point, which means he needs some rest, but we could also be given the option to shut him down for the season if need be.

03-08-2011, 10:25 AM	#7
Dregen Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	That is a good idea, there should be a system in place where managers and pitching coaches can influence a pitchers stamina.

03-08-2011, 02:51 PM	#9
Maria Nieves Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 44	Verducci Effect is hypothetical. Modern relief pitchers are totally different than how relief pitchers have been used in different eras. Stretching out was made famous with Joba Chamberlain.

03-09-2011, 02:22 PM	#12
DiMaggio5CF All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 921	I don't know if this has been incorporated into the game yet, but I'd like to see being a successful starter or reliever be based on types of pitches the guy throws. A guy who throws enough different pitches of reasonable quality has a good shot to be a good starter, and a guy who throws only one or two pitches well is probably more started to be a reliever. If you have a guy with a good pitch or two but his secondary stuff is poor or non-existent, then you're going to have to develop and/or teach more secondary stuff to make him a good starter. The tough judgement call is where a guy has a plus pitch or two and his secondary stuff is there but below average; is the secondary stuff just good enough to be successful as a starter, or is it the pen for him? If you're looking for starting pitching in the draft, do you take the guy who has four average pitches, or do you take the guy who has a blazing heater and a good curve but not much else? The first guy is the low-ceiling safer bet, but the second guy is high-risk with more potential. I know this is only loosely related to the topic of pitcher endurance, but when it comes to starting/relieving, I'd like to see quality and quantity of pitch types play a bigger role. I'd also like to see pitcher and hitter types (fastball pitchers vs good fastball hitters, and junkballers vs breaking ball hitters, for example) to create more realistic matchup and therefore a more realistic game, but that's a discussion for a different topic (not that this post was completely relevent to this topic).