Just wanted to say "Thanks", but...

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Well, there it is in black and white. Want OOTP to keep on existing? Then buy a new copy of the game every year. Not buying one out of pique may one day get you no more OOTP at all again, ever.

Man up and support the best baseball game ever!

If I were the one and only person to keep this company alive then I would do just that. But I'm not. I am one person. I bet at least one person every version does not buy the game.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

If I were the one and only person to keep this company alive then I would do just that. But I'm not. I am one person. I bet at least one person every version does not buy the game.

See it's like this,

You're not helping the "OOTP" cause by advertising that you are not buying the next version for whatever reasons you have. Others read your post and are wondering why you are not and read your reasoning. Most won't care but only the fact that possibly one other person agrees with you and doesn't buy the next version then you have done some harm to Markus sales.

There's already a thread thanking Markus, why was there a need for you to make a new one then add ",but" at the end? I see it as an attempt to have your own desired features in the next version or else... and deep down hoping that others would see it your way.

Markus already mentioned in this thread that he needs all the sales he can get. If you are a real fan of this game that should be enough to understand why we need to support him.

[robc]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Thank you for going out of your way in attempting to make me look bad. It shows a lot of class.

I have been vocal about some aspects of the game that I dislike but I never started a thread so that everyone can read that I was not buying the game. I have bought every version and intend to continue. Anyone trying to dissuade others in buying a new version by making a thread like this one will not get my approval. That's my point. Sorry that you missed it.

Sorry if you think I was trying to make you look bad. I was trying to make a point. People like to post their thoughts on the forum (the OP, you and I included). Sometimes we agree with them and sometimes we don't. You complained that what he did cost sales, but have your own posts that probably would cost more sales. That is all. I'm not claiming you are a bad person (not that my opinion matters in that respect) and I do think your 'vocalness' is good for the game.

If my post shows a lack of class, then so be it. I'm far from perfect. All I did was use you own comments to make a point. In any case, if my post made you feel bad (which it shouldn't since I am just some schmo on a game board) then I am sorry for that.

[shawa666]

My two cents about that.

I'm one of those that want a dynamic financial environment. If I start a new league, I want the finances of the other league(s) to fluctuate because of that. I want the league association LGO has imagined, badly. I want fully customisable playoffs. I want a schedule generator that can do what I want it to do. I play hypothetical scenarios. That's my game.

The game is not where I'd like it to be, yet. And I hope Markus and Andreas will take it in the direction I want it to go.

But I've realised that when I buy a copy of the game, i'm not buyin the software itself. I wanted a copy of the software and only that, I'd pirate the hell of it and would't care about the consequences. No when I spend 30 bucks on the game, i'm buying development time. Plain and simple.

I know that other players may want something that I'm not seeking in this game. It's their choice. But at least Markus and Andreas have shown to be receptive to the ideas I and others would like to be included in the game.

That's why I sent them the money. More than anything.

[silvam14]

I'm of the opinion that CephasJames has earned the right to state his position vis-a-vis buying/not buying the game because of the announced feature list
Is this thread a new thread this time of year? Of course not. These threads always pop up. But given Cj's contributions and devotion to this series which is very apparent if you visit the logos forum, his sincerity or motive for posting this should not be questioned.

Now can we just have League Associations?

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

See it's like this,

You're not helping the "OOTP" cause by advertising that you are not buying the next version for whatever reasons you have. Others read your post and are wondering why you are not and read your reasoning. Most won't care but only the fact that possibly one other person agrees with you and doesn't buy the next version then you have done some harm to Markus sales.

There's already a thread thanking Markus, why was there a need for you to make a new one then add ",but" at the end? I see it as an attempt to have your own desired features in the next version or else... and deep down hoping that others would see it your way.

Markus already mentioned in this thread that he needs all the sales he can get. If you are a real fan of this game that should be enough to understand why we need to support him.

YMMV. Obviously.

[EMSoccerCoach]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Markus already mentioned in this thread that he needs all the sales he can get. If you are a real fan of this game that should be enough to understand why we need to support him.

That's just stupid. "If you're a real fan" doesn't equal buying every version if you don't feel it suits your needs or justifies the expense. That has nothing to do with being a fan of the game...that's just being a lemming.

If the game suits enough people, enough people will buy it. Supply and demand is what supports any business, big or small. It's not a charity and there shouldn't be a "need to support" Markus. If sales drop, it's because the product didn't meet the market desire. If sales rise, it's because Markus did a great job and met the market's desire.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by EMSoccerCoach

That's just stupid. "If you're a real fan" doesn't equal buying every version if you don't feel it suits your needs or justifies the expense. That has nothing to do with being a fan of the game...that's just being a lemming.

If the game suits enough people, enough people will buy it. Supply and demand is what supports any business, big or small. It's not a charity and there shouldn't be a "need to support" Markus. If sales drop, it's because the product didn't meet the market desire. If sales rise, it's because Markus did a great job and met the market's desire.

I would hug you right now if I wasn't so afraid you would punch me. So very well said. Thanks.

[kcroyalgm]

Originally Posted by Queensryche

Since when is being too young to remember something an insult? I mean come ON.
Also, the fanboy/neutral/hater thing, that's just the way it is man. I'm not politically correct, I just state the facts, and the facts are people on this forum are one of the three categories.
Neutral is the best category for sure, and the vast majority of people that view this forum probably fall into that category, but you have plenty of the other two options as well.
Again, it's not politically correct, but it is correct none the less.

You don't just state the facts. You use pejorative terms to describe the groups of people who don't fall into your way of thinking. It's not "just the way it is". If you don't think the terms are pejorative, it's because you as so insistent on not being politically correct. Your posts are, in fact, annoying. Annoying is a pejorative adjective and is used purposefully.

On a more positive note, put me solidly in the camp of buying every version as a measure of support for the effort put forth by Markus and Andreas and everyone else involved in the further development of OOTP. If I don't like a new version after I've bought it, I will state my problems on the forum. I may even put it aside and not use it. But I will never be sorry that I bought it.

[JackRules1]

I pre-ordered the day OOTP12 was available. I'm nearly twice as old as Queensreich and still busting my butt to support my family. There are two games I have supported for years, OOTP and Civilization. When CIV-V came out I was mortified at the negative feedback on CivFanatics forum and I decided not to buy the game. Take2 really butchered a great game and if Markus butchers OOTP12 I won't buy future versions either. But from what I see, OOTP does things right, and I feel confident that my $30 will be $$$ well spent.

To anyone who is reading this thread and wondering if OOTP12 will be worth the investment, I can only say that in the humble opinion of someone who weighs the spending of his entertainment dollars very thoroughly, you will not regret making this purchase. I'm no fanboy; just someone who knows a good deal when he sees it. Enjoy!

[fintach]

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

Feel so alive, watching Babylon 5!

I damn near did a spit take on this one. My wife and I are in the middle of re-watching B5 (literally, just passed the mid-point of Season 3).

[RandyMyers]

I think every game has these types of threads....

I am new to OOTP... I say that up front so I can not claim to be a fanboy or hater ....

I purchased version 11 and have played with it a little. I still play Action! PC more... However, I know a value when I see one. OOTP is a fantastic value.... Most of the competition cost multiple times more simply for each season update. Think about SOM.... not even close to OOTP yet each year you would have to pay 2-3 times more to simply get the new season.... And if you wanted to get all seasons you would be broke (even the 28 year old retired guy)....

I pre-ordered version 12, not because I am going to play the hell out of it... I probably won't (I am hoping to catch on and play it more, but 11 has not pulled me in too much yet).... I pre-ordered version 12 because I see some great things in the game, even if they are not completely my cup of tea.... and for $29.95 it is beyond a great deal... crap I paid more than that for dinner last night.... or every time my wife and I go to the movies, etc....

When a quality game that I have at least a passing interest in is offered for that kind of deal (and the support that Markus give is great) they deserve my money.... PERIOD...

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

That is certainly your right, nobody forces you to buy our games, not even me

But I see it this way: The 'big' companies like EA or Take2 only add 4-5 new features to their games each year, plus updated rosters. We have been adding a minimum of 50 new features & improvements each year since OOTP 1. The problem is, that most of our loyal customers now expect long new feature lists each year. For example, look at the OOTP 11 review on Gamespot. They liked the game, but said something like "not all that different from OOTP 10". The reality is, we added more new stuff in OOTP 11 than all EA sports games in the past 5 years combined.

What do you think would happen if we shifted to the EA-way of doing new versions? Right, we'd sell half as many copies and be out of business within a year. EA can get away with such a strategy since their games sit on the shelves in big stores and 250,000 people buy it without even caring what the new features are, as long as a new professional athlete is on the box.

OK, enough rant, I get back to work...

Growing up in a family that owns a small business, I know how tough it is to keep afloat, and just how easily you can be shut down. But small businesses generally make superior products (in our case, food) to the bigger chains. They kinda have to.

I'm glad you confirmed just how many new features are included in each new version. I mentioned that earlier, and queensryche didn't believe it. lol.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by rich12545

And I don't understand this post. Are you saying people should spend their hard earned money if they don't feel they're getting anything in return? Just to support a business?

And to clarify - by "anything in return" I mean something they want in addition to what they already have.

My cable company gets more in one month than I've spent on OOTP since v5. I seem to get less and less from them.

I take your point but (and this may just be sentimental me), sincerely feel that OOTP is not just "another business", but a sort of cultural (baseball) icon that I need to support. Call me nuts but it is a different relationship.

Having said that I don't expect others to see it that way.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by JackRules1

I pre-ordered the day OOTP12 was available. I'm nearly twice as old as Queensreich and still busting my butt to support my family. There are two games I have supported for years, OOTP and Civilization. When CIV-V came out I was mortified at the negative feedback on CivFanatics forum and I decided not to buy the game. Take2 really butchered a great game and if Markus butchers OOTP12 I won't buy future versions either. But from what I see, OOTP does things right, and I feel confident that my $30 will be $$$ well spent.

To anyone who is reading this thread and wondering if OOTP12 will be worth the investment, I can only say that in the humble opinion of someone who weighs the spending of his entertainment dollars very thoroughly, you will not regret making this purchase. I'm no fanboy; just someone who knows a good deal when he sees it. Enjoy!

yeah, I bought Civ V and totally regretted it. They really did butcher that game. The AI took enormous leaps backwards.

But with the OOTP series, I don't think there is any real way of "butchering" it. Unless Markus ever concedes to all the myriad demands of huge new features, without having to upgrade the AI for each new version.

Here's the thing. Markus shouldn't include more than one major feature, other than a whole slew of minor features. First of all, it takes quite a bit of development time to program one major facet of the game. Then he has to upgrade the AI to be able to cope with the change, which means adding various other new minor features as well. Then comes many many hours of testing that one new feature, in order to squash any bugs, and to make sure the new AI works.

Another reason for not including more than one (or two or three) new major features, is economical. IF it were possible to include the customizable playoffs, a revamped financial system, a completely brand new encyclopedia format, and all those other major requests, there wouldn't be much more for him to add, and the feature list will have to become more like EA. Adding no more than one or two new major features each year, ensures there will always be a new major feature to add for several subsequent years to come. And that means more sales.

[SMFXR01]

Originally Posted by RchW

My cable company gets more in one month than I've spent on OOTP since v5. I seem to get less and less from them.

I take your point but (and this may just be sentimental me), sincerely feel that OOTP is not just "another business", but a sort of cultural (baseball) icon that I need to support. Call me nuts but it is a different relationship.

Having said that I don't expect others to see it that way.

I have to agree......on all 3 points

Does that make me RchW's Fanboy?

(I hate that expression)

[jlredsox]

Originally Posted by RchW

My cable company gets more in one month than I've spent on OOTP since v5. I seem to get less and less from them.

I take your point but (and this may just be sentimental me), sincerely feel that OOTP is not just "another business", but a sort of cultural (baseball) icon that I need to support. Call me nuts but it is a different relationship.

Having said that I don't expect others to see it that way.

I agree 100% with this, especially the 2nd point. OOTP is like no other game I have played and I see my purchase as helping to continue my attachment(addiction) to this game.

[Stats_Enthusiast]

It's no surprise that when you have someone of Ceph's status (both on the forums and as a modder), say that he's not going to purchase the next iteration of the "greatest baseball game of all time", which he will still support via word of mouth, but not with dollars, that it would/does generate quite a debate.

In as much as this is a public forum and we are free to post what we want, here are my two cents...

First, in response to Ceph's statement - this is a clear indicator to Markus and Co. (I hope) that big some changes/additions are eminent. When someone (like Ceph) makes this kind of statement, it can be perceived in several different ways.

The way I perceive it is OOTP Developments needs to poll the community or something to this affect, so that perception of this great title isn't diluted to a Madden regurgitation year after year; a new front end and a marketing slogan of "Quicker. Faster. Deeper." (f*cking garbage EA, imho!) - what about the game you hosers!! Sorry, I digress...

NOTE: I want it to be clear that I'm NOT saying this is what OOTP has become, in fact, quite the opposite. But again, when statements like this come from someone like Ceph, (he's not some douche bag noob to the title thats whining because he can't figure out where to find free agents, and then threatens to go back to, ahem, the other title, because no one will reply to his post...)

When discussing what will truly propel a video game to that next level, especially one that is released year after year, the biggest decision a game designer has are what new features to add. I don`t think what Ceph is asking for to much. The slogan of this game is ``it`s your game, play it your way``.

Having said all that, I don`t follow the crowd, never have, never will. I`m in full support of people like Markus and Co. because he has revolutionized simulation baseball, he`s in contact with his customer base, and some of the best food I`ve ever eaten comes from Diner`s, Drive-in`s, and Dives!!

I`m very greatful to have a baseball title like this to purchase. I have purchased OOTP 12 (can`t wait as usual) and I will continue to support the OOTP franchise financially until it turns into a Madden type title... (ie: great marketing of a cheap, low-grade product.)

OOTP Devo. you guys do a great job. As disheartening as it may be to read this kind of thread (as valid as it is), keep up the great work and I look forward to OOTP 12, 13, 14, & 15... assuming I`m still alive.

[Simmo13]

Originally Posted by Queensryche

For the OOTP forums, yes it is.

Everyone on here is either one of the three.

If you're only using a 1-3 rating scale why not try stats only

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by fintach

I damn near did a spit take on this one. My wife and I are in the middle of re-watching B5 (literally, just passed the mid-point of Season 3).

I think The Great Luke Ski has other songs about Babylon 5

http://www.thegreatlukeski.com/lyrics/