SP/RP's using Feeders

[oman19]

I know I've seen people talk about this before but I don't think I ever saw an answer. Is there a way to deal with the high number of stud SP's that get 5 stars in the draft that only have 2 pitches.Also the lack of SP's with 3 pitches period. I've heard this is an issue when you use feeders and I'm running into it for sure. Any suggestions?

[kehowey]

I have also encountered an abundance of high quality 2-pitch starters being generated from feeder leagues and not enough high quality 3-or-more pitch starters. So I don't use feeders. I saw one post where the guy was deleting these 2-pitch studs before the draft. You could delete many of these studs and then create 3-pitch starters.

[Jaxxvain]

Originally Posted by kehowey

I have also encountered an abundance of high quality 2-pitch starters being generated from feeder leagues and not enough high quality 3-or-more pitch starters. So I don't use feeders. I saw one post where the guy was deleting these 2-pitch studs before the draft. You could delete many of these studs and then create 3-pitch starters.

of instead of deleting the guys, just give them a third pitch. Save a step.

[abbayarra]

Hello,
Is it possible to set up a stud 2 pitch guy to ever be an acceptable starter? Say you set him with a pull early tag if he is getting hit around and then set a pitch count so he will get pulled in the 6th inning? Could he give you a great 3 innings and then the 4th and 5th would be okay as he sees the opposing lineup a second time?

[ike121212]

Originally Posted by Jaxxvain

of instead of deleting the guys, just give them a third pitch. Save a step.

The quality of your SP's would go through the roof. If you do nothing, the bullpens are insane. You either delete them or pick your poison.

[Malleus Dei]

Eventually you may come to reach my conclusion: don't use feeder leagues at all, as the talent influx from them is too great.

[kehowey]

I would like to use feeders but don't. I don't use feeders because they provide an abundance of talent and too many 2-pitch studs.

[KBLover]

I have a HUGE feeder system in a league (600 teams) to try to see if it continues.

While I do have a lot of 2 pitch pitchers - there are good SP with multiple pitches.

Though, I think my scout is being an idiot. He's projecting so many 8/8/8/8/8 hitters...not bloody likely.

I haven't seen a great influx of talent...except for relievers. In my first league, good hitters from the draft are few and far between from the feeder leagues. In the huge feeder league, I don't know yet as my scout is probably being stupid. I'll have to up my amateur scouting budget for next draft.

P.S. I peaked at one 8/8/8/8/8 guy and the scout was WAY off. So, yeah, he's just being stupid at least in some cases.

[Biggio509]

Fist off SP is just a label. I think sometimes we get hung up on this. AI teams will have a lot of SPs in the low minors who will never start in the majors even if they make it. So the real issue is here is are there too many stud relievers, which are what these 2 pitch "starters" are and not enough good starters.

I am not sure. Modern baseball in reality has a lack of good starting pitching. You can blame it on a lot of things but IMO the reality is a good starter is a rarity and quality has declined with expansion because we have gone from 80 SP in the majors in 1960 to 150 SP in the majors today. Along with that baseball has less popularity in the US among kids and we have fewer prospects. I believe that is really due to expansion of sports now. We just to have football, baseball, and basketball. Today schools have everything from soccer to lacrosse to offer. Looking at ERAs and IP there is no doubt SP has declined over the years. It isn't just because of the juiced era either.

My gut feeling is the game is closer to realistic than we want to admit. You find SPs today pitching whole seasons with near or over 5.00 ERAs in the 1980's those guys would not be on the team. MLB average ERAs today are in the mid 4 range. Again an ERA that a guy would have sent back to the minors for back in the 80's. There are just simply a lot more good relievers out there, percentage wise, than good starters. It is frustrating but it is realistic.

Today, any decent SP in free agency ask for a boatload. Just look at how much the Randy Wolf wanted and he isn't elite. Even in a down economy when teams aren't spending as much he got 10 million a year. Look at Jason Marquis getting 7 million a year with a career ERA of 4.57 including a year over 6. Look at Jeff Suppan in 2006 16 million a year for a guy who in his 15 year career has only had an ERA under 4 3 times! No .250 hitting batter would make that. The free agent market shows there is very little starting pitching talent in the majors. The average stats show there is a lack of SP in the majors today as well.

I am not sure I like it but honestly it is realistic. Unless you are one of the top 3 or 4 payrolls or have a bunch of top prospects on the farm your 4 and 5 guys are going to be guys your fans think shouldn't be in AAA. That is today's reality.

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

Fist off SP is just a label. I think sometimes we get hung up on this. AI teams will have a lot of SPs in the low minors who will never start in the majors even if they make it. So the real issue is here is are there too many stud relievers, which are what these 2 pitch "starters" are and not enough good starters.

I am not sure. Modern baseball in reality has a lack of good starting pitching. You can blame it on a lot of things but IMO the reality is a good starter is a rarity and quality has declined with expansion because we have gone from 80 SP in the majors in 1960 to 150 SP in the majors today. Along with that baseball has less popularity in the US among kids and we have fewer prospects. I believe that is really due to expansion of sports now. We just to have football, baseball, and basketball. Today schools have everything from soccer to lacrosse to offer. Looking at ERAs and IP there is no doubt SP has declined over the years. It isn't just because of the juiced era either.

My gut feeling is the game is closer to realistic than we want to admit. You find SPs today pitching whole seasons with near or over 5.00 ERAs in the 1980's those guys would not be on the team. MLB average ERAs today are in the mid 4 range. Again an ERA that a guy would have sent back to the minors for back in the 80's. There are just simply a lot more good relievers out there, percentage wise, than good starters. It is frustrating but it is realistic.

Today, any decent SP in free agency ask for a boatload. Just look at how much the Randy Wolf wanted and he isn't elite. Even in a down economy when teams aren't spending as much he got 10 million a year. Look at Jason Marquis getting 7 million a year with a career ERA of 4.57 including a year over 6. Look at Jeff Suppan in 2006 16 million a year for a guy who in his 15 year career has only had an ERA under 4 3 times! No .250 hitting batter would make that. The free agent market shows there is very little starting pitching talent in the majors. The average stats show there is a lack of SP in the majors today as well.

I am not sure I like it but honestly it is realistic. Unless you are one of the top 3 or 4 payrolls or have a bunch of top prospects on the farm your 4 and 5 guys are going to be guys your fans think shouldn't be in AAA. That is today's reality.

Reading this made me think of something I've seen in my leagues at least:

-Initially, when the league is created, there's a LOT of good SP around. More than a few hit the FA market (for whatever reason - I don't understand it, but maybe the players refused to sign).

-The drafts, at least using feeders, seems to have too few SP. I know they aren't a dime a dozen, but sometimes all the SP (true SP, i.e. 3-pitches or more) are GONE from the pool by the 3rd round. I'm willing to bet in real life there's mediocre SP prospects that last deeper into the draft than that. I mean, are there less than 90 3-pitch pitchers in the MLB draft?

So, my issue isn't that there isn't enough good SP prospects in the draft, it's that there's not enough SP...PERIOD in the drafts. Since the game defines starter as 3 pitches or more - there should be more of these guys in the draft and the rest should be labelled as MR/CL. I mean, if scouts in the OOTP world are looking for pitchers with 3 pitches as SP, why label a 2-pitch guy as a SP prospect? I could see if there were some that WERE and it was because he felt they would have a shot at picking up 3rd/4th/more pitches - but otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to me. Something doesn't click with it in my mind.

If OOTP would spread out the "pitch points" of those 2 pitch guys into 3 or more pitches - I think it would solve the problem. A pitcher with "500 potential pitch points" is either a 2 pitch guy with 250 pot. in each, or a 4 pitch guy with an average of 125 pot. One is a stud reliever, one will need help from control and/or movement to be more than average.

I've "worked around" it a bit it seems with my huge feeder league universe. Seems the sheer number of players will make a good amount of 3-pitch SP (good or otherwise) out there in the pool. Perhaps if I add more rounds worth of players it would help, but then, my minors would probably fill insanely fast since I only have 3 levels.

Also, in real life, if there are a lot of 2-pitch pitchers, I bet they pick up a 3rd pitch (or more). It might not be a GOOD 3rd (or 4th or whatever) pitch so they aren't all that effective, but there's got to be a reason why there's not this huge group of 2-pitch starters in real life if real life prospects actually don't know 3+ pitches.

[oman19]

How big of a feeder system do you use?

I currently have 192 teams between 1 NCAA league and 3 HS leagues supporting a MLB style league with full minors. The Draft is 30 rounds.

I know according to the formula ootp provides in the manual this is enough to fill it. I just don't know if it is enough to fill it with the talent to provide an mlb style experience.

I started a league and am now 11 years into it and am really seeing a drop off on talent from the initial big bang creation of the league.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by KBLover

Reading this made me think of something I've seen in my leagues at least:

Since the game defines starter as 3 pitches or more - there should be more of these guys in the draft and the rest should be labelled as MR/CL.

The reason is the SP label is given when the AI puts someone in the rotation. This has nothing to do with scouts or where he might end up in the NL. Almost all 2 pitch pitchers will be have MR/CL scouting reports. The AI changes pitcher position when it places them. It does not do this with position players. A guy labeled 3B will still be 3B if the AI plays him at SS. Not so with pitchers. If the AI assigns a guy as closer his label is CL. If it assigns him as SP his label is SP. Labels are meaningless for pitchers in the draft. You have to look at the profile and scouting reports. A guy isn't going to be seen as closer or starter just because a bad college team put him in that role. Also note you may find some MR/CL types with decent stamina and 3 pitches. In the feeder leagues a 2 pitch pitcher can start. That means a stud future closer can push an average starter in the MLB out of the rotation.

I have no idea why OOTP does this for pitchers and not position players. You also have to be careful about SS. Many players get this label who have no business playing short, their arm is weak or they don't have the fielding stats. Even if he played 1B in college he will be listed as a SS in the draft if he was created that. Pitchers are the opposite. If he started in a feeder he is listed as SP but your scouting report might say back end reliever and you will see his suggested MLB role is MR or CL.

[Biggio509]

I have noticed this too in leagues. The initial draft does seem to have more talent than the league will have later on. I think maybe the balancing system is not WAD. Then again this depends on settings. Injuries and random talent change play a big role in player development.

The problem is I think you get about the same level of potential talent in subsequent drafts that you got of current talent in the initial draft. Random talent change and injuries will mean less talent in the Majors eventually. This doesn't happen initially because the guys are developed at start. Perhaps default settings help here.

That is a problem with OOTP too many options. You are never quite sure how changing a setting might affect balance. In OOTP 10 people had done the experiments to get the balance right with different settings but so far I am not sure it has been done with OOTP XI. Balancing is done for default settings raising injuries can mean the game is biased downward on talent since injuries is one way of preventing too much talent at the major league level. You change a setting and often you have to change another to counter the new imbalance and make the game WAD.

I am thinking of setting random talent change to 0 and see what happens. This doesn't mean all players will fully develop or injuries will not take their toll just talent is constant, barring injury, it is up to development factors to see if they reach their ceiling. Lowering random talent change might counterbalance the decrease in talent due to realistic injury settings I generally play with. It is worth a test. I might try it when I have some time. The only problem is I don't know how big of an issue random talent change is and just how bad my scouts are since I play with scouting.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

*snip*

I have no idea why OOTP does this for pitchers and not position players.

Probably because the position setting for pitchers plays an active roll in the number of pitches they can throw as well as their stamina recovery.

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by oman19

How big of a feeder system do you use?

I currently have 192 teams between 1 NCAA league and 3 HS leagues supporting a MLB style league with full minors. The Draft is 30 rounds.

I know according to the formula ootp provides in the manual this is enough to fill it. I just don't know if it is enough to fill it with the talent to provide an mlb style experience.

I started a league and am now 11 years into it and am really seeing a drop off on talent from the initial big bang creation of the league.

My feeder system is 200 college teams (2 lgs, 10 div each, 10 teams per div) and 400 Highschool teams (2 lgs, 20 div each, 10 teams per div). So 600 teams total. My draft is 15 rounds with enough players to fill I believe I have it at 18 rounds.

I also tinkered with the sabermetric player creation modifiers (since minor and feeder leagues don't have explicit player creation modifiers) and I'm not sure what, if anything, it really did, though.

My ML is 24 teams each with 3 minor league levels (A/AA/AAA).

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

I have no idea why OOTP does this for pitchers and not position players. You also have to be careful about SS. Many players get this label who have no business playing short, their arm is weak or they don't have the fielding stats. Even if he played 1B in college he will be listed as a SS in the draft if he was created that. Pitchers are the opposite. If he started in a feeder he is listed as SP but your scouting report might say back end reliever and you will see his suggested MLB role is MR or CL.

I've noticed that too. I was looking for CF in the draft and, yeah, there were "centerfielders" that had like 3 (out of 10) at CF and 7/8 in the corner OF positions.

Love that 10 rated 1B, 2 rated SS is listed as a SS.

Believe me, I've learned. I created a edited view that has pitch potentials + POT rating so I can find the REAL starting pitchers (I can count the pitches). And will probably do the same soon for position ratings and POT rating.

Originally Posted by Biggio509

I am thinking of setting random talent change to 0 and see what happens. This doesn't mean all players will fully develop or injuries will not take their toll just talent is constant, barring injury, it is up to development factors to see if they reach their ceiling. Lowering random talent change might counterbalance the decrease in talent due to realistic injury settings I generally play with. It is worth a test. I might try it when I have some time. The only problem is I don't know how big of an issue random talent change is and just how bad my scouts are since I play with scouting.

That sounds like an interesting idea. I use High (Modern Day) setting for injuries, so maybe that would be something I might want to consider.

[oman19]

Hey Biggio. I can't find the thread but a few weeks back you said you were going to do a test for talent level where you didn't use your feeders. How did that turn out?

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by oman19

Hey Biggio. I can't find the thread but a few weeks back you said you were going to do a test for talent level where you didn't use your feeders. How did that turn out?

Sorry. I ended up ditching the idea after reading from a beta tester feeders still give more depth. So it was an idea I didn't try long enough to really get good results. Ideally, I would like to run OOTP for about 100 years, game time on 2 computers and compare results between feeders and no feeders. The sim wouldn't take long but the analysis would be daunting to say the least.

[NomarHits400]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

Sorry. I ended up ditching the idea after reading from a beta tester feeders still give more depth. So it was an idea I didn't try long enough to really get good results. Ideally, I would like to run OOTP for about 100 years, game time on 2 computers and compare results between feeders and no feeders. The sim wouldn't take long but the analysis would be daunting to say the least.

One thing I have tried to help counteract this issue is to set roster size limits to ~16 for feeder teams (depending on preference) and set up the feeder teams with 5 man rotations. What this does is force the feeder teams to carry only 6 or 7 pitchers- 5 of which are starters and one closer. Over time that forces the parent league to use mediocre starters as MR's- and very few college MR's ever enter the draft as there are typically only one or two at most per team (instead of 4 or 5). It is also typically a good idea to increase starter endurance for these leagues as well so starters pitch deeper into games- which is typical for college and high school anyway for good starters.

The only issue I had with this set-up is, for whatever reason- I had to remember to go back and change the feeder league settings for endurance and number of SP's every offseason as the computer would automatically change it. However, doing this- try simming a few years and you will notice next to no stud MR's entering the draft at all- you will be drafting Sp's and closer's (as it should be)- and converting SP's that don't work out to the bullpen- as it should be....I just couldn't remember to adjust this setting every offseason- and still wonder if it's a bug or not. Hope this helps.

[kehowey]

Originally Posted by NomarHits400

One thing I have tried to help counteract this issue is to set roster size limits to ~16 for feeder teams (depending on preference) and set up the feeder teams with 5 man rotations. What this does is force the feeder teams to carry only 6 or 7 pitchers- 5 of which are starters and one closer. Over time that forces the parent league to use mediocre starters as MR's- and very few college MR's ever enter the draft as there are typically only one or two at most per team (instead of 4 or 5). It is also typically a good idea to increase starter endurance for these leagues as well so starters pitch deeper into games- which is typical for college and high school anyway for good starters.

The only issue I had with this set-up is, for whatever reason- I had to remember to go back and change the feeder league settings for endurance and number of SP's every offseason as the computer would automatically change it. However, doing this- try simming a few years and you will notice next to no stud MR's entering the draft at all- you will be drafting Sp's and closer's (as it should be)- and converting SP's that don't work out to the bullpen- as it should be....I just couldn't remember to adjust this setting every offseason- and still wonder if it's a bug or not. Hope this helps.

Interesting. I am going to try your method.