Yet another ump taken to task.

[Bobbuttons]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I can't wait to see what they have to say about the ump that just blew a call to prevent Galaragga from a perfect game. Routine groundout where he was out by about 1.5 steps and he somehow gets called safe. Shame

A 3-5 groundout is not necessarily routine, and he was only out by half a step, but it's inconceivable that you can call the runner safe if it's even close at first.

[RandyTiger]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I can't wait to see what they have to say about the ump that just blew a call to prevent Galaragga from a perfect game. Routine groundout where he was out by about 1.5 steps and he somehow gets called safe. Shame

This is exactly why there needs to be a review system at the end of the year, and the umps that don't do well need to be fired. West and Joyce amongst them, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm a mild-mannered guy, but Joyce just made my crap list for eternity with that blown call.

[crackpott]

Originally Posted by Vinny P.

I always thought the Jays would go the way of the Expos. Sorry, but Canadian cities just can't really support MLB teams.

Anyway, sorry for going off-track here!

To add onto ActionJackson's post... let's not be ridiculous here.

The media has speculated on this a few times this year because of the drop in attendance.

First off, it should be obvious to anyone that Toronto as a city can support baseball. When the team was winning, we set attendance records. If the city couldn't support baseball, this wouldn't happen.

To put things into perspective, Toronto hasn't made the playoffs in 15 years. 15 years of uselessness.

What other teams have been this futile?
Kansas City and Pittsburgh.

Guess which team has had by FAR the better attendance during this time? Yeah... that'd be the Jays. Despite Pittsburgh getting a new stadium.

But you know what? Let's take it further. I mean... if you suck for 10 years, what's another 5, right? The following teams haven't made the playoffs in a 10 year period since 1993 (last time the Jays did):

Tampa Bay: 1998-2007
Baltimore: 1998+
Texas: 2000-2009
Cincinnati: 1996+
Milwaukee: 1995-2007
Colorado: 1996-2006

From 1995 until last year, the Jays averaged a yearly attendance of 2,167,029.

It's a pain in the ass to calculate specifically, but out of the other teams, only Baltimore and Colorado have a better attendance record over that time.

This is in spite of new stadiums in Cincinnati and Milwaukee.

Milwaukee, in fact, can be used as a good example to show what happens when the fans believe you have a chance. After leaving for Miller Park, attendance shot up briefly, but quickly fell again the next year after people got used to the new stadium. By 2003, it was back down to 1.7 million. The last three years, they have around 3 million people. Why? Because they don't suck anymore.

The fact that despite at best finishing 4 games out of the wildcard, and usually significantly more than that, Toronto STILL never finished last in attendance, and prior to this year, when ownership announced we had no chance and were going to raise ticket prices regardless, never finished worse than 11th is a bit of a miracle. Finishing 6th in 2008 after 14 years of not seeing the playoffs should be a sign of how well the team CAN do in Toronto.

So sure... you can make a case that Toronto shouldn't have a team.

As long as Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Cincinnati, Miami, Oakland, Cleveland, and arguably Milwaukee, Minneapolis, and Washington lose their teams first.

Damn, people have no common sense...

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by RandyTiger

Didn't know the one in Ottawa didn't exist anymore - a friend spoke just a few months ago of it, he must have been mistaken.

The Ottawa Lynx left after the 2007 International League season and became the Lehigh Vally IronPigs. They were replaced in 2008 by the Ottawa Rapides of the independent Can-Am League, but only lasted that one season.

[RandyTiger]

Originally Posted by crackpott

To add onto ActionJackson's post... let's not be ridiculous here.

The media has speculated on this a few times this year because of the drop in attendance.

First off, it should be obvious to anyone that Toronto as a city can support baseball. When the team was winning, we set attendance records. If the city couldn't support baseball, this wouldn't happen.

To put things into perspective, Toronto hasn't made the playoffs in 15 years. 15 years of uselessness.

What other teams have been this futile?
Kansas City and Pittsburgh.

Guess which team has had by FAR the better attendance during this time? Yeah... that'd be the Jays. Despite Pittsburgh getting a new stadium.

But you know what? Let's take it further. I mean... if you suck for 10 years, what's another 5, right? The following teams haven't made the playoffs in a 10 year period since 1993 (last time the Jays did):

Tampa Bay: 1998-2007
Baltimore: 1998+
Texas: 2000-2009
Cincinnati: 1996+
Milwaukee: 1995-2007
Colorado: 1996-2006

From 1995 until last year, the Jays averaged a yearly attendance of 2,167,029.

It's a pain in the ass to calculate specifically, but out of the other teams, only Baltimore and Colorado have a better attendance record over that time.

This is in spite of new stadiums in Cincinnati and Milwaukee.

Milwaukee, in fact, can be used as a good example to show what happens when the fans believe you have a chance. After leaving for Miller Park, attendance shot up briefly, but quickly fell again the next year after people got used to the new stadium. By 2003, it was back down to 1.7 million. The last three years, they have around 3 million people. Why? Because they don't suck anymore.

The fact that despite at best finishing 4 games out of the wildcard, and usually significantly more than that, Toronto STILL never finished last in attendance, and prior to this year, when ownership announced we had no chance and were going to raise ticket prices regardless, never finished worse than 11th is a bit of a miracle. Finishing 6th in 2008 after 14 years of not seeing the playoffs should be a sign of how well the team CAN do in Toronto.

So sure... you can make a case that Toronto shouldn't have a team.

As long as Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Tampa Bay, Dallas, Cincinnati, Miami, Oakland, Cleveland, and arguably Milwaukee, Minneapolis, and Washington lose their teams first.

Damn, people have no common sense...

Very well thought out post, dude.

[RandyTiger]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The Ottawa Lynx left after the 2007 International League season and became the Lehigh Vally IronPigs. They were replaced in 2008 by the Ottawa Rapides of the independent Can-Am League, but only lasted that one season.

It's a real shame they didn't last.

[actionjackson]

Missed it by that much...That is awful. The Tigers are kinda getting ganged up on by the umps right now. Either that or umpiring just plain stinks league wide.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by crackpott

It's a pain in the ass to calculate specifically, but out of the other teams, only Baltimore and Colorado have a better attendance record over that time.

See chart below for the full picture.

1995-2008

Per Game Average Attendance

NYA     41,640
LAN     40,946
SLN     38,057
COL     36,732
BAL     36,246
SEA     35,026
ATL     34,945
CHN     34,548
CLE     33,647
ARI     33,467
SFN     32,967
BOS     32,611
NYN     32,464
ANA     32,327
HOU     32,176
TEX     31,183
SDN     29,461
PHI     27,845
TOR     27,202
CIN     25,257
MIL     24,909
CHA     24,514
DET     24,172
OAK     21,557
MIN     21,100
PIT     20,808
KCA     18,761
FLO     18,691
TBA     17,915
MON/WAS 17,291
--------------
MLB     29,337

[MorseMoose]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Tigers are kinda getting ganged up on by the umps right now.

I'm okay with that...except today's B.S. call.

[RandyTiger]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Missed it by that much...That is awful. The Tigers are kinda getting ganged up on by the umps right now. Either that or umpiring just plain stinks league wide.

It's league-wide, and there really needs to a review of umpires at the end of each season. The technology exists to gauge how effective umpires are at their jobs, and they need to be held accountable for their actions. Ballplayers and managers are. Umpires need to be as well.

[actionjackson]

I'm very aware that any media entities (excluding the MLB Network; let's face it the broadcasters drive the MLB bus) that broadcast MLB would love to see the Jays relocate to an American city. Then they could finally pay attention to all thirty major league teams. They pay no attention to the Jays because they can't get any revenue off the broadcasts and money talks baby. I understand to a certain extent, but sometimes it seems like MLB has 29 teams in it. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive about it but there have been times since the championship teams where this team's been worth talking about or broadcasting but not a peep and without attention the casual American baseball fan isn't going to know anything about these guys.

[crackpott]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I'm very aware that any media entities (excluding the MLB Network; let's face it the broadcasters drive the MLB bus) that broadcast MLB would love to see the Jays relocate to an American city. Then they could finally pay attention to all thirty major league teams. They pay no attention to the Jays because they can't get any revenue off the broadcasts and money talks baby. I understand to a certain extent, but sometimes it seems like MLB has 29 teams in it. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive about it but there have been times since the championship teams where this team's been worth talking about or broadcasting but not a peep and without attention the casual American baseball fan isn't going to know anything about these guys.

Look back to last year where Phillies fans on the board were debating if Halladay was worth the prospects the Jays were asking. Some were even saying Cliff Lee is just as good. Wonder how they feel about Roy now...

[low]

I love the irony of this thread.

I mean, a Tiger's fan posting about bad umpiring and then a few short hours later his team gets royally screwed.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Missed it by that much...That is awful. The Tigers are kinda getting ganged up on by the umps right now. Either that or umpiring just plain stinks league wide.

Starting to wonder if officiating in incompetent in every sport en masse. The NBA, NHL, now the MLB is getting dumber by the day. What's going on?

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

See chart below for the full picture.

1995-2008

Per Game Average Attendance

NYA     41,640
LAN     40,946
SLN     38,057
COL     36,732
BAL     36,246
SEA     35,026
ATL     34,945
CHN     34,548
CLE     33,647
ARI     33,467
SFN     32,967
BOS     32,611
NYN     32,464
ANA     32,327
HOU     32,176
TEX     31,183
SDN     29,461
PHI     27,845
TOR     27,202
CIN     25,257
MIL     24,909
CHA     24,514
DET     24,172
OAK     21,557
MIN     21,100
PIT     20,808
KCA     18,761
FLO     18,691
TBA     17,915
MON/WAS 17,291
--------------
MLB     29,337

Good thing we moved Montreal to get better attendance figures.....oh wait...

Originally Posted by crackpott

Look back to last year where Phillies fans on the board were debating if Halladay was worth the prospects the Jays were asking. Some were even saying Cliff Lee is just as good. Wonder how they feel about Roy now...

They'd say they were always in support of making such a deal and will forget that they were just fine with Cliff (who?!) Lee instead.

[RandyTiger]

Well, whatta know. Jim Joyce admits he blew the call that cost Galarraga his perfect game. It's nice to see an ump that'll 'fess up to a mistake - and he'll be a lot harder on himself than anyone else could possibly be.

Far as I'm concerned, he's okay and a classy guy.

And what Leyland did, going to talk with him, is even classier.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by RandyTiger

Well, whatta know. Jim Joyce admits he blew the call that cost Galarraga his perfect game. It's nice to see an ump that'll 'fess up to a mistake - and he'll be a lot harder on himself than anyone else could possibly be.

Far as I'm concerned, he's okay and a classy guy.

And what Leyland did, going to talk with him, is even classier.

Yeah I don't think this call, bad as it was, is the same as what we have been discussing recently where umpires put themselves into a game by creating a problem and then running players and managers for protesting.

If that call happens in the 1st inning it might provoke a short argument but the context of a perfect game made it infamous.

[Sdpm100]

There must be something that makes people want to officiate in sports, but I can't understand what. Get moaned at by one side of the teams/players pretty much every moment of every game, and then make one big wrong decision out of 1,000 and that gets you bile for the rest of your life and probably after you're dead. I don't understand it. That and owning teams is the other - especially as it usually turns you from a multi-millionaire into one with only seven figures.

[Left-handed Badger]

We did get rid of a lot with the umpire strike. We need another one of those.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Sorry but I must also go off-track to respond to this jingoistic nonsense. The Jays haven't gone the way of the Expos. They are in a downturn at the moment yes, but to haul out the example of the Expos is a bit much and you're only doing it because of the fact that the two franchises have played in the same country, outside of America. I didn't expect to hear this kind of crap from you Vinny: you're usually very astute. Of course Toronto can support baseball. Is it a surprise that fans are turned off by the fact that their team is in a division with two behemoths and a franchise that finished just about dead last in the division ten years straight and are now brimming with prospects?

In my opinion we're just now catching up to the rest of the division since hiring Alex Anthopoulos and his 47,000 scouts/advisors. I challenge anyone to find a division where all the teams have GMs as good as Cashman, Epstein, Friedman, McPhail and now AA. You can't because there isn't one. The organization is either at rock bottom or close to it now and I think over the next 2-3 years we'll see them getting back on the upswing by making sound baseball decisions and not spending money like drunken sailors and then flushing said money down the toilet.

When you improve the decision making process, better transactions are made and the results start to come, maybe not right away, but they will come and when they do the fans will come back. They've got nine picks in the first three rounds this year and the message has gotten through to the upper level muckety mucks that upping the spending drastically on the amateur side, while avoiding free agents for now until the Front Office feels they're one or two pieces away is the only way to compete in this division. The last two regimes have been somewhat split personalityish. One move to contend, the next two to rebuild, the next two to contend and so on, but this one seems to have a plan so far. The word "plan" may have been used previously, but I didn't see any semblance of one, whereas this regime definitely has one.

Back to the Expos: where's the parallel for what happened in 1994-1995? They were the best team in baseball in 1994, the lockout happened and the sell-off began. Even then they still lasted another 10 years in Montreal and they never had the stable type of making money hand over fist in other areas corporate ownership to back them up, so I think you're getting waaayyy ahead of yourself. Their ownership was constantly changing hands and they couldn't get an acceptable downtown stadium. Their demise was a confluence of ridiculously bad luck/timing and the fans felt justifiably angry with MLB and it showed in the empty echoes that reverberated around the Big Owe in its sad final days.

The Jays screwed themselves over this year by calling it a "building" year and then jacking up the ticket prices. Paul Beeston was reacting to the amount of giveaways and near giveaways to pad attendance that happened under the previous regime and demonstrating that that wasn't going to happen on his watch. He probably went too far and the fans reacted and unfortunately have not returned despite an entertaining start to the season. It's possible they're making more money this year, despite the low attendance, because of the price adjustment. Let's wait and see what happens in the summer before we decide this is a complete write-off OK? Better yet, let's see where things are by 2013 or 2014 before we go relocating the franchise back to America where you seem to be implying it belongs.

And as an American Blue Jay fan (Royals too, but they dont pertain here) we also had to deal with many years of the madness that was J.P. Ricciardi. Note: And we can use the excuse that everyone is still out celebrated that firing.

[Left-handed Badger]

Originally Posted by crackpott

Look back to last year where Phillies fans on the board were debating if Halladay was worth the prospects the Jays were asking. Some were even saying Cliff Lee is just as good. Wonder how they feel about Roy now...

Well, I still think the Jays were asking for too much. (I though they should get 4 of the Top 10 in the Phillie system, and probably 3 of the top 5, just not 1,2,3,and 4) But, yeah, Halladay and Lee arent in the sam class. Halladay is in the absolute top tier.