Arbitration Awards

[BlitzburghBucco]

Will arbitration this year work as it does in the real world, i.e. based on stats and not things like ratings or popularity?

[Buane]

Player popularity affecting arbitration rewards is one of the most ridiculous bugs in the game and it's laughable if it isn't going to be fixed in OOTP11.

[BlitzburghBucco]

Also, player popularity affecting free agent demands that are ridiculous. Will this be fixed? Such as guys who are say, popular, but are basically AAAA players demanding multi-million dollar contracts.

[Jontler]

Originally Posted by BlitzburghBucco

Also, player popularity affecting free agent demands that are ridiculous. Will this be fixed? Such as guys who are say, popular, but are basically AAAA players demanding multi-million dollar contracts.

The fact that these guys are popular in the first place is representative of just how broken the popularity system is. Having it tied in with contract demands and arbitration rewards just spreads the bugginess to as many parts of the game as possible.

[TGH-Adfabre]

Originally Posted by Jontler

The fact that these guys are popular in the first place is representative of just how broken the popularity system is. Having it tied in with contract demands and arbitration rewards just spreads the bugginess to as many parts of the game as possible.

It's a one-year, $3.25 million contract -- very reasonable for a player with remaining upside as a hitter, particularly considering Ankiel was originally seeking a deal matching or exceeding the three years and $15 million the Cubs gave Marlon Byrd.

From here
Rick Ankiel makes the Royals better in 2010, but what about after he's gone? | Mellinger's Blog on the Royals and Baseball

Like this?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Buane

Player popularity affecting arbitration rewards is one of the most ridiculous bugs in the game and it's laughable if it isn't going to be fixed in OOTP11.

Popularity does NOT affect arbitration demands in OOTP 10 either.

Popularity is based on stats & ratings, which is the base for arbitration numbers too (although in a different way of course).

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Jontler

The fact that these guys are popular in the first place is representative of just how broken the popularity system is.

I disagree. Popularity should be based on stats & talent & past performance. The system is tweaked a bit in OOTP 11, but the basics are similar, and they work as intended.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I disagree. Popularity should be based on stats & talent & past performance.

Don't forget charm and good looks!

[Buane]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Popularity does NOT affect arbitration demands in OOTP 10 either.

Popularity is based on stats & ratings, which is the base for arbitration numbers too (although in a different way of course).

You probably need to test this then, because in my experience it absolutely is.

Here are some recent examples from my online league:

6.5 million for a 5.02 ERA in 66.1 IP - Well Known/Well Known

3.3 million for a 5.57 ERA in 74.1 IP - Fair/Fair

4 million LAST year for a 7.15 ERA, 4.19 THIS year for a 4.35 - Popular/Popular

5.5 million for a damn 6.26 ERA - Extreme/Extreme

These are just a few incidents off the top of my head, and only the extreme end of the spectrum. This happens all the time. In fact, go try and sign that replacement-level Free Agent who's (for whatever reason) Very Popular - he'll be demanding 4 million when he should be willing to sign a MLC. The same principle apparently carries over to arbitration, where the game does not allow popular players to get low contracts. If you don't believe this should be happening, then you need to need to re-check the code.

Unknown/Unknown Shortstop: .315/.380/.422 = 2.14 Million in Arbitration
Well Known/Well Known Shortstop: .263/.333/.428 = 4.6 Million in Arbitration (previous season)

Unknown/Unknown Reliever: 2.97 ERA in 60.2 IP = 630k in Arbitration
Extreme/Extreme Reliever: 3.44 ERA in 89 IP = 5.0 Million in Arbitration

Insignificant/Insignificant SP: 3.59 ERA in 213.1 IP = 3.7 Million in Arbitration
Popular/Well Known SP: 5.45 ERA in 66 IP = 4.1 Million in Arbitration


Looking at these numbers, it cannot be argued that arbitration is working correctly. Something needs to be fixed.

edit: but thanks for responding

[Jontler]

Originally Posted by BlitzburghBucco

Also, player popularity affecting free agent demands that are ridiculous. Will this be fixed? Such as guys who are say, popular, but are basically AAAA players demanding multi-million dollar contracts.

Originally Posted by Jontler

The fact that these guys are popular in the first place is representative of just how broken the popularity system is. Having it tied in with contract demands and arbitration rewards just spreads the bugginess to as many parts of the game as possible.

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I disagree. Popularity should be based on stats & talent & past performance. The system is tweaked a bit in OOTP 11, but the basics are similar, and they work as intended.

Am I to understand it is the intent of the game to make AAAA players popular? Are players with AAAA ratings, who put up AAAA statistics, supposed to be popular? Is it reasonable to assume such players would be popular in real life?

I'm having trouble understanding how this could be working as intended.

[Sparrow]

I don't know about the arbitration, but I do think it's appropriate for AAAA players to be popular.

I think fans tend to fall in love with the AAA video game numbers and clamor for their promotion. As a Giants fan, I have seen many players have success in AAA and flounder in the pros. Every year fan support and optimism jumps on the new offensive minded AAA guy, and every year, we learn that a couple more can't hack it in the pros.

Last year Jesus Guzman was the answer. I think at the end of the year he went unclaimed on waivers. Oh, and Bowker is going to have a big year this year!

[Jontler]

So how are they doing for popularity now?

The AAAA guys that Blitz is talking about aren't Popular one day and gone the next, and it's not just local popularity. They carry their newfound national popularity into the free agent market, where it sparks their inflated demands.

[Aytumious]

Originally Posted by Buane

You probably need to test this then, because in my experience it absolutely is.

Here are some recent examples from my online league:

6.5 million for a 5.02 ERA in 66.1 IP - Well Known/Well Known

3.3 million for a 5.57 ERA in 74.1 IP - Fair/Fair

4 million LAST year for a 7.15 ERA, 4.19 THIS year for a 4.35 - Popular/Popular

5.5 million for a damn 6.26 ERA - Extreme/Extreme

These are just a few incidents off the top of my head, and only the extreme end of the spectrum. This happens all the time. In fact, go try and sign that replacement-level Free Agent who's (for whatever reason) Very Popular - he'll be demanding 4 million when he should be willing to sign a MLC. The same principle apparently carries over to arbitration, where the game does not allow popular players to get low contracts. If you don't believe this should be happening, then you need to need to re-check the code.

Unknown/Unknown Shortstop: .315/.380/.422 = 2.14 Million in Arbitration
Well Known/Well Known Shortstop: .263/.333/.428 = 4.6 Million in Arbitration (previous season)

Unknown/Unknown Reliever: 2.97 ERA in 60.2 IP = 630k in Arbitration
Extreme/Extreme Reliever: 3.44 ERA in 89 IP = 5.0 Million in Arbitration

Insignificant/Insignificant SP: 3.59 ERA in 213.1 IP = 3.7 Million in Arbitration
Popular/Well Known SP: 5.45 ERA in 66 IP = 4.1 Million in Arbitration


Looking at these numbers, it cannot be argued that arbitration is working correctly. Something needs to be fixed.

edit: but thanks for responding

What year of arby were these players in? How much had they been awarded previously?

Corey Hart has been awful since the All-Star game in 2008. He made the team, then fell off the planet. Despite his terrible second half, he was awarded 3.25M in his first arbitration year after his 2008 season. He had a very good season in 2007 as well, which factored into his initial arby number. This past year he was still in his post All-Star form and got a raise from 3.25M to 4.8M. He still has another year left and will be a raise even if he continues to play badly.

In other words, it's all relative.

[Buane]

Originally Posted by Aytumious

What year of arby were these players in? How much had they been awarded previously?

Most of the examples are in their first year of arbitration, but given the stark differences in their performance/reward that really isn't what I'm trying to say. The guys I'm talking about getting big paydays aren't guys who were good and had a down year, they're guys who are just plain bad but they're highly popular for whatever reason. I only pulled a few examples for brevity's sake, but this happens every season especially on a smaller scale and its always player popularity that is the common thread. The game simply prevents popular players from making small amounts money.

Presumably, this was programmed in to prevent teams from being able to sign popular players to minor league contracts or major league minimums and reaping the Fan Interest boost. I think that speaks more to the broken popularity system more than anything, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.


And finally, as an aside regarding your Corey Hart point - All things being equal, I'm not sure if the best practice for OOTP is to try and emulate systems that are already broken and nonsensical. I don't see anything wrong with trying to build a virtual baseball world that functions better than the real one.

[Jontler]

Originally Posted by Aytumious

What year of arby were these players in? How much had they been awarded previously?

The linked report page for each player shows their complete contract history. The RSL uses 2/5 free agency (2 years at league minimum, 3 years arbitration - 5 years service time total before players head to free agency).

If I got that wrong at all I'm sure Buane will correct me.

edit: whoops snooze you lose

[Subzero]

This is a very annoying 'feature'. This feature along with the one where when you go to sign a player who is arbitration eligible, it is like trying to sign another player as his estimated arby salary is already counted instead of being cleared when you go to try to work out a deal with the player.

[megamanmatt]

My only issue with popularity is there are too many nationally popular players and too few who are only popular locally. I mean most players who play for their teams should be some-what popular locally unless they do something stupid or play badly. For instance there were players on the Twins in 2002 who were just as popular locally as those who will be on the 2010 squad. However there was no Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, or Denard Span yet. Micheal Cuddyer was in his first or second season. Does that mean because few to none of our players were popular nationally that they didn't draw fans or have local popularity? Actually because they were mostly from within our farm system they were extremely popular on a local level.

I guess I'm just trying to say too much emphesis is put on "Nationally popular" players in ootp, when in reality local popularity is usually a far greater driving force.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

I guess I'm just trying to say too much emphesis is put on "Nationally popular" players in ootp, when in reality local popularity is usually a far greater driving force.

I agree. This bothers me as well.

[BlitzburghBucco]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Popularity does NOT affect arbitration demands in OOTP 10 either.

With all due respect, how is this remotely true? Two guys with near identical ratings and stats, if one is more popular than the other, will always get a higher arbitration reward.

[tehwholeworld]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Popularity is based on stats & ratings, which is the base for arbitration numbers too (although in a different way of course).

Why are ratings factored into the arbitration numbers at all? Isn't arbitration supposed to be based on player performance and not "potential"?