What's More Important - Pitching or Offense?

boblight24 · 12-24-2009, 01:20 PM

Happy Holidays to all!

Here's a question....I am running a ficitional league with modern settings (2009) and things are going very well. I am on the outside of the playoff picture at the moment, but I have built up a very nice farm system and will hopefully be in contention over the next few seasons. My question is for those who have played this wonderful game for years what do you consider to be the most important factor in building a champion, pitching or offense?

kcroyalgm · 12-24-2009, 01:42 PM

#1: the best rotation you can get.
#2: the best rotation you can get

koohead · 12-24-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcroyalgm

#1: the best rotation you can get.
#2: the best rotation you can get

Agreed. my fictional team is around 3-7th in offensive catagories but 1st or 2nd in all pitching catagories and I have the best record in baseball on 9/1 by 5 games. Always pitching first.

TNCubsFan · 12-24-2009, 02:04 PM

As a pitching and defense guy, I tend to lean toward pitching. However it also depends on my park and what is available.

If a guy who can post a 3.50 in a pitchers park w/ a 46% G/F ratio wants 23 mil over six years, and I am playing in the equivalent of Great American Ballpark,(cincy), then I will pass because I dont see the investment as worthwhile. I will go spend 6 mil over three for a journey man pitcher who is 65+ G/F ratio and spend 10 mil each in the SS and 2B for guys that can catch and turn two better than any combo in history. Then go and find platoons or studs that can hit, hit, and then hit some more.

Look at your park and what you have to work with. That will tell you what you need to do to be successful.

White Sox · 12-24-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

#1: the best rotation you can get.
#2: the best rotation you can get

Seconded. I'm currently first in my league in team ERA, starting ERA, and bullpen ERA, and either second through fifth in most other pitching categories...but I'm either dead last or second to last in most offensive categories, except I'm second in home runs and third in stolen bases. Indeed, I pretty much live and die by the homer. It's almost comical.

I'm currently holding onto a small division lead over a team that ranks first in virtually all offensive categories but ranks only in the middle of the pack in pitching, and I've done a pretty good job against them head-to-head this season. All of this adds up to tell me that I'm hanging onto first place because my superior pitching tops their superior lineup.

BMW · 12-24-2009, 02:23 PM

Once it comes down to the actual games, you have to score more runs than your opponent. So you have to give up less runs than you score (and conversely score more than you give up).

So you can win games by having a competent offense and a juggernaut pitching/defense, or competent pitching/defense and a juggernaut offense.

The cliche is that pitching is more important. It isn't when you play the games - it's a zero sum game, any success by the offense is a failure by the pitching/defense and vice versa.

However, it is true that obtaining good pitching is more difficult than getting good hitting.

This is for two reasons:

Reason One
Starting pitchers get a larger percentage of time affecting the outcome of a game than the offense (discarding the defensive aspect).

CC Sabathia accounted for almost 16% of the Yankees innings in 2009, while Derek Jeter accounted for barely 11% of the Yankees plate appearances in 2009. Go back in time and that 11% for a top batter will stay the same while 16% for the pitcher just grows. (1961s Yankees - Bobby Richardson 11%, Whitey Ford - 19%)

So even though a starting pitcher is playing once every 4 or 5 days, since he's delivering every pitch while he's in the game where as a batter is appearing 1 out of every 9 batters while he's in the game.

Over the course of the season, that means that a top starter pitches more than a batter hits.

Reason Two
Pitchers are much more volatile than hitters. OOTP 10 reflects this. They are harder to project from teenagers to major leaguers. Even when they get to the major league level, injuries can really send them into an unrecoverable death spiral when you least expect it.

Guys that you count on as good starters at 30 years old can be also-rans by 33, which kills you if you were the dope that gave them the seven year contract.

I prefer to develop pitchers (to mitigate against giving albatross-like long-term contracts) and sign batters via free agency.

TribeFanInNC · 12-24-2009, 02:28 PM

I'd say good pitching, good hitting, and good fielding are most important...

I'm not sure one is more important than the other. I've won with teams that scored 1000 runs. I've won with the best pitching. A lot of it depends on the dynamics of your league. Really, I think you need to be great at one of them and generally above average at the other. But I don't think one is more important than the other.

my two cents...

boblight24 · 12-24-2009, 02:37 PM

It seems to me that a batter with a 15 Contact and 18 Power will get his .300 average and his 30+ HRs every season, but a pitcher with 10/10/10 will get crushed more often than not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see it that pitching ratings are far more crucial than batting ones.

boblight24 · 12-24-2009, 03:03 PM

Now that I'm on this ratings kick, I have a weak starting 5 and a lights out closer and I've been toying with the idea of changing things up a little. My closer is a 20/20/18 guy, but he only has an 8 stamina. Should I move him into the rotation or leave him as my closer. I say closer with a giggle, because I am rarely in a position to use him as my pitching is terrible and I'm usually losing going into the 9th.

pbar25 · 12-24-2009, 03:20 PM

1.Good Defense
4.Good Pitching
10.Good Offense

Can't have good pitching without a good defense -- because then the pitching won't be good.

No reason to even care about offense if you don't have good pitching.

Good Defense, just like in every sport or war is the best thing to start with.

If you score, you might win. If they never score, you will never lose.

Some great pitchers will not help much over the long haul if you have butchers playing at SS, C, 2B, 3B, & CF.

damientheomen3 · 12-24-2009, 03:47 PM

in my main league I have won 100+ games in 8 straight seasons thanks to a killer rotation and bullpen and good defense. I had just 1 guy go over 20 homers in each of those seasons.

BMW · 12-24-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbar25

If you score, you might win. If they never score, you will never lose.

That's a craftily orchestrated statement, especially since never is a pretty powerful absolute.

"If you always score more than you're opponent you'll always win. If they never score, you will never lose."

I think the strategy of throwing 162 shutouts in a season was thrown out as a viable strategy a long time ago. I think the Mets tried that last year, along with every other team in baseball.

TGH-Adfabre · 12-24-2009, 04:46 PM

1) Pitching
2) Offense
3) Defense

I always want 2-3 Cy Young canidates on my staff. I only care a little if I have an MVP canidate in the field.

Cornelius McGillicuddy · 12-24-2009, 05:17 PM

I've heard for as long as I can remember - Pitching is nine tenths of the game. Never found anything to disprove it.

edddgar · 12-24-2009, 05:26 PM

I really don't try for a good offense or good pitching, I just take the best talent I can get for the best price. I always put together an awesome defense just because that's typically easily found and cheaper than an ace or a big hitter and it allows you to pick up cheap pitchers and still allow them to be effective. The two things I keep in mind is that pitching and defense are two separate entities and that a run saved is equal to a run scored.

boblight24 · 12-24-2009, 05:46 PM

Well it is overwhelmingly apparent that the community thinks that pitching is more important. Now, which attribute of a pitcher is the most important: the GB/FB ratio, Stuff, Control, or Movement?

TNCubsFan · 12-24-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boblight24

Well it is overwhelmingly apparent that the community thinks that pitching is more important. Now, which attribute of a pitcher is the most important: the GF/FB ratio, Stuff, Control, or Movement?

Once again it goes to who is playing defense, and where I am playing half my games. In a small park GB/FB are important to me. If I am playing in a really big park then Control, Stuff, Movement. If I have Jeff Kent clones in the middle then I want FB pitchers. If I have gold gloves in the middle I want extreme GB pitchers.

In the end assessment it is park factors that point me into what I want first, then finding the right people to play to the strenghts of the park.

boblight24 · 12-24-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNCubsFan

Once again it goes to who is playing defense, and where I am playing half my games. In a small park GB/FB are important to me. If I am playing in a really big park then Control, Stuff, Movement. If I have Jeff Kent clones in the middle then I want FB pitchers. If I have gold gloves in the middle I want extreme GB pitchers.

In the end assessment it is park factors that point me into what I want first, then finding the right people to play to the strenghts of the park.

This is great it's like I'm talking to Tim Kurkjian or Peter Gammons!

TribeFanInNC · 12-24-2009, 06:58 PM

I tend to like high GB%, good control, and high velocity in that order. But it's really about the stats, not the ratings.

Daern · 12-24-2009, 07:05 PM

I've won championships with balanced teams, all-pitching/defense teams, and Harvey's-Wallbangers-style teams. Of them all, I prefer the defensive/pitching, merely because I find them easier to build and succeed with.

GB%m definitely, especially with a nice IF.

12-24-2009, 02:04 PM	#4
TNCubsFan Major Leagues Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 300	As a pitching and defense guy, I tend to lean toward pitching. However it also depends on my park and what is available. If a guy who can post a 3.50 in a pitchers park w/ a 46% G/F ratio wants 23 mil over six years, and I am playing in the equivalent of Great American Ballpark,(cincy), then I will pass because I dont see the investment as worthwhile. I will go spend 6 mil over three for a journey man pitcher who is 65+ G/F ratio and spend 10 mil each in the SS and 2B for guys that can catch and turn two better than any combo in history. Then go and find platoons or studs that can hit, hit, and then hit some more. Look at your park and what you have to work with. That will tell you what you need to do to be successful. __________________ "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out" George Brett HOF

12-24-2009, 02:37 PM	#8
boblight24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beyond Is Where I Roam Posts: 554 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	It seems to me that a batter with a 15 Contact and 18 Power will get his .300 average and his 30+ HRs every season, but a pitcher with 10/10/10 will get crushed more often than not. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see it that pitching ratings are far more crucial than batting ones. __________________ "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda "Good is not good enough, when better is expected." ~Vin Scully

12-24-2009, 03:03 PM	#9
boblight24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beyond Is Where I Roam Posts: 554 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Now that I'm on this ratings kick, I have a weak starting 5 and a lights out closer and I've been toying with the idea of changing things up a little. My closer is a 20/20/18 guy, but he only has an 8 stamina. Should I move him into the rotation or leave him as my closer. I say closer with a giggle, because I am rarely in a position to use him as my pitching is terrible and I'm usually losing going into the 9th. __________________ "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda "Good is not good enough, when better is expected." ~Vin Scully

12-24-2009, 03:20 PM	#10
pbar25 Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 343	1.Good Defense 4.Good Pitching 10.Good Offense Can't have good pitching without a good defense -- because then the pitching won't be good. No reason to even care about offense if you don't have good pitching. Good Defense, just like in every sport or war is the best thing to start with. If you score, you might win. If they never score, you will never lose. Some great pitchers will not help much over the long haul if you have butchers playing at SS, C, 2B, 3B, & CF. __________________ New York Mets - Asahi2 Baseball

12-24-2009, 04:46 PM	#13
TGH-Adfabre Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2,601	1) Pitching 2) Offense 3) Defense I always want 2-3 Cy Young canidates on my staff. I only care a little if I have an MVP canidate in the field. __________________ You mock me, therefore I am My wife

12-24-2009, 01:20 PM	#1
boblight24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beyond Is Where I Roam Posts: 554 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	What's More Important - Pitching or Offense? Happy Holidays to all! Here's a question....I am running a ficitional league with modern settings (2009) and things are going very well. I am on the outside of the playoff picture at the moment, but I have built up a very nice farm system and will hopefully be in contention over the next few seasons. My question is for those who have played this wonderful game for years what do you consider to be the most important factor in building a champion, pitching or offense? __________________ "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda "Good is not good enough, when better is expected." ~Vin Scully

12-24-2009, 01:42 PM	#2
kcroyalgm All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 645	#1: the best rotation you can get. #2: the best rotation you can get __________________ Up Kerry! 39 Time All-Ireland Senior Football Champions

12-24-2009, 02:23 PM	#6
BMW Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,030	Once it comes down to the actual games, you have to score more runs than your opponent. So you have to give up less runs than you score (and conversely score more than you give up). So you can win games by having a competent offense and a juggernaut pitching/defense, or competent pitching/defense and a juggernaut offense. The cliche is that pitching is more important. It isn't when you play the games - it's a zero sum game, any success by the offense is a failure by the pitching/defense and vice versa. However, it is true that obtaining good pitching is more difficult than getting good hitting. This is for two reasons: Reason One Starting pitchers get a larger percentage of time affecting the outcome of a game than the offense (discarding the defensive aspect). CC Sabathia accounted for almost 16% of the Yankees innings in 2009, while Derek Jeter accounted for barely 11% of the Yankees plate appearances in 2009. Go back in time and that 11% for a top batter will stay the same while 16% for the pitcher just grows. (1961s Yankees - Bobby Richardson 11%, Whitey Ford - 19%) So even though a starting pitcher is playing once every 4 or 5 days, since he's delivering every pitch while he's in the game where as a batter is appearing 1 out of every 9 batters while he's in the game. Over the course of the season, that means that a top starter pitches more than a batter hits. Reason Two Pitchers are much more volatile than hitters. OOTP 10 reflects this. They are harder to project from teenagers to major leaguers. Even when they get to the major league level, injuries can really send them into an unrecoverable death spiral when you least expect it. Guys that you count on as good starters at 30 years old can be also-rans by 33, which kills you if you were the dope that gave them the seven year contract. I prefer to develop pitchers (to mitigate against giving albatross-like long-term contracts) and sign batters via free agency.

12-24-2009, 02:28 PM	#7
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	I'd say good pitching, good hitting, and good fielding are most important... I'm not sure one is more important than the other. I've won with teams that scored 1000 runs. I've won with the best pitching. A lot of it depends on the dynamics of your league. Really, I think you need to be great at one of them and generally above average at the other. But I don't think one is more important than the other. my two cents...

12-24-2009, 05:17 PM	#14
Cornelius McGillicuddy Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Playing the inside game Posts: 763 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	I've heard for as long as I can remember - Pitching is nine tenths of the game. Never found anything to disprove it.

12-24-2009, 05:26 PM	#15
edddgar Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	I really don't try for a good offense or good pitching, I just take the best talent I can get for the best price. I always put together an awesome defense just because that's typically easily found and cheaper than an ace or a big hitter and it allows you to pick up cheap pitchers and still allow them to be effective. The two things I keep in mind is that pitching and defense are two separate entities and that a run saved is equal to a run scored.

12-24-2009, 05:46 PM	#16
boblight24 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Beyond Is Where I Roam Posts: 554 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Well it is overwhelmingly apparent that the community thinks that pitching is more important. Now, which attribute of a pitcher is the most important: the GB/FB ratio, Stuff, Control, or Movement? __________________ "No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." ~Tommy Lasorda "Good is not good enough, when better is expected." ~Vin Scully Last edited by boblight24; 12-24-2009 at 06:09 PM.

12-24-2009, 06:58 PM	#19
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	I tend to like high GB%, good control, and high velocity in that order. But it's really about the stats, not the ratings.

12-24-2009, 07:05 PM	#20
Daern Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 148	I've won championships with balanced teams, all-pitching/defense teams, and Harvey's-Wallbangers-style teams. Of them all, I prefer the defensive/pitching, merely because I find them easier to build and succeed with. GB%m definitely, especially with a nice IF. __________________ UNDERGROUND BASEBALL LEAGUE: (Havana Rovers) 2009: 99-63 (Pennant Winners) 2010: 87-75 (Division Winners) 2011: 92-70 (Division Winners) 2012: 104-58 (Pennant Winners) 2013: 69-93 (4th Place) 2014: 108-54 (Pennant Winners) 2015: 115-47 (Pennant Winners) 2016: 95-67 (Pennant Winners) 2017: 94-68 (CHAMPIONS) 2018: 104-58 (Pennant Winners) 2019: 119-43 (Pennant Winners) 2020: 121-41 (CHAMPIONS) 2021: 86-76 (Wild Card) 2022: Who knows?